SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series Tech
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-20-2017, 01:57 PM   #1
2000sl1blue
Member
2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 179

2000 SL1
2007 SKY Red Line
Default A CM off TDC for timing

I finally got around to getting my woodruff key back and onto my new crankshaft. Now at this point I put back on the crankshaft pulley and attempted to turn it about a CM so it would line up perfectly to TDC markings. The issue is no matter how much weight I put on that big bolt the crank doesn't turn! And it hardly needs to move a CM. Anybody have any tips? Is it even needed to be on center? It's aligned more or less just not perfectly centered.. Spark plugs are out

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to 2000sl1blue's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help 2000sl1blue reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
2000sl1blue is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 08-20-2017, 03:09 PM   #2
2000sl1blue
Member
2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 179

2000 SL1
2007 SKY Red Line
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

I went and bought an 18" 1/2 extension and used a 3' piece of pipe on my breaker bar with all 200lbs of my weight.. It won't budge, not even a little bit. I am in neutral and my clutch feels normal when pressed in. The engine has been sitting rebuild with no oil for about a week or so no, could something have bound?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to 2000sl1blue's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help 2000sl1blue reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
2000sl1blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2017, 04:25 PM   #3
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 65,027
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

Did you use assembly lube on the rod and main bearings with NOTHING on the back side? Did you check that the crank would turn after the mains were in and torqued? Did you check after each rod bearing pair was assembled that it would turn? Did it turn when you installed the timing chain? If YES for all then pull plugs and put about a tablespoon of good clean 5w-30 into each cylinder and let it set over night.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2017, 04:28 PM   #4
2000sl1blue
Member
2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 179

2000 SL1
2007 SKY Red Line
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

I used assembly lube and none on the back of bearings. After installing the pistons/rods an all I didn't try to rotate anything, so I have no idea. I'm fairly sure that with the pistons in it likely wouldn't have moved easily as it was fairly hard to press in the pistons

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to 2000sl1blue's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help 2000sl1blue reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
2000sl1blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2017, 04:53 PM   #5
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 65,027
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

Did you use assembly lube on the cylinder walls? If NO then try the oil and soak.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2017, 06:10 PM   #6
billr
Master Member
billr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,529
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

Resist any urge to try cranking it with the starter. If you can't get it to rotate by hand, something is "not optimal" in this rebuild. Don't risk damage to these new parts by forcing the crank to turn.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to billr's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help billr reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
billr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2017, 09:40 AM   #7
2000sl1blue
Member
2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 179

2000 SL1
2007 SKY Red Line
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

I didn't lube the walls "/ I'm gonna try the oil soak and hope for the best

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to 2000sl1blue's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help 2000sl1blue reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
2000sl1blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2017, 11:57 AM   #8
billr
Master Member
billr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,529
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

I suggest using GM-type ATF (Dex3) for that soak, it seems to migrate everywhere easier than engine/hydraulic oils. Use plenty, just be sure to turn the engine (if you can!) several rotations with the plugs out to purge it enough to prevent hydraulic-lock when the plugs are back in.

PS: you used no oil at all on the pistons/rings when installing them? That must have been a "painful insertion"! I have to push pretty hard on pistons to get them through a ring compressor even when well-slobbered with oil. No turning of the crank with the first two pistons in to get easier access to the other two rod caps?

Last edited by billr; 08-21-2017 at 12:04 PM..

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to billr's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help billr reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
billr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2017, 05:28 PM   #9
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 65,027
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

Use engine oil, not ATF. Keep the ATF out of a new engine. The oil will properly lube the rings. As you did not lube the cylinders before the piston/ring install give it a couple of days soak time.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2017, 06:50 PM   #10
billr
Master Member
billr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,529
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

How about this for a compromise?

Use ATF first, then follow up with a dosing of oil. If the oil will get into everywhere, then it will flush out the ATF. If the oil won't get everywhere, ATF is better than nothing...

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to billr's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help billr reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
billr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2017, 08:04 PM   #11
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 65,027
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

This engine is already bound up by tight cylinder clearances and no lubrication. Tight bearings are also a possibility. Using a low film strength friction modified lube (ATF) is just not a good idea at this point as scored cylinder walls and potentially wiped bearing(s) is not worth the risk. If you wanted to use a low viscosity oil then a product that has decent film strength such as KROIL would be my choice.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 07:45 PM   #12
2000sl1blue
Member
2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 179

2000 SL1
2007 SKY Red Line
Mad Re: A CM off TDC for timing

Well I've been refilling each cylinder with 5w30 the past couple of days to get them lubed up. Since no I didn't lube those walls.. I just went and tried again, I used my breaker bar, and broke the bars socket converter haha!!! Didn't budge even a little though.. I really don't wanna pull out the engine again lol

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to 2000sl1blue's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help 2000sl1blue reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
2000sl1blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 08:16 PM   #13
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 41,354
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

Did you try turning the crankshaft in the opposite direction? If timing was off just enough to have one piston meet one valve, the engine won't turn any further. Backing off in the other direction without resistance would verify a mistake in timing.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 08:42 PM   #14
2000sl1blue
Member
2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 179

2000 SL1
2007 SKY Red Line
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

When I go counter clockwise the bolt just loosens. And right now I don't actually have the rockers on the springs. I'm desperate so I just tried the ATF fluid.. Worse case it works, worst it doesn't and I leave the car here as a parts car haha....

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to 2000sl1blue's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help 2000sl1blue reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
2000sl1blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 08:50 PM   #15
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 65,027
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

What usually causes this is there is either a couple rod and/or main bearings that are tight, it does not take much at 0 or 180 degrees to lock it right up.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 11:03 PM   #16
billr
Master Member
billr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,529
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

"Socket converter"? Do you mean an adapter to use a 3/8"- drive socket on a 1/2" breaker-bar, with an extender (pipe) on the breaker? Yeah, that often doesn't work out well. I've had to do it too, but had similar results in some cases.

Back to the real problem...
You could probably determine what is wrong with the engine still in the car, by pulling the pan, loosening bearing caps, and fussing with pistons/rod to see what is bound up. However, the binding may well be in the piston/ring/cylinder surfaces and fixing that would require removing the head again and checking everything over carefully. I recommend pulling the engine and doing a bunch of inspection and then re-assembly, hopefully using most of the same "new" parts that you already have.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to billr's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help billr reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
billr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 11:50 PM   #17
2000sl1blue
Member
2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 179

2000 SL1
2007 SKY Red Line
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

Is it possible to pull the pan with the engine in the car? It seems like the bolts for the pan aren't able to be accessed next to the flywheel. And I'm never pulling another engine again now even to salvage this rebuild hahahaha. I'm willing to drop the pan again, but I don't know how much further I'll go. I might just hook it to the starter and see what happens at this point

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to 2000sl1blue's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help 2000sl1blue reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
2000sl1blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 12:07 AM   #18
2000sl1blue
Member
2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about2000sl1blue has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 179

2000 SL1
2007 SKY Red Line
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

I think I did all caps to 33-36 ft lbs

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to 2000sl1blue's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help 2000sl1blue reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
2000sl1blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 12:35 AM   #19
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 41,354
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000sl1blue View Post
When I go counter clockwise the bolt just loosens. And right now I don't actually have the rockers on the springs. I'm desperate so I just tried the ATF fluid.. Worse case it works, worst it doesn't and I leave the car here as a parts car haha....
You'll need some imagination to turn the crankshaft in the opposite direction.....

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 07:27 AM   #20
billysvue
Master Member
billysvue is a jewel in the roughbillysvue is a jewel in the roughbillysvue is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: san diego
Posts: 4,355

2005 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: A CM off TDC for timing

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000sl1blue View Post
I might just hook it to the starter and see what happens at this point
That would be like driving it off a cliff. Nothing good can come of using the starter if you can't turn the motor over by hand.
Pistons and valve are kissing or bearings are tight, somewhere.
Got Plastigauge?

...
'05 ,2.2L, FWD,5-speed stick with transaxle death rattle is history,,,
'17 Suby Forester

245216 mi. VUe is off to the dealer auction
I'm a secondhand vegetarian.
Cows eat grass, I eat cows.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to billysvue's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help billysvue reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
billysvue is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
crank position for timing without removing the timing cover 03232001 S-Series Tech 9 10-03-2015 06:59 PM
sounds like the timing chain coming in contact with timing cover prioris S-Series Tech 3 12-08-2012 01:12 AM
timing chain sounds like it could be coming into contact with timing cover prioris Sky Tech 0 12-07-2012 10:31 PM
Timing Chain Replacement - Trouble Setting Timing neeco S-Series General 13 10-31-2011 02:02 PM
Help! - Timing Belt L81 - AC Delco -Rock Auto Kit - Timing Mark Question oldvue Vue Tech 5 09-16-2010 04:55 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:38 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.