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Old 06-16-2019, 10:48 PM   #1
bumpdraft
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Default Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

Where exactly are the actual sealing surfaces that seal against the hydraulic pressure?
I don’t think power steering hose fittings are the same as air conditioning hose fittings (although, they look the same).

More details:
I removed the rack and pinion unit in order to install new tie rod inners. When it was time to reinstall it, I was confused about the hose connections and where the “sealing” surfaces were exactly.

Here is the high pressure connection on the rack and pinion unit:


Here is the end of the high pressure hose:


(IMAGE BELOW )The brown O-ring was included with the high pressure hose I installed in 2016. Note the condition of the brown O-ring (image below).
Looking at the hose end and looking at the rack & pinion unit, I couldn’t tell where the actual pressure seal was designed to take place. So, starting with the size of the (chunked/failed) brown O-ring, I trial-fitted a few.


Based on the ones I tried and that obviously failed, the stick is pointing at the two O-rings I though most likely to work (image above).
The tiny green O-ring is from Harbor Freight.
The tiny black O-ring is from an Edelman rebuild kit, but the tiny black O-ring was not referenced anywhere in the generic instruction drawing in the kit. Two were included with the kit.

I tried the tiny green Harbor Freight O-ring and removed it to inspect it. It was cut (image below).


Finally, I installed the tiny O-ring that was in the Edelman rebuild kit (Image below)

I added P/S fluid and purged air from the system and the O-ring seems to be working (no leaks) so far.

Evidently, the Edelman rebuild kit had the correct O-ring. I don’t know if the O-ring just acts as a guide and the seal is somewhere else?
Did I even use the Edelman O-ring in the right location?

...
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Last edited by bumpdraft; 06-16-2019 at 10:53 PM..

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Old 06-17-2019, 12:23 AM   #2
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

I doubt an O-ring would ever be used as a guide.

The pictures posted aren't bad, but I still can't tell from them where the seal actually is, sorry.

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Old 06-17-2019, 02:07 AM   #3
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

There's nothing special about PS hose's over normal hydraulic hoses other than possibly GM/Saturn using proprietary connectors so they could charge extra for them. Wish I had realized that at the start of the job last time I worked on PS hose's, would have saved a ton of money as there was enough good steel left at the connector to "hack" generic cheap hose in.

Blue arrow on the rack pic is the sealing surface, red arrow on the hose is where the o-ring goes to provide the seal.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ps sealing surface.JPG (69.5 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg ps sealing surface-hose.JPG (45.5 KB, 9 views)

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Old 06-17-2019, 09:53 AM   #4
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

Hydraulic pressure, at idle, when turning the steering wheel and hitting the end stop spikes to 1200psi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
There's nothing special about PS hose's over normal hydraulic hoses other than possibly GM/Saturn using proprietary connectors so they could charge extra for them. Wish I had realized that at the start of the job last time I worked on PS hose's, would have saved a ton of money as there was enough good steel left at the connector to "hack" generic cheap hose in.

Blue arrow on the rack pic is the sealing surface, red arrow on the hose is where the o-ring goes to provide the seal.
I originally thought the blue arrow was the sealing surface, but look what happened to the brown O-ring. I think the O-ring has to fit into the chamfer at the inside edge of the blue arrow, meaning the green arrow (image below)

Inside the rack pic, the nut on the hose does not bottom. Follow the screw threads, the surface is dull.
The “upset” (wide part) of the H.P. hose bottoms inside the rack at the blue arrow surface.
What confused me was the size and failure of the brown O-ring and how much smaller the one in the Edelman kit was. I started to think the seal was on the end of the H.P. Hose

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
I doubt an O-ring would ever be used as a guide....
Thank you, I was questioning everything.

...
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Last edited by bumpdraft; 06-17-2019 at 10:03 AM..

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Old 06-17-2019, 10:52 AM   #5
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

The brown one looks too big, like it'd just be flopping around on the end of the hose. It's failure looks caused by this, it looks like it was pinched way off center and cut by the edge of the sealing surface.

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Old 06-17-2019, 12:18 PM   #6
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

O-ring is supposed to have a slight tension when rolled onto the end of the tube and be 1/16" diameter or smaller as it does get smashed flat if over tightened. This allows tightening the fitting tight enough just slightly compress the o-ring but not convert it into a 0.005" thick washer. All of this info is completely lacking from the FSM. This o-ring sealing system for 3500psi hydraulic systems is hidden in some general training document as it is widely used.

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Old 06-17-2019, 12:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

I gotta ask... what does the old hose end and seal look like? It is rare that a replacement will be different if the port it is going into isn't meant to be changed at the same time. (A/C compressor lines being one exception!).

Also, do you know that those O-rings you are using are meant to be use with PS/fluid? the green one is the one that caught my eye, I think of green as being for R134a and don't know if it holds up to other stuff. You can't rely on the color, though, there is no absolute standardization on that.

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Old 06-17-2019, 12:29 PM   #8
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

Viton is either black or brown. It works in oil.

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Old 06-17-2019, 03:19 PM   #9
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
I gotta ask... what does the old hose end and seal look like? It is rare that a replacement will be different if the port it is going into isn't meant to be changed at the same time. (A/C compressor lines being one exception!).

Also, do you know that those O-rings you are using are meant to be use with PS/fluid? the green one is the one that caught my eye, I think of green as being for R134a and don't know if it holds up to other stuff. You can't rely on the color, though, there is no absolute standardization on that.
O.K., I though I threw this away years ago This is the original H.P. Hose from the Saturn factory in Springhill.
It has more of a flair at the end. Definitely a different shape to it. Necked-down more where the O-ring sits, thereby allowing for a fatter O-ring? (Image below)


————————————————————————————————————————
General clarification: When I write, “aftermarket”, I mean that it is not AC Delco or Saturn Corp. or General Motors

...
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Last edited by bumpdraft; 06-17-2019 at 03:30 PM..

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Old 06-17-2019, 03:55 PM   #10
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

Yeah, that's kind of what I would expect for how it works; just couldn't tell for sure from the other pictures. With that config the important dimension is the OD of the O-ring when installed on the tube. It has to fit into the bore in the bore with the same "squeeze" on the OD as the original. The O-ring cross-section isn't critical, as long as squeeze on the ring OD/ID is proper.

I peeked at some O-ring listings, "Viton"-type material is standard in green, red, and white as well as the more-common black and brown. Those green rings you have may be fine, but you can't tell by the color alone.

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Old 06-17-2019, 06:04 PM   #11
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

The o-ring is to seal the tube in the nut, in the process it also seals the tube into whatever you are connecting to. The flat spot ring is what the nut seats against which limits the o-ring crush. If it is mashed flat it fails.

Need to know if the design is for a metric spec o-ring or an imperial spec o-ring as they are not interchangeable. The o-ring is not a compressed fit into the chamfer by design. When drawn up the o-ring is slightly compressed so that the inner and outer seal is made.

Last edited by OldNuc; 06-17-2019 at 06:11 PM..

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Old 06-17-2019, 06:15 PM   #12
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpdraft View Post
O.K., I though I threw this away years ago This is the original H.P. Hose from the Saturn factory in Springhill.
It has more of a flair at the end. Definitely a different shape to it. Necked-down more where the O-ring sits, thereby allowing for a fatter O-ring? (Image below)


————————————————————————————————————————
General clarification: When I write, “aftermarket”, I mean that it is not AC Delco or Saturn Corp. or General Motors
Remember, Saturn was robot assembled so that flair is required to hold the o-ring in place during handling. It is not a requirement for proper hand assembly.

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Old 06-17-2019, 07:54 PM   #13
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

Mechanical and hydraulic dimensions are probably two key issues here. Add possible incorrect male fittings not matching dimensions to fit into the threaded female ports on the r&p unit. I reviewed images a few times. The reason for some replacement O-rings damaged during installation may be incorrect outside diameter/wrong seals and/or nicked/deformed tubing surfaces providing sealing. Add incorrect male fittings and several sealing issues may occur all at once. I think O-rings fit inside holes and compressed to expand and seal. Nicked O-rings suggests outside diameters too large to fit or mismatched male to female fitting.

If the correct male fittings are matched to original, this leaves the formed tubing flare and O-ring dimensions; http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=233488. I don't mean the end flare but the formed flat flare partway in where the O-ring sits. This part provides a flat area for the O-ring to seat as well as allow compression of the O-ring in the female threaded port.

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Old 06-18-2019, 12:07 AM   #14
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Mechanical and hydraulic dimensions are probably two key issues here. Add possible incorrect male fittings not matching dimensions to fit into the threaded female ports on the r&p unit. I reviewed images a few times. The reason for some replacement O-rings damaged during installation may be incorrect outside diameter/wrong seals and/or nicked/deformed tubing surfaces providing sealing. Add incorrect male fittings and several sealing issues may occur all at once. I think O-rings fit inside holes and compressed to expand and seal. Nicked O-rings suggests outside diameters too large to fit or mismatched male to female fitting.

If the correct male fittings are matched to original, this leaves the formed tubing flare and O-ring dimensions; http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=233488. I don't mean the end flare but the formed flat flare partway in where the O-ring sits. This part provides a flat area for the O-ring to seat as well as allow compression of the O-ring in the female threaded port.
Thanks! You nailed it. The O-ring in the Edelman kit agrees with the link you provided.

Thank you everyone

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Old 06-18-2019, 12:18 AM   #15
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
The o-ring is to seal the tube in the nut, in the process it also seals the tube into whatever you are connecting to. The flat spot ring is what the nut seats against which limits the o-ring crush. If it is mashed flat it fails...
I think the nut (20 ft-lb torque) doesn’t contact anything but the threads and the tube. It holds the wide formed surface of the tube firmly against the rack. The nut doesn’t look like it bottoms in the threads.
This is an AC Delco. You can see the shadow where there was metal to metal contact:

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Old 06-18-2019, 08:32 AM   #16
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

Some do fit that way. There are several different designs of that elastomer sealed hydraulic connection. The o-ring and backing bubble is basically replacing the 37 degree flair and backing ring in the fitting. As I said, the first thing is to figure out what measuring system was used and then finding the correct o-ring size is relatively simple. In high pressure applications the outside of the o-ring has to be supported when pressure is applied or it will be extruded out of contact and there will be a leak.

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Old 06-19-2019, 09:22 PM   #17
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

I replaced a couple of Orings on GM hydraulic steering gear in '95 K35 pickup.
It seems like the same thing as represented in this thread, about a 5/16"-1/4" Oring, material a bit less than 1/16" thick.

And i recall they were viton; the GM dealer had them in stock.

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Old 06-20-2019, 08:34 AM   #18
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Default Re: Rack and Pinion High Pressure Sealing Surface?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomM96 View Post
I replaced a couple of Orings on GM hydraulic steering gear in '95 K35 pickup.
It seems like the same thing as represented in this thread, about a 5/16"-1/4" Oring, material a bit less than 1/16" thick.

And i recall they were viton; the GM dealer had them in stock.
Thanks, I will try to get some spares from the dealer.


Correction:
“Flare”


“Flair”


The extra flare in the O.E. P/S H.P. hose gives your S-Series more than the minimum flair.

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