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Old 08-04-2011, 07:25 AM   #41
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Just beat the edge of the seal with a hammer and screwdriver. Then pry it out.

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Old 08-04-2011, 08:00 AM   #42
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Assault with a blunt implement.

That sounds similar to the standard job plan: Cut to shape, beat to fit, paint to match.

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Old 08-04-2011, 10:30 AM   #43
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Looks like the key to this is to break the RTV bond around the edges first. I already have the seals in a couple of pieces with the seal cover taken off. Somewhere in my toolbox I have something appropriately thin to go around the edge.

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 08-06-2011, 07:39 PM   #44
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Sledgehammer and screwdriver does the trick.
Hope to get the new seals installed tonight and the subframe/swaybar assembly together.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg TransmissionSealsLandR.JPG (74.0 KB, 25 views)

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 08-06-2011, 08:37 PM   #45
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Quote:
Originally Posted by macbox View Post
Sledgehammer and screwdriver does the trick.
Hope to get the new seals installed tonight and the subframe/swaybar assembly together.
That pretty much does it every time. Its not like your saving them for anything.

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Old 08-07-2011, 12:13 AM   #46
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Transmission output seals are in, I used the copper high temp for RTV, should work nicely. I'll have to clean up the right side since I left it a little messy.

In the first pic below, I was curious what the snap ring was inside the left side of the transmission, in the 1995 Manual Transaxle FSM, Page 113, it is identified in item #038 as "Ring-Diff", so this is the outer retainer for the left side of the differential. I didn't think it was something I messed up, but it seemed like an unusual place for a snap ring, this must be the part that keeps the output shaft bearing in place, which is next in line behind it, and is listed as item #54 on the same page.

The next two pix are the completed Left and Right transmission seals.

Other notes:
Started putting the subframe/control arm/sway bar assembly together, and discovered that the bolt I have from the hardware store is 5mm too short, so I need to go back to the hardware store to get a longer one.

Melling oil pump kit part # K196 comes with screws, so I don't need to clean the loctite/sealant out of the threads of the old ones.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SnapRingInsideLsideTransm.jpg (35.1 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg Left side of tranny, seal on, 98SW2.jpg (31.1 KB, 27 views)
File Type: jpg Right side of tranny, seal on, 98SW2.jpg (30.5 KB, 30 views)

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 08-07-2011, 12:20 AM   #47
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

First picture is a preload shim. Keeps the balls tight....

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Old 08-07-2011, 08:11 AM   #48
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

What happens if you have loose balls? I'm not sure that I want mine tight.

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Old 08-07-2011, 08:16 AM   #49
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyhop View Post
What happens if you have loose balls? I'm not sure that I want mine tight.
LOL, I wasn't going to say anything, I knew it was ripe for comment.

If I didn't have to work today, I could get rings end-gapped during the middle of the day, but it will have to wait.

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 08-09-2011, 01:02 AM   #50
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Still tracking down tools. I've looked a couple of places for the fiber brush for the head bolt holes in the block, sporting goods and normal tool places don't have them, so it's off to the gun shop to look for a nylon brush. Picked up a piston ring expander at NAPA today for $7, and then spent 30 minutes outside NAPA shooting the breeze with a man who runs a mobile oil change business, that was fun.

Next up for tasks:
*Assemble subframe and suspension components and mount to space frame.
Torque values in Ft Lbs:
LCA to Cradle bolt: 92
LCA to Cradle nut: 74
Control Arm to Sway Bar: 106
Sway Bar bracket to Cradle: 103
Control Arm ball stud to steering knuckle: 103

*Measure and set the oil control ring gap for the 1st and second rings:
These values are from the 1995 Factory Service Manual:
First ring: .0098-.0157 in / .24-.4mm
Second ring: .0098-.0197 in / .25-.5mm
Oil ring: side rail: .0098-.0492 in / .25-1.25mm

FSM says to move the rings 4" into the bore and measure the end gap there with a feeler guage. The shop said I only had to check one set of rings since they are within 1/5 of .001 of each other, but since it is all apart right now, I'll be checking them and putting that information in my notes.
Pistons are Keith Black Silv-O-Lite 1902HC+ STD, rings are Hastings that the shop specc'd, main and rod bearings are Clevite.
- There has been some discussion about the appropriateness of KB pistons, and some don't like them since there have been very scattered reports of the tops of the pistons breaking.
- However, the shop has had a very difficult time getting consistency out of the Federal Mogul/Sealed Power pistons, and will not even use Sealed Power anymore.
- Since QC has been an issue with FM/SP, I am inclined to side with the shop. Further evidence of FM QC issues is somewhere on this forum where a member had trouble getting the Sealed Power bearings in good condition since they were not packed correctly and scratched each other in transit.
- Additionally, the ring end gap plays a part in this, and if the engine is used in high performance applications the ring gap should be increased. To quote the sheet that comes with the Silv-O-Lite pistons, "high performance, heavy towing or marine applications may require an increase in ring end gap of 20% to 40% of the top ring only".
- Since there is little to no empirical information that I can easily dig up that is applicable to the Saturn 1.9 LL0 specifically in regards to piston top ring land breakage, I'll use the KB/Silv-O-Lites and be the guinea pig.
- Given the above information, should I stick with the factory ring gap of .0098-.0157 in?

More tasks:
* Install crankshaft front and rear seals.
(?) FSM says to use oil to help seat the seals into the timing cover and rear seal carrier.
- Shouldn't RTV be used here instead to prevent leaks?
- Any special tips to install the rear main seal? FSM says not to install it with a hammer.

* Install Melling oil pump (PN K196) into timing cover, chamfer down. Lube with assembly lube to facilitate priming. Install oil pump cover to timing cover. Torque to 97 in-lbs.

* Clean crud out of the threads for the timing cover bolts with a dental pick.

* Clean and prepare the assembly area for block assembly.

Anything I've overlooked? Getting these tasks out of the way will put me in a good position to get the bottom half together.

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 08-09-2011, 01:40 AM   #51
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

I called gun shops in my area and they told me they dont even stock nylon brushes anymore. Nobody wants them anymore in place of the more desirable types of brushes people use now a days for their guns.

Google "mr gasket #1211" and you will get plenty hits for nylon.

I traced mine to a "racing" auto parts store; it cost $10 for 3 different sizes.
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Old 08-09-2011, 01:52 AM   #52
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Brushes, 3 day delivery. http://www.mcmaster.com/#tube-hand-brushes/=djg1vr Use horse hair and jut clip th loop off the end and chuck up in the variable speed drill. Flood with brake cleaner and brush for effect. Nylon works as long as you remember it will melt. They have others. This place has them but you end up buying a bunch but they are cheap. You want the 1200 manual bristle brushes. https://www.solobrushes.com/producti...&CrossRefID=91

Harbor Freight even sells an assortment. http://www.harborfreight.com/9-piece...set-90631.html

Avoid brass, abrasive loaded nylon, or steel brushes as aluminum abrades rapidly.

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Old 08-09-2011, 02:17 AM   #53
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Quote:
Originally Posted by macbox View Post
Still tracking down tools. I've looked a couple of places for the fiber brush for the head bolt holes in the block, sporting goods and normal tool places don't have them, so it's off to the gun shop to look for a nylon brush. See my post with links to nylon and bristle brushes. These will dig out the dead RTV in most cases. Picked up a piston ring expander at NAPA today for $7, and then spent 30 minutes outside NAPA shooting the breeze with a man who runs a mobile oil change business, that was fun.

Next up for tasks:
*Assemble subframe and suspension components and mount to space frame.
Torque values in Ft Lbs:
LCA to Cradle bolt: 92
LCA to Cradle nut: 74
Control Arm to Sway Bar: 106
Sway Bar bracket to Cradle: 103
Control Arm ball stud to steering knuckle: 103

*Measure and set the oil control ring gap for the 1st and second rings:
These values are from the 1995 Factory Service Manual:
First ring: .0098-.0157 in / .24-.4mm
Second ring: .0098-.0197 in / .25-.5mm
Oil ring: side rail: .0098-.0492 in / .25-1.25mm
Keep in mind this is for the OEM rings and a standard bore diameter. Go with your ring manufacturer.

FSM says to move the rings 4" into the bore and measure the end gap there with a feeler guage. Not required as you have fresh straight bores to deal with . Mid stroke is for a used bore. The shop said I only had to check one set of rings since they are within 1/5 of .001 of each other, but since it is all apart right now, I'll be checking them and putting that information in my notes. The only reason for checking any of them is to verify that they are the correct size for your cylinder. If all rings match on the bench then just check one. You will not be a happy camper if you scratch a cylinder wall.
Pistons are Keith Black Silv-O-Lite 1902HC+ STD, rings are Hastings that the shop specc'd, main and rod bearings are Clevite.
- There has been some discussion about the appropriateness of KB pistons, and some don't like them since there have been very scattered reports of the tops of the pistons breaking.
- However, the shop has had a very difficult time getting consistency out of the Federal Mogul/Sealed Power pistons, and will not even use Sealed Power anymore.
- Since QC has been an issue with FM/SP, I am inclined to side with the shop. Further evidence of FM QC issues is somewhere on this forum where a member had trouble getting the Sealed Power bearings in good condition since they were not packed correctly and scratched each other in transit.
- Additionally, the ring end gap plays a part in this, and if the engine is used in high performance applications the ring gap should be increased. To quote the sheet that comes with the Silv-O-Lite pistons, "high performance, heavy towing or marine applications may require an increase in ring end gap of 20% to 40% of the top ring only".
- Since there is little to no empirical information that I can easily dig up that is applicable to the Saturn 1.9 LL0 specifically in regards to piston top ring land breakage, I'll use the KB/Silv-O-Lites and be the guinea pig.
- Given the above information, should I stick with the factory ring gap of .0098-.0157 in? I don't see why not as I know where this "broken top land" story comes from. The Silv-O-Lite piston is the same type of alloy in the stock piston. Very few of those come apart in stock engines.

More tasks:
* Install crankshaft front and rear seals.
(?) FSM says to use oil to help seat the seals into the timing cover and rear seal carrier.
- Shouldn't RTV be used here instead to prevent leaks? No RTV.
- Any special tips to install the rear main seal? FSM says not to install it with a hammer. You have to either use a press and correctly support the seal and seal carrier or start it with your 12oz ball peen hammer and then finish seating it with a board so it does not twist up and distort. No RTV and light oil, just what you can wipe on with your hand. Heating the timing cover and seal carrier while chilling the seal will make life somewhat easier if you do not have a press. You can set the seals by walking around the perimeter with a 1/2X1" wood punch and taping the end as you go around.

* Install Melling oil pump (PN K196) into timing cover, chamfer down. Lube with assembly lube to facilitate priming. Install oil pump cover to timing cover. Torque to 97 in-lbs.

* Clean crud out of the threads for the timing cover bolts with a dental pick. Brush and drill works if you are lucky and don't forget the oil pan bolt holes.

* Clean and prepare the assembly area for block assembly.

Anything I've overlooked? Getting these tasks out of the way will put me in a good position to get the bottom half together.
Do not get assembly lube, oil or dirt between the back of the bearing shells and the block, bearing caps or rods. Really fouls up the clearances. You want the assembly area to be clean room clean. No dog or cat hair either. It is also recommended to lube th cylinder walls with assembly lube before installing pistons. Cover the rod bolts before install with rubber tubes. After installation give each piston a shot of 5w-30 engine oil as they are installed, I use 100% PAO synthetic for this.

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Old 08-09-2011, 03:43 PM   #54
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Keep in mind this is for the OEM rings and a standard bore diameter. Go with your ring manufacturer.
Made a quick phone call on my break. I just spoke with silvolite tech support, and they recommend a .019 end gap which is .0033 larger than factory max.
I don't know the actual Hastings part #, but I would be curious to see what Hastings would say as you point out.

Factory: First ring: .0098-.0157 in / .24-.4mm

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 08-09-2011, 04:11 PM   #55
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

You realize you will need the neat little hand grinder if you have to do all the rings. Usually it is only a top ring issue.

Stack the rings up and only check 1 for each grove and then match to the rest for that grove.

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Old 08-09-2011, 05:35 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
You realize you will need the neat little hand grinder if you have to do all the rings. Usually it is only a top ring issue.

Stack the rings up and only check 1 for each grove and then match to the rest for that grove.
I was hoping there was not yet another tool involved. I still need to measure them.
For the brushes I think I will go with the Harbor Freight since it is more easily available and the 5/16" size is a hair under 8mm, which is perfect.

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Old 08-09-2011, 09:50 PM   #57
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

The end gaps are larger than I thought. They measure .022, which is just over the .0157 upper limit of the factory spec + 40%, which is what silvolite says to gap the rings at. It is .003 larger than the .019 silvolite said over the phone today.

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 08-10-2011, 06:28 PM   #58
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Tube brushes from HF are in hand.

The machine shop that did the work pressed in the rear main and front seals.
I told them about the .022 ring end gap, and considering the guideline for the silvolite pistons puts the gap to be at .019, I should be fine.

Subframe is back in place.

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 08-10-2011, 06:42 PM   #59
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

You sound like you're just about ready for final re-assembly. I wish you luck, and will watch for updates!

~JP

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Old 08-10-2011, 06:49 PM   #60
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

The piston/ring manufacturers have conducted tests that demonstrate that engine performance does not suffer when the hot running end gap is in excess of 0.040 and all gaps are lined up vertically. The tests also show no noticeable change in blowby when all ring gaps are lined up vertically at any end gap.

The easy way to put those rings on the pistons is to use some 0.007 steel shim stock. Wrap just 1 turn around the piston and slide the ring down the shim. Let the shim stock cone slightly and the ring drops on the top and will slide over with no risk of springing the rings. Be sure you dress off any curled edge on the shim stock so you don't scratch anything. The shim stock is also sharp so keep blood off of clean steel and aluminum as it will cause corrosion.

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