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Old 07-17-2018, 04:32 PM   #1
craftsman70
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Default Question about adding r134a refridgerant

I bought a set of manifold gauges so I can test the AC in my 98 SL1. Most videos and instructions are the same: Hook up the high and low side with the valves off at the manifold to check the pressure. Then if its low, connect a can to the yellow line and open the low side valve at the manifold. So here is my question: Starting out, all the lines are going to have air in them. Won't adding refrigerant this way push a small amount of air/moisture into the system? Is there some way to prime so I don't push the air into the system?

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Old 07-17-2018, 05:06 PM   #2
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Default Re: Question about adding r134a refridgerant

Yes, and that's an astute observation. The EPA allows us to leak a small amount of refrigerant into the atmosphere to purge air from the line. A "diminutive" amount can be leaked by slightly unscrewing the fitting at the manifold and allowing air line the line to purge.

BTW: I would look at both sides before deciding to add refrigerant. That's to determine if there is a blockage and the health of the compressor.

-Robert

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Old 07-17-2018, 05:28 PM   #3
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Default Re: Question about adding r134a refridgerant

1. Purge is the key word for 'priming' gauges and hoses to rid them of air and moisture. Anyone unfamiliar with refrigeration may open a can of worms if not prepared for a steep learning curve. Refrigeration is not a casual routine for anyone unless you're willing to learn something totally unrelated to car maintenance.

This isn't a scare tactic but a warning about connecting gauges to vehicle ac systems. The moment anyone, without familiarity about refrigeration, connects gauges to ac systems, that person automatically assumes all risks to personal injury and becomes the ac repairman. You are keen enough to know air and moisture are in gauges and hoses to consider the possibility of a system drawing them in. That is correct. An operating system is always pressurized whether or not its running. The moment gauges are connected, refrigerant pressurizes hoses and gauges. Purging is part of refrigeration practices to rid connections of air/moisture by cracking open valves or screw on fittings. If refrigerant in a system pressurizes gauge hoses then procedural steps are followed. You can google for procedures. It's not secret information.

Connect hoses and gauges to low and high side service valves on a car. Manifold valves should be shut. Open the service valve on each quick coupler to allow system refrigerant to pressurize hoses and gauges. Unscrew low side hose connection on the manifold until refrigerant is heard seeping out for two seconds then screw on the hose. This purges the low side/blue line. Repeat this for the high side/red line. The only line not purged is the center yellow line. Purge the yellow line when a source of r134a is connected to it before opening low or high side valves to feed refrigerant into a system.

When ac is running, the compressor will suck refrigerant or air/moisture from whatever is connected to the suction side.

2. Presuming you're intentions are to measure pressures on your S-series (its important to state what model) car, the engine must be run at 2k rpm, not idle, when checking system pressures. Pressures vary in proportion to engine/compressor rpm. GM specifies 2k rpm when measuring ac pressures. Don't even think of stating idle rpm ac pressures. They're useless but if you are observant, notice gauge pressures with ac on at idle and as rpm is raised. If you see varying pressures then you just observed varying operating pressures few are willing to observe to learn something about refrigeration.

Last edited by fdryer; 07-17-2018 at 05:35 PM..

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Old 07-17-2018, 05:55 PM   #4
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Default Re: Question about adding r134a refridgerant

I tee the vacuum into the yellow line and pull a vacuum on everything (R134 tank valve closed, of course). Or, if I'm just adding to a low system, I crack the lines right down at the red/blue couplers, as already suggested.

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Old 07-17-2018, 06:05 PM   #5
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Default Re: Question about adding r134a refridgerant

FDryer...et al...

Do the pressures tend to increase (hi and lo side) when RPM goes up to 2k? (it would seem so)

What would it mean for the A/C system (when increasing RPM to 2k):
If no change in pressure?
If reduced pressure?

---

Also, if pressures at 2k RPM are higher than ideal (from temp/psi tables?) for a given outside temperature, what do you recommend to do to "reduce" the pressures to the appropriate range for the outside temp?

Release/collect from the lo side or hi side?
Release/collect with engine off then measure again at 2k RPM?

---

Just want to know more about safe practices for the system and A/C symptoms.

Thank you for the detailed procedure on using the gauges, I now understand that it is important to follow to prevent air/moisture from entering the system.

My A/C has been running fine (struggles on Hot Texas days) since I replaced the compressor (from a 96' SC2 DOHC oem)
almost 10 years ago. I replaced the TXV (thermal expansion valve), all o-rings and dryer.
Still using same condenser, evaporator and used compressor.
Thanks to you and others for your advice, during my A/C overhaul.

...
Re-Animated: 2015-08-18, 220,497 + 21,000 Miles
1996 SC2 DOHC, Manual, 220k, 36mpg Hwy

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Old 07-17-2018, 06:17 PM   #6
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Default Re: Question about adding r134a refridgerant

Its hard to make broad statements without knowing more. Refrigeration can be somewhat complex. If pressures are unusually high on BOTH sides I'd feel the lines to see if one is freezing. No change with RPM would be strange unless its just always low on both sides, the compressor could be bad.

-Robert

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Old 07-17-2018, 07:25 PM   #7
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Default Re: Question about adding r134a refridgerant

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenpeters View Post
...Do the pressures tend to increase (hi and lo side) when RPM goes up to 2k? (it would seem so)..
First, basic refrigeration fundamentals are mandatory so you have a basis for questions otherwise a free wheeling question and answer session simply goes nowhere since fundamentals are ignored/overlooked/not worth knowing. To appreciate refrigeration requires understanding refrigeration basics.

If you have the basics of refrigeration then and only then can your question be answered. Start with assumptions of a correctly operating system, not one that's not working correctly as in depth questions about a poorly operating one doesn't help at all when a problem isn't identified and questions are out of context (working opposed to non working system). In a working system (the reason for fundamentals) two wholly different refrigeration systems exists. One is the standing refrigeration system (refrigerators, central hvac, commercial refrigerators, railroad cars, long haul trucks) running at one fixed compressor speed and vehicle ac refrigeration where the compressor runs at varying speeds from the belt drive system. Fixed compressor speed means pressures are operating in a very narrow range. Varying compressor speed as in almost every vehicle (Tesla and other electric vehicles may be the exceptions and run single speed compressors with a separate electric motor) will have varying pressures in direct and indirect proportion to compressor speeds.

Presuming ac operating pressures in this discussion are about vehicles with varying engine and compressor speeds, low and high side pressures will vary so a specific engine rpm is used from service manual recommendations. A fixed engine rpm means a fixed compressor rpm and low/high side pressures stabilize. At a fixed and specified rpm, low side pressures should be between 25-35 psi, high side pressures will vary between 150-250+ psi relative to ambient temperatures and humidity. Heat loads are greater in higher temperatures/higher humidity, lower with one or both lower to affect high side pressures. The one near constant is low side staying below 35 psi as a direct result of the thermal expansion valve controlling refrigerant feed to control temperatures in the evaporator coils. Ideally, the txv metering refrigerant to provide one or two degrees above freezing, 32F without creating ice forming a block of frozen ice to stop air flow is the target of all vehicle ac systems. Technically, refrigeration temperature/pressure charts are used for each refrigerant. R12 has different operating temperatures and pressures compared to r134a. Each refrigerant has its own temperature/pressure chart.

If you observe operating pressures (in a normal system), watch what the two needles do as engine rpm changes. If needle movement confuses you, this is what isn't discussed in open forums as varying pressures are deep into refrigeration fundamentals and isn't about something wrong. Remember, this is a car forum, not a mvac forum where its all about ac problems in every vehicle. Mvac forums are staffed by resident pros experienced in vehicle ac systems and answer any question related to almost any vehicle with ac problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenpeters View Post
What would it mean for the A/C system (when increasing RPM to 2k):If no change in pressure?
In general, if pressures don't stabilize at low and high, the most likely reason is the system lost refrigerant, the leak no one wants to search for with a uv blacklight, the first tool to use before connecting gauges. Gauges requires knowing refrigeration basics as well as interpreting gauge readings. A simple uv light doesn't require knowledge of refrigeration. Dye leaks out and marks where a leak occurred whether from damaged parts or worn valve cores. Leaks are approximately 98% of vehicle ac system problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenpeters View Post
If reduced pressure?
Same answer as previously stated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenpeters View Post
Also, if pressures at 2k RPM are higher than ideal (from temp/psi tables?) for a given outside temperature, what do you recommend to do to "reduce" the pressures to the appropriate range for the outside temp?
This rarely occurs but when it does is usually from over filling a system. Repair shops are legally required to remove refrigerant into a reclamation canister with a vacuum pump. Understanding how refrigeration works and working within environmental laws to prevent/minimize releasing refrigerant simply means using knowledge of refrigeration to prevent over filling a system.

Its rare to find anyone proving compressor or thermal expansion valve failure because the leak that was ignored and the main reason for a compressor or txv failure are blamed are corrected as soon as refrigerant is installed. Compressors and thermal expansion valves cannot work with less than the full amount of refrigerant in a system. Guess what happens when refrigerant leaks out? Unfamiliarity is the main reason for many to replace compressors and txv. And repairs shops go along with misleading/misinformation since higher profits are made replacing major parts.........that are in working condition.

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Old 07-17-2018, 08:04 PM   #8
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Default Re: Question about adding r134a refridgerant

FDryer
I can't tell if I'm getting on your nerves or not, my apologies if I am...

I'm not familiar with the "dynamic" behaviour of Motor Vehicle A/C to predict the outcomes of RPM.
I would think that these systems are designed for dynamic behaviour of the RPM's of the engine, but what parts exactly compensate and temper the pressures (lo & hi sides) was not revealed to me in my studies.
I suspect some combo action of the compressor and TXV.

"At a fixed and specified rpm, low side pressures should be between 25-35 psi, high side pressures will vary between 150-250+ psi relative to ambient temperatures and humidity."

My system reads this, all good.

---

A lot of folks overcharge, because...
"more refrigerant means colder, right?"....

If I understand correctly the Pressure-Temp relationship table I have, a higher pressure (induced perhaps by putting in too much refrigerant) could lead to a warmer evaporator, which may not absorb enough heat to cool the compartment.

Too little refrigerant could lead to icing of the evap core going below 32F in the presence of high humidity.

"Its rare to find anyone proving compressor or thermal expansion valve failure because the leak that was ignored and the main reason for a compressor or txv failure are blamed are corrected as soon as refrigerant is installed. "

Only to leak out eventually....

In my case 10 years ago and dumber, I think I overcharged, like you said, by being unaware of what a leak does to a system.
The compressor exploded UV muck all over me....

---

Do you recommend a forum that handles motor vehicle A/C, perhaps specialising in GM systems like our Saturns?

Thank you for your advice.

...
Re-Animated: 2015-08-18, 220,497 + 21,000 Miles
1996 SC2 DOHC, Manual, 220k, 36mpg Hwy

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Old 07-17-2018, 10:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: Question about adding r134a refridgerant

You might try <autoacforum. com>

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Old 07-18-2018, 01:52 AM   #10
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Default Re: Question about adding r134a refridgerant

jasenpeters, more can be learned about refrigeration than whatever I write here. There are some that insist on waxing poetic using terms like superheat, latent heat of vaporization, saturation, subcooling, etc, impressing many without transferring practical knowledge. The HVAC community uses those terms. I prefer terms without ambiguity for practical discussions - a person ready to accept immediate info to understand complex operations. It's much more difficult to explain refrigeration without technical terms. Engineering requires a broader view incorporating a deeper definition of certain processes. I'm of the opinion that the average diyer isn't interested in engineering level discussions when faced with a broken ac system and needs the simplest explanations to understand what occurred and what's required to make ac cold again. autoacforum.com is an excellent place to read and ask questions. They have the expertise for almost every ac system, Saturns included.

Vehicle ac systems are a little more complicated for several reasons, one is varying compressor speed. Refrigeration usually relies on a fixed compressor speed but with portable ac systems running compressors from engine power, varying engine rpm changes from a fixed compressor speed to dynamic operation requiring a different mechanism to accomplish the same thing, cool the interior. Each car company invented their own way to make cold air by creating thermal expansion valves, pilot absolute valves, throttle valves and orifice tubes. Each one metering liquid refrigerant at a set rate to allow liquid refrigerant to flash into its gaseous state when entering the evaporator coil section while absorbing heat from the evap surfaces. Blower speed transfers hot air into cold. The engineering miracle are the people settling on a few ingenious designs. GM uses thermal expansion valves for r12 and r134a. One of the problems with varying compressor speeds - compressed refrigerant is banked in the condenser coil as a liquid but as the liquid to gas change occurs, gas in evaporator coils must be removed in order to allow a continuous flow of liquid to gas process to continue the cooling process. At idle and low vehicle speed, compressor speed is low so the suction side can't remove gases soaked with heat - the interior begins to warm up. Compressors are redesigned to vary displacement to accommodate slow compressor speed in order to pull gases from the evaporator coils. Unless gases are continually suctioned at some predesigned rate, suctioning at a lower rate translates to losing cooling until a vehicle begins accelerating where engine rpm is above idle. The opposite occurs with high engine rpm where suction and compressed refrigerant occurs too fast. At least two compressor designs vary displacement thru mechanical means to modulate the volume of refrigerant into and out of them. Again, varying engine speeds complicates the refrigeration process. Saturn uses vane and scroll compressors, each with their own pros and cons. Another variable affecting vehicle refrigeration - the glass house effect of the interior absorbing infrared heat where ac might be the equivalent of a 30,000 BTU unit.

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Old 07-18-2018, 08:03 AM   #11
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Default Re: Question about adding r134a refridgerant

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenpeters View Post
FDryer
I can't tell if I'm getting on your nerves or not, my apologies if I am...

I'm not familiar with the "dynamic" behaviour of Motor Vehicle A/C to predict the outcomes of RPM.
I would think that these systems are designed for dynamic behaviour of the RPM's of the engine, but what parts exactly compensate and temper the pressures (lo & hi sides) was not revealed to me in my studies.
I suspect some combo action of the compressor and TXV.

"At a fixed and specified rpm, low side pressures should be between 25-35 psi, high side pressures will vary between 150-250+ psi relative to ambient temperatures and humidity."

My system reads this, all good.

---

A lot of folks overcharge, because...
"more refrigerant means colder, right?"....

If I understand correctly the Pressure-Temp relationship table I have, a higher pressure (induced perhaps by putting in too much refrigerant) could lead to a warmer evaporator, which may not absorb enough heat to cool the compartment.

Too little refrigerant could lead to icing of the evap core going below 32F in the presence of high humidity.

"Its rare to find anyone proving compressor or thermal expansion valve failure because the leak that was ignored and the main reason for a compressor or txv failure are blamed are corrected as soon as refrigerant is installed. "

Only to leak out eventually....

In my case 10 years ago and dumber, I think I overcharged, like you said, by being unaware of what a leak does to a system.
The compressor exploded UV muck all over me....

---

Do you recommend a forum that handles motor vehicle A/C, perhaps specialising in GM systems like our Saturns?

Thank you for your advice.
Just to answer your last question. The Saturn compressor is unique and not used in any other common automotive application. The original manufacturer is out of the business of making that compressor or rebuilding them. There are other variable displacement systems in automotive use but are not that common due to the increased mechanical complexity. If you want to know exactly how the A/C system functions then google "Carnot cycle", try this for starters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_cycle

The common confusion factor with any automotive system is the variable engine RPM and differences in the specific design. This makes all of these magic pressure readings at best only indicators.

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Old 07-18-2018, 02:24 PM   #12
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Default Re: Question about adding r134a refridgerant

Fdryer, Thanks for the info and for setting me straight on the terminology. Once I started searching for Purge Manifold Gauges rather than Prime, I found a lot of info.

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Old 07-18-2018, 02:29 PM   #13
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Default Re: Question about adding r134a refridgerant

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Just to answer your last question. The Saturn compressor is unique and not used in any other common automotive application. The original manufacturer is out of the business of making that compressor or rebuilding them.
A few follow-up questions about the Zexel? compressors:

1) Was there some reason this compressor was selected by GM in the first place? Is it noticeably more efficient than other compressor designs?

2) There are 3rd parties like GPD, Four Seasons, and AC Delco that offer remanufactured compressors, but these seem to have very mixed reviews regarding longevity. Are there other remanufacturers that folks have good experience with?

3) Are there other R134a compressors from the GM parts bin that can be made to mount/fit an S-series?

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