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Old 09-03-2013, 11:27 AM   #1
nub_mechanic
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Dizzy P0410 Code

Hey everyone. I've got a P0410 code on my 2002 Saturn SL1 and can't, for the life of me, figure it out.

I ran through the troubleshooting process that RichPin put up on Youtube and started with testing the connector on the air pump and it gave me 12V when I checked it just recently. I then waited and tested it again, checking for airflow from the pump to the check-valve, and there was none. I then bought a pump, replaced it, and checked the pump directly after on a cold-start. It worked. Then I reset the computer on the car, wait a couple days, and the code comes back on. After just checking it the second and third times, the pump didn't seem to come on at all at a cold start. I can't find out if there's a problem further down the line in the system if the pump won't start.

Is the computer finicky with how it turns on the pump besides the whole "running on a cold start for 0-65 seconds"? I'm thinking it might be a problem with the check-valve now, since there's airflow in every other hose in or out of the check-valve (except for the outflow to the manifold, I'd assume). Any ideas on what the issue might be?

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Old 09-03-2013, 01:01 PM   #2
BV22
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Default Re: P0410 Code

You are on the right track from watching the Richpin video. If your air pump is not running on cold start, that is where you should focus your efforts. I can hear mine run when I have my head under the hood, but if you are not sure, disconnect the big hose that runs from the air pump to the diverter valve at the diverter valve and do a cold start. If the air pump is running, you will get a nice stream of air out of the hose for 30-60 seconds. If the pump is not running, either it is not getting 12V at the connector, or the ground wire connection is flaky.

You can read for hours here with a search of P0410. It is an annoying system.

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Old 09-04-2013, 09:21 AM   #3
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Default Re: P0410 Code

Yeah, I realize that now. I've been told that the ground wire might be the problem, but i'm kind of confused on what is meant by that. Is that the ground wire that connects the engine block to the frame? I've seen it before and never thought anything of it. It looks like it's rusted green, because it's a completely open copper wire (I assume it's copper). Not sure if that helps, but that's the next thing I could think of.

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Old 09-04-2013, 09:27 AM   #4
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Default Re: Saturn P0410 issues

Follow every step. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIrmkxj6wJE Most likely you need to remove the exhaust manifold and clean out the ports into the exhaust valves.

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Old 09-04-2013, 09:49 AM   #5
nub_mechanic
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Default Re: Saturn P0410 issues

I've followed through that video many times over. For some reason, the pump never turns on. Old one didn't, even though I hooked it right up to the battery and it ran (I hear this isn't a reliable test). The new one worked on one startup and now it doesn't after testing on a random cold start. I'm starting to think now it might be the ground wire, but i'm not exactly sure which one everyone is talking about.

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Old 09-04-2013, 10:05 AM   #6
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Default Re: P0410 Code

There are two wires that go to the air pump. One is +12V when commanded to run by the PCM, and the other goes to ground. Sorry, I don't know exactly where that wire grounds, but you might be able to physically follow it to its end.

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Old 09-04-2013, 10:20 AM   #7
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Default Re: P0410 Code

A partial reprint from the service manual;

The secondary air injection (AIR) system is used to accelerate the heating process of the catalytic converters by introducing outside air into the exhaust manifold. The air pump operates on cold engine starts when the catalytic converters are least efficient. The AIR system consists of the air pump, combination valve, air pipe/hoses, check valve, air pump solenoid, air pump relay and powertrain control module (PCM). The PCM controls the ground for the air pump relay coil, which turns the air pump ON and OFF. The PCM also controls the ground for the air pump solenoid, which allows manifold vacuum to move the combination valve. The air pump solenoid and air pump relay are controlled independently to prevent exhaust gas from entering the air pump. During air pump operation, the oxygen sensor 1 (O2S-1) should read lean indicating the air pump system is working. DTC P0410 sets when the PCM commands the AIR system ON and the O2S-1 signal does not indicate a lean condition for a certain length of time.

DTC Parameters
DTC P0410 will set if AIR system is being commanded ON during a cold start and O2S-1 signal does not indicate a lean condition (voltage greater than 300 mV) for a minimum of 2.5 seconds out of a 10 second test when the following parameters are met for at least 6 seconds while the test is running.
  • The engine speed is less than 3200 RPM.
  • The startup engine coolant temperature (ECT) is between 4-79C (39-174F).
  • The O2S-1 is above 600 mV for at least 2 seconds.
  • The intake air temperature (IAT) is greater than 0C (32F).
  • The manifold absolute pressure (MAP) is greater than 20 kPa.
  • The ignition voltage is between 11-18 volts.
  • The traction control is not active.
  • The commanded air/fuel ratio is between 12:1 and 14:1.
  • The calculated air flow is between 8-19 gm/s.
  • No 5-volt reference, ECT, EGR, fuel trim, idle air control (IAC), IAT, MAP, misfire, O2S-1 or throttle position (TP) sensor DTCs have been set.
The following applies to vehicles built after VIN 1Z200000. If the air pump does not run long enough to obtain accurate test results, the PCM may run up to 5 independent tests if a test fails or does not fully run. The PCM must see the O2S-1 voltage go below 300 mV for at least 1.5 seconds out of a maximum 6 second test. The PCM will wait 20 seconds between each test if another test is going to run.
Conditions to run the active test:
  • The ECT is greater than 75C (167F).
  • The commanded air/fuel ratio is 14.7:1.
  • The engine is at idle for at least 4 seconds.
  • STFT is between 122-134

Green corrosion is normal for bare copper wires - its oxidation and normal except if it interferes with terminations, preventing a good electrical connection. Ground connections are fine as long as the corrosion isn't directly under the wire that's bolted to ground studs on the chassis or engine stud mounts.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg air pump system.jpg (104.1 KB, 36 views)

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Old 09-04-2013, 10:23 AM   #8
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Default Re: P0410 Code

As far as I know, there were no other wires attached to the pump besides the power connector. I thought that the ground wire was part of the negative side on the power connector, but that wouldn't make sense now. Now that I know there's a separate ground connector directly to the pump, I can look for that.

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Old 09-04-2013, 10:24 AM   #9
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Default Re: Saturn P0410 issues

Here's the story on our 2000 SL2 AIR system.

Bought the car recently, a couple months later, we're under some pressure to get emissions test passed after son takes it in and it fails... "What do you mean the SES light has been on!?!"... "I can fix That and could've done it before!"

Checked codes, tested per Richpin video, pump OK, diverter valve OK, pulled injection tube and cleared gunk, pulled exhaust manifold, cleared gunk in that, cleaned out passages in the head. Tested system by jumping, worked fine. Still throwing the code.

Would not turn on and do self-test at startup Until I cleared all codes, at which point it immediately turned on, ran the self-test and code remains clear some months later. Not sure why, and how it worked that way but it did.

I'd love to hear any insight others here may have BTW.

Hope this helps!
-LR

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Old 09-04-2013, 10:56 AM   #10
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Default Re: P0410 Code

There are exactly 2 wires in the plug connector, +12v and ground, nothing more. There is no other ground connected to that AIR pump. If you can see the +12v between the 2 connectors in the plug, it is good.

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Old 09-04-2013, 10:58 AM   #11
BV22
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Default Re: P0410 Code

Believe the ground wire is the black one of the two going to the connector. From the diagram fdryer so kindly provided, it grounds at the right front light ground point. Follow the black wire from the air pump to its end.

Another remote possibilty is that the air pump relay has failed. You should check for 12V at the gray wire at the air pump connector for 30 seconds or so on cold start. If you get voltage, the relay is working and unless you bought a defective pump, the ground connection becomes very suspect.

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Old 09-04-2013, 12:49 PM   #12
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Default Re: P0410 Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by nub_mechanic View Post
Then I reset the computer on the car, wait a couple days, and the code comes back on. Any ideas on what the issue might be?
I went through a laundry list that BV22 gave me to eliminate 'this and that' and concluded that everything was working as should. Last option was to purchase a new diverter valve from the dealership. The only reason I don't suggest that to you YET is because you say your fan doesn't run on a cold start - mine always did.

Also, I would not reset codes after performing a change/fix. Once you have corrected the problem, the code will dissapppear by itself within 15 minutes of city driving. At least, that is how it worked for me.

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Old 09-04-2013, 01:04 PM   #13
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Default Re: P0410 Code

from nub's duplicate thread in S-Series Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by LabRat View Post
Here's the story on our 2000 SL2 AIR system.

Bought the car recently, a couple months later, we're under some pressure to get emissions test passed after son takes it in and it fails... "What do you mean the SES light has been on!?!"... "I can fix That and could've done it before!"

Checked codes, tested per Richpin video, pump OK, diverter valve OK, pulled injection tube and cleared gunk, pulled exhaust manifold, cleared gunk in that, cleaned out passages in the head. Tested system by jumping, worked fine. Still throwing the code.

Would not turn on and do self-test at startup Until I cleared all codes, at which point it immediately turned on, ran the self-test and code remains clear some months later. Not sure why, and how it worked that way but it did.

I'd love to hear any insight others here may have BTW.

Hope this helps!
-LR
this btw is why it would be nice to only open a particular question one place at a time...
-LR

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Old 11-19-2015, 12:45 AM   #14
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Default Re: P0410 Code

The car is a 2000 SL1 SOHC/Automatic Trans with 213k on her.

So I have the P010 CEL Code, I've been searching for a while but haven't found anything to help my situation out.

The issue is my car NEVER came with a SAIP, there is no wiring, brackets or even a spot in the manifold for one. Could it be an O2 sensor or an EGR? What is the signal flow for the P0410 Code?

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2000 Saturn SL1
1995 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC
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Old 11-19-2015, 02:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: P0410 Code

The secondary air system is in all 2001 and 2002 S series, but only some 2000's. Sounds like you might have a PCM from a car that had the air system installed in a car that did not, or an exhaust manifold from a non-air system car and the pump/valves discarded.. How long have you had the car, and does the sticker under the hood say that is meets California emissions?

If you've had this car for years and this is the first time you have seen the P0410 code, then I'm stumped.

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Old 11-19-2015, 09:57 PM   #16
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Default Re: P0410 Code

That makes a little more sence. I took a steering wheel, CC module and a Gen III PCM from a J/Y car so I could have cruise. Any way to turn it off, permanently? When I delete the code, it comes back after the engine warms up.

Any way to trick the computer or just keep an eye out for a 2000 with CC?

I take allot of pride in my high milage cars and even a frivolous little CEL detest me.

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Old 11-20-2015, 08:44 AM   #17
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Default Re: P0410 Code

Sorry, I don't know of any way to reprogram a PCM to remove the secondary air routine. Others may chime in, but search for a 2000 PCM from a car without secondary air injection would be a clean solution.

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Old 01-03-2017, 09:27 PM   #18
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Dazed Re: Saturn P0410 issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by nub_mechanic View Post
I've followed through that video many times over. For some reason, the pump never turns on. Old one didn't, even though I hooked it right up to the battery and it ran (I hear this isn't a reliable test). The new one worked on one startup and now it doesn't after testing on a random cold start. I'm starting to think now it might be the ground wire, but i'm not exactly sure which one everyone is talking about.
My 1999 saturn sl2 has a air diverter valve and my secondary air blower would not come on until I replaced it. In fact I didn't even get voltage at the blower in the first 30 seconds. I tested the hot wire to the relay at the underhood fuse box and had continuity and had power and switched power to the relay associated with the blower. The ground at the blower feed I assume goes to the pcm and has no continuity that I know of back to the under hood relay. My electrical schematic showed the ground hooking to pin 70 at the pcm. Hope this helps. The body of the diverter is orange with 2 wires hooked to it. It is a dealer item. Don't try to get it at an auto parts store.

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