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Old 04-30-2020, 12:17 PM   #61
BrandonKastning
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Default Re: 3.0 L PCV Valve Help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
The codes are...
PO154 - O2 Sensor circuit no activity detector Bank 2 Sensor 1
PO300 - Random/Multiple cylinder misfire detected

I verified the cable of the O2 sensor near the radiator is connected.

I suspect I need to buy an O2 sensor. Should I buy two for both exhaust manifolds? I believe they are the same sensor, correct? And, before and after the CAT are different and both different from one another.

When I cleaned the intakes, I know I got gunk and spray in the engine because it was very difficult to start. The O2 sensor could have been fouled up and now doesn't work. Do you agree?

Now, my battery is dead!
Rj,

https://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/20...en_sensor.html

I've purchased from these guys before. It shows which one for each stream per o2 sensor. Even if you don't purchase from them; it might help you find the right sensor.
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Old 05-09-2020, 07:11 AM   #62
Rj 2000 LS2
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Default Re: 3.0 L PCV Valve Help?

After replaced the main intake hose between the Plenum and the front runner... the engine started and ran perfectly! This is a case of doing too many repairs and Uncle Murphy's (Murphy's Law shat on me numerous times).

Once upon a time, at the beginning of February, I parked the vehicle after it started to puke oil on to the rear exhaust manifold making it impossible to drive without a gas mask! The burning oil fumes were intense. I feared it would start on fire. The oil was running like a river on the rear exhaust manifold. I studied the PCV system and determined there was excess blow-by causing gaskets to fail and oil to leak everywhere possible. I decided to replace the valve cover gaskets and rebuild PCV reed valve in an attempt to handle the blow-by crankcase pressure. I had to wait a long time for gaskets and reed valve viton rubber to arrive. It was weeks of down time and I didn't want to disassemble to engine and wait weeks to put it back together as this was my first time digging so deep in this engine. If too much time went by... I might forget how to put it back together!

I disassembled the top half of the engine just before the gaskets were suppose to arrive and then I got very sick in mid-February... I believe it was covid as both my wife and I got very ill. A week later I was on my feet again, rebuilt the PCV reed valve (1st time) and as I was finishing up the bolting up the engine lift brackets... the curse of Murphy punched me right in the face as I saw the front valve cover gasket hanging outside the front of the valve cover! Totally annoyed with myself that I messed up so badly, I was thinking to myself, "self - Why didn't you spot ATV to hold that gasket in place... you idiot"! Nevertheless, I took everything back apart... fixed the gasket and very carefully made damn sure everything remained in place... and then Murhy hit again! I broke off a valve cover gasket bolt with my crappy torque wrench! I went back to old school after that!

With every back together, I went to start the engine and it would not fire and the battery eventually went dead. Charged it over night and went to start it and good god man I never heard a more sickening wicked sounds as I did that day! I assumed it has something to due to the PCV rebuild. The engine was back firing, bouncing all round like crazy (as it did when the timing belt tensioner failed years ago) and couldn't hardly keep it running at an idle. I freaked thinking I destroyed my wife's Saturn! I felt sick! We bought the Saturn new in 2000. I was extremely down in the dumps and what makes it worse is I had to drive my wife everywhere because our other vehicle is a 1996 Dodge Ram 2500 manual transmission and she can't drive stick! At this point we were pumping $100+ per week for gas and then my crank position sensor when out on the truck! We were fuked! The dodge would shut off and be hard to start. It was still very cold outside so running bikes was out of the question1

Okay, we had to break down and buy a new vehicle, but my wife would NOT allow me to junk the Saturn even though I actually picked up the phone a few times to call the junk yard for pickup! After buying a new 2020 Yaris Hatchback for under 20K... and the gas mileage of this vehicle is outstanding like we have ever had before... in excess of 35-45 mpg... it literally sips on gas and it is fun car to drive. The pressure was off... so I managed to race the Saturn back into our single car apartment garage and took it all apart again! I didn't see much that looked wrong.

This time it was easier because I knew where the hidden bolts were. I worked slowly and tried to verify everything twice and threes times more. I rebuilt the PCV reed valve by sanding the thick piece of Viton rubber so it would very easily move unlike my first attempt. This was the third time I had the PCV Oil Separator off the engine. I reassembled everything working slowly to insure I didn't screw up. After a week of careful work, I went to start it up and it still ran like crap! It's junk I said and my wife said, "Fix it"! One day would run better than the next which didn't make any sense to me and it ran fine at high RPMs. So I finally broke down and ordered a Code Reader. For years I wanted and needed a Code Reader.

Covid lock down was in full bio-weapon political form at this point and shipments took forever to receive. We parked the Saturn in the lot and tire went flat and I had to remove the tire to refill the air at the gas station. First priority was to replace the crank position sensor on my truck. I thought the Saturn was hard to work on! Dodge put the crank position sensor in the worst location ever! In order to reach it, you have to lay on the engine and extend your left arm fully and then you can only put finger tips on the greasy bolts and you have to do it all by feel! I actually hurt my ribs badly doing this I was experiencing a lot of chest pain and I didn't dare go to see a doctor complaining of rib pains! I didn't want to be diagnosed as a covid patient and end up on a vent! I did slowly recover in a week's time.

After I felt better, I again managed to limp the Saturn into the garage by "flooring" it while I applied brakes. It would run great a high RPMs and buck horse wild under 1,500 RPMs. I pulled all the plugs, but didn't receive the borescope in time to visually inspect the cylinders for fear perhaps the timing belt failure a couple years aog returned or perhaps valves or piston are now damaged. I ordered a compression test kit at this point., but it never arrived in time. Another tool set I have wanted forever! I was truly reaching for straws at this point. Nothing and everything had to be considered as a possible fault. I again removed the Saturn from the single garage to safely house the Yaris from quickly approaching hail storms. The Saturn sat lonely in the lot and I wondered if I could fix it! The weather passed and I returned the Saturn to the garage for another tear down! At this point, I kept doing the same things over and over again expecting different results! You know, I was going insane!
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Old 05-09-2020, 07:14 AM   #63
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Default Re: 3.0 L PCV Valve Help?

Continued...

My Code Reader arrived so I reassembled the engine again to make use of the code reader. For the first time during all this... the engine light came ON... so I believed the code reader might help. The code was Oxygen Sensor B2S1 was failing. Cool, something concrete... I thought! I purchased an Oxygen Sensor from Oreilly's. Installed it and then ALL O2 Sensors were coding! I spent days fooling around with rabbit hole! I learned the difference between original Narrow band O2 sensors, Narrow band with pump O2 sensors and Wide band O2 sensors. I pinned out the O2 Sensor heater pins which are actually color coded wrong in service manuals, plus there were difference between all bank 2 O2 sensors. I decided to reinstall the original O2 Sensor and was able to recreate the "All O2 Sensors" coding out by simply connecting the new O2 sensor I purchased. I returned this sensor and Oreilly's offered me a new one, I said, "No way, I don't want to connect another one of those for fear it might take out my ECM!" They immediately refunded my money which I greatly appreciated! If I had to guess... it might have been the right part number, but it was the wrong device. This reminds me of when I purchase two new struts for the rear of the Saturn. They came in at the parts store... two new struts, same part number, but they were physically different! It took three tries to find two identical struts. Right, Wrong... I didn't care as long as both were identical. This taught me an important lesson that even correct parts numbers can be wrong because old parts get modified over the years, but the parts numbers remain the same.

I had just installed a new muffler about 7 miles driven before the Saturn started puking oil like beached whale! This made me think perhaps the exhaust could be pulled or maybe the CAT failed... It was logical to me to think perhaps the "exhaust" failed and that was causing the O2 Sensors to screw up. I removed the upstream O2 sensors and discovered we owned a stock car! Verooom! The apartment building tenants just love me! But, the engine still ran buck wild and it was embarrassing! The exhaust is working... next????

I did notice the front O2 sensor was black and the read sensor was white. Everything I was seeing was pointing toward a huge vacuum leak, but where? Symptoms: Engine fails to idle, Runs great at higher RPMs (over comes vaccum leak), black Bank 2 plugs/front O2 sensor. I don't have smoke machine, so I built one! The DIY smoke machine worked okay, but the smell of baby oil was so thick in air as if I changed 100 babies at once! And then I saw it... smoke rising from under the front bellow hose between the plenum and the front runner. I immediately remove the front runner and found a slit about 2" long! WTF!!! The front bank was sucking air like a fish out of water!

Conclusion: As Dfryer stated in Post 41, #2 There is no such thing as a stuck ON injector... the symptoms showed the ejectors were firing excessively because the B2S1 O2 sensor was reporting LEAN LEAN LEAN and the ECM was dumping gas into Bank 2 causing the massive rich condition turning everything on Bank 2 black. Also, it was likely causing massive over heating in the exhaust pipe blanching every dip of oil in to dust! It all made sense now. The rubber hose failed and you couldn't see the failure unless you got physical with it. Some days it would run slightly better than other likely based by mere happenstance.. causing me to run in circles!

Before anyone says... How the heck could you miss that? The tear/slit/rip was on the bottom of the hose. When the hose was on the vehicle there was no evidence there was a hole in the rubber. There was no vacuum leak noise as I was rarely was head-under the hood while idling. Also, I was unable to perform a vacuum leak test i.e. spraying carb spray around under the hood because the engine would not run without me throttling the gas peddle and keeping the RPMs well above an idle. Also, the front runner and the plenum, they actually touch and the hose simply bans them together, but this was way more than enough to cause MAJOR symptoms out of happenstance running me in circles for months! I likely ripped the rubber hose just after I found the misplaced front valve cover gasket and never noticed it.

Suggestion: Any time you remove the runners for whatever reason... do a complete and thorough individual inspection to verify their integrity! This hose failure made the engine sound like a bolt was inside the engine as it buck like a wild horse and would not run an idle. Because I dig so deep in to this engine (first ever experience with Saturn), I had my hands full and on so many different things, wires, modules, replacing several gaskets while isolating and testing sensor galore... it had me chasing my tail while under massive pressure before we bought the new car. Well, every 20 years isn't bad between car purchases and I did learn a ton of good information about the Saturn. I also increased my tool crib significantly with Wife's approval... a code reader, air compressor, borescope, compression test kit, misc unique tools for Saturn maintenance and a DIY smoke machine which saved my butt and was the least expensive tool ever! I have to thank my wife for not allowing me to junk the Saturn! If it wasn't for her I would have junked it and believed I kill it. But now I can continue to restore her baby and possibly put Collector plates on her! The Saturn, not the wife! But, she's a keeper! Happy endings once again!
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Old 05-09-2020, 03:05 PM   #64
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Thumbs Up Re: 3.0 L PCV Valve Help?

I'm impressed with your work here!!

Your analysis of why the codes appeared as they did is really helpful in understanding all of the elements which feed into the computer and then how it compensates - to the degree that it can - for problems present in the system. What becomes even more clear in this circumstance is how far "outside of the box" one must consider how the whole fuel/ignition/emission system is working together. It reminds me of how much I do not know!
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Old 05-09-2020, 03:39 PM   #65
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Thumbs Up Re: 3.0 L PCV Valve Help?

Rj,

Nice win man! Those darn intake runners! Glad to know your car is fixed.
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Old 05-09-2020, 05:32 PM   #66
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Default Re: 3.0 L PCV Valve Help?

Nice find. It's unfortunate to find it late into this major project. You would have found it the first time, either during removal or before reusing them by careful inspection. Btw, I think they're polyurethane (not silicone). Semi rigid with just enough flex. When I removed the upper intake system to replace a worn t-stat, I suspected them from the beginning as they're expensive when available and probably now classified as unobtanium. I was careful in the removal process as I didn't plan ahead for replacing them if one or more tore itself during removal (they stuck and required careful prying with a flat blade screw driver to break the bond between plastic and aluminum. I sprayed silicone on the insides of these couplers to allow them to slide on and (possibly) make them easier for removal if I had to revisit this area. Being very rigid, I was afraid of the removal process tearing one or more. Cleaning them followed by close inspection assured none were damaged for reuse. I never bothered to check inside diameter for replacement hose material.
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Old 05-09-2020, 06:58 PM   #67
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Default Re: 3.0 L PCV Valve Help?

Thanks guys! It is nice to get a win for once!

The inner diameter of the two large intake bellow's is 2 3/8" with an outer diameter of 3". I 'm not sure what size the smaller individual hoses are. I sprayed a bit of carb spray searching for vacuum leaks on all intake hoses and one seemed to have a burp in RPMs. The engine was still warming up so I'm not going to worry too much, but I might plan to replace them all some day. I found the large ones from a specialty performance shop in CA for $35 each... I just went with fuel filler hose, 1 foot cost me $26 and I have enough for plenty of replacements. I did buy new hose clamps because the stock clamps would not fit over the new hose. It is much beefier! I don't suspect I will have any trouble seeing how the rubber is made to handle gas etc...

I change the oil and discovered oil filter cap required a 1/2" breaker bar to loosen it! Then I discovered the filter looked like it has been in there for decades! I don't think these guys at the Quick Lub ever changed it! I've loosened wheel hubs easier! I was really worried I would that darn thing, but it finally gave up and broke free!

New oil, filter, car wash and a few drive cycles to notch the rust off the rotors and it's ready for the road! Man, I have never had spare vehicles... I normally drive them until they drop and look for something new!

I can't emphasize enough how close I was to junking the Saturn! It had me beat Rocky style! There is still more to do with this vehicle. Oddly enough... the PCV fix is working and without changing any more gaskets... the oil leaking/burning seems to be gone. I drove it 45 miles today and never once (knock on wood twice) smelt oil burning fumes. I still can vividly remember the monster noises which sounded like a bolt was inside the engine when I first tried to start it after the first tear down. It was awful. Nevertheless, now it's veroom... smooth and plenty of power and Zero codes! I connected the code reader just to see what normal looks like.

My neighbor has a 2012 V6 turbo Mustang... it puts out 550 hp. He "tuned" the engine to make use of the turbo boost. I asked him if he wanted to race? Luckily he declined because my wife has a lead foot!
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