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Old 04-19-2019, 08:11 PM   #21
KCW
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Default Re: E15

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Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
... The all electric vehicle is established as second to none when standing next to internal combustion engines.....
you are jumping way ahead of what is out there

a gallon of gasoline in a tank weighs about 7 lbs

a lithium ion battery that will give you the same range in an electric car weighs 100 lbs

My Fusion has a 16 gallon tank, at 70mph it has a range of 570 miles, if you dont dip into the recommended 1 gallon reserve buffer. 15 gallons of gas in a tank weighs 105 lbs

a lithium ion battery that would go 570 miles would weigh 1500 lbs

I can refill the Fusion in 3 minutes at a gas pump

to properly charge up a 300 mile range tesla you need to plug it in over night

if you use a super charger, in one hour you will get maybe 200 miles range, and you just seriously cooked the battery pumping that much power into it that fast

as I said before, if you live where its cold, that $60,000 300 mile range tesla drops to 150 miles range

electric cars are 'there' when it comes to commuting, pure EVs and PHEVs like the Volt or plug in Prius

but to be able to come home from work, you get a phone call from your daughter in college 300 miles away, and you need to be there ASAP... no

if your battery is low you need to stop at a super charger for an hour, drive 200 miles, stop at another super charger for half an hour, and your 5 hour drive has turned into 7 hours each way.

Pure EVs cannot compete with a gas engine. They are too heavy, they are too expensive, they take too long to charge, the infastructure is still not there. If you need to take the typical great American road trip, you need a car with an engine that runs on a fuel, that can be filled in minutes

not a car that runs on electrical power being transferred thru a wire, and converted into chemical energy in a big, heavy, expensive battery.

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Old 04-19-2019, 08:33 PM   #22
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Default Re: E15

Very good point and making this ethanol discussion more complicated.

Low lead gasoline is still used and required in general aviation engines as its more costly to redesign or retrofit engines using leaded gas to run on unleaded. There's a whole community of single and dual engines still running avgas that cannot run on unleaded. Aviation fuel isn't cheap. And there's an undercurrent of attempts to make aviation low leaded gasoline outlawed. Using low lead in cars with catalytic converters will coat catcons, rendering them u$ele$$. Only older engines without catcons can use low lead gas.

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Old 04-19-2019, 08:43 PM   #23
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Default Re: E15

I didnt mean to imply the gas stations near the airports are selling aviation E0 for cars. It just struck me as odd there are only 2 gas stations where I live that sell regular grade E0 in a 50 mile radius, and one right across the street from the small plane side of the airport.

E0 is also used by people with old lawn mowers, and weed wackers and chain saws. ( I just remembered I need to drain the E10 out of my 40 year old Ariens snowblower tomorrow :^)

There are many more places that sell E0 premium gas all over, but for my motorcycle E10 vs E0 mpg performance test I wanted E0 regular - and only found those two stations that have it.

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Old 04-19-2019, 08:53 PM   #24
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You're looking thru rose colored glasses about evs. The ev community have accepted all your points and readily adjusted to a slightly different lifestyle to accommodate the longer travel distances, longer recharging times and any other lifestyle change. Unbeknownst to most conventional owners of ice cars, trucks and suvs, ev owners don't complain about the adjustment. The compromise is a maintenance free vehicle despite the niggling issues with small annoyances that comes with the territory. I'm not a proponent of evs but am open to everything including the major changes in lifestyle to own and operate an ev. The same can be said about ice cars but in reverse to ev owners willingly trading in for an ev like Teslas or hybrids. It all depends on personal choice, not your opinion since you see no need for an ev in your immediate lifetime.

As to comparison to a family member being stranded several hundred miles away, it doesn't matter whether its an ice or electric vehicle. Each has its own issues when a break down occurs so its not really fair to impose personal feelings on a breakdown. As with anything in life, we make choices and adjust to it.

To demonstrate some dissatisfaction, from a Tesla owner, one familiar face videoed his dead Tesa at the airport parking lot being towed and another from his home garage. I believe he's a regular for Tesla fanboys. I was interested in why his battery died. I forgot the reasons but its out there for anyone to find and review. Another Tesla owner (both early model S high end cars) found his $450 pop out door handle failed and proceeded to disassemble the car himself without a service manual. He too was unhappy with Tesla service but resigned himself to learn what he could from diy repairs. These are Tesla owners unhappy with their evs yet still drive them. Whether for self esteem, frustration or ego, some Tesla owners are happy to share their experiences on youtube. No different from message boards like Saturnfans.

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Old 04-19-2019, 09:13 PM   #25
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your comment about rose colored glasses is backwards

it means you put the glasses on and all you see when you look at your EV car is roses and sunshine and rainbows

Im sure there are people who are willing to accept the shortfalls of owning a battery-only powered car ( green colored glasses?) with the idea that they personally are not contributing to the use of fossil fuels, but that is self delusional. Nearly every aspect of modern life involves the use of fossil fuels, the tractors that farm our food, the trucks that transport it, trains, aircraft, mass transit... Unless an EV community is willing to take a path like the Amish, and separate themselves from the fossil fuel society completely, their personal use of a battery power car is having no impact.. not like they think it is.

Also the idea that an electric car can have very low maintenance is good in theory, for a very simple EV with an open frame motor (like a golf cart). but the actual implementation of batteries and powerful electric motors in a mobile vehicle has pushed the electric motors to be in an oil bath, oil cooled, the batteries are liquid cooled, the cabin heaters are complex systems of pumps and valves and heat pumps

and since a same size EV car with a battery comparable to the range of a gas car is so heavy, the cars tend to eat their very expensive tires. A Tesla model S will only get about 20k miles on a set of tires, and they are $2000 to replace

again: an EV or PHEV can be cost effective for a commuter car or for short trips, but when people take EVs as religion and demand the car be all or nothing, you end up with a $60,000 tesla, that has a recommend $600 / year system check up (just to look for issues), and still has oil in the motor and anti freeze in the battery, and coolant pumps, balls joints and suspension under heavy duty loading...

My example about the daughter away at college needing immediate attention, is just one point about the US being a motor vehicle society. Being able to jump in your car and go anywhere on a moments notice is in-grained in our car culture. It has nothing to do with cars breaking down or needing to be towed. People expect the freedom to jump in their $60,000 car, fill the tank and literally drive anywhere with no restrictions.

In theory an EV should be a simple machine with low maintenance. In practice they became more complicated than expected.

Last edited by KCW; 04-19-2019 at 09:21 PM..

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Old 04-19-2019, 10:01 PM   #26
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Default Re: E15

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Low lead gasoline is still used and required in general aviation engines as its more costly to redesign or retrofit engines using leaded gas to run on unleaded. There's a whole community of single and dual engines still running avgas that cannot run on unleaded. Aviation fuel isn't cheap. And there's an undercurrent of attempts to make aviation low leaded gasoline outlawed. Using low lead in cars with catalytic converters will coat catcons, rendering them u$ele$$. Only older engines without catcons can use low lead gas.
Avgas these days is 100LL, or low lead. It actually has a ton of lead, but less than the old 130 octane avgas. They used to also have 80 octane which had no lead and was great for low performance airplanes. Many aircraft are eligible for a supplemental type certificate (STC) that lets them run unleaded auto fuel. I have many hours flying with unleaded auto fuel.

I hate ethanol in the gas. We are all paying for it twice. Once for the subsidies, once at the pump.

End of aviation trivia. Back to the regular program.

...
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Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018

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Old 04-19-2019, 11:47 PM   #27
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Default Re: E15

KCW, btw, citizens of either Norway or Netherland have the most Teslas. Lifestyle adjustment means something to a nation that sits in subfreezing temps. They must deal with battery issues somehow whether its less range or having an outlet outdoors for preheating/prewarming/charging duties. They may travel less mileage in a relatively small nation compared the vastness of America. It's always a personal choice for personal transportation.

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Old 04-20-2019, 03:29 PM   #28
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Default Re: E15

the only statement you made that I disagree with is:

Quote:
The all electric vehicle is established as second to none when standing next to internal combustion engines....
in the middle of the previous page.

Norway has half the population of NYC, and its only 100 miles between their only 2 cities. By comparison to the USA, nearly all motor vehicle travel in Norway is commuting.

They have always been required to use heated garages, or block heaters, or to use diesel engine cars that are literally left running overnight, because if you let them cold soak to -20F they will not start again.

It is commendable they are going to the lengths necessary to make EVs functional in their environment, but the fact that they have to do all these things shows that EVs do not stand side by side with gas engine vehicles.

Personally I think a PHEV, that has a battery range than matches your normal daily commute is the ideal solution.

If you drive 30 miles to work and back everyday, a plug in hybrid that can get 30 miles range under the worst weather conditions means that most of the time you will never use gasoline. If you need to go out of your way, or to take a longer trip on the weekends or vacation, the car runs on a fuel: gas, diesel, propane, hydrogen.... Since you hardly ever use it in fuel mode, it does not matter if the fuel is expensive. Its still more cost effective than parking an EV and renting an ICE car for the longer road trip, or having both cars in your garage.

The fact that batteries are so big, heavy, expensive, and take long to charge, is the thing that makes an PHEV ideal - you minimize all the negative characteristics of lithium ion batteries by using one that is just big enough for your normal daily needs - you are not commuting 30 or 40 miles a day, hauling around a 1000 lb, $15,000 battery with a range of 300 miles.

A chevy Volt with a 40 mile range charges overnight pulling on 10A from a standard 110V wall plug. It is charging the battery at a low rate, it is not fast or flash charging it, and cooking it internally, shortening its useful life. I read recently that Chevy has never had to replace a battery in a Volt, because it lost significant capacity over the years, and they have been making them since 2011, longer than tesla has been selling the model S.

This is where tesla gets it wrong. Fuel in not going away... ever. PHEVs are easier to adapt to, and there is zero chance of getting stranded because your battery ran dead. You can pull into any gas station and fuel up in minutes.

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Old 04-20-2019, 04:45 PM   #29
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Default Re: E15

Good points made. However, to each his own. Each vehicle owner makes his or her choices for lifestyle, personal, business and other reasons when buying an ice car, 100% bev, or hybrid. There's even lease arrangements for those not fully convinced to try evs. I frequently read several sites related to Teslas and its competitors. To date, nearly zero complaints of range anxiety after several years of Teslas efforts to establish charging stations in California then rolling out stations across the USA. I was recently shocked to find numerous charging stations in Manhattan alone (one of five boroughs making up NYC). Mapping is similar to gas buddy. Not 100% Tesla supercharging stations as competition decided to join the ev charging revolution to allow many to find charging almost as convenient as finding gas stations. I see you're less than enthusiastic concern for evs and that's your right to a personal opinion with many feeling the same but not the feelings of those already accepting 100% bevs as their main mode of transportation. "Different strokes for different folks".

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Old 04-20-2019, 10:39 PM   #30
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everyone has their own personal preferences, but you cannot ignore the laws of physics and the functional limitations on batteries

when you take a road trip on a busy holiday weekend, at any interstate exit or service area, there is a constant flow of cars thru the gas stations

to put enough energy into a tesla you need to sit there for at least 30 minutes, to get maybe two more hours on the road. An hour will get you about 3 hours of travel time

so do the math

at a thruway service area one stand with 8 pump nozzles can refuel 8 cars in 3 minutes - that is 160 cars per hour when they are busy, and even then cars sometimes stack up and have to wait to get a free pump

to recharge 160 tesla cars an hour you need 160 superchargers running for the full hour, to get another 200 miles of range on them

if they are spaced 10 feet apart, that is 1600 feet of pavement, almost 1/3rd of a mile of street lined with super chargers, each taking 100 kw of energy as it both fast charges the battery and supplies energy to cool the batteries to keep them from bursting into flames

that is 16 megawatts of energy, just to match the fueling capacity of 8 gas pump nozzles. A typical thruway service area, or gas station off a thruway exit will have 3 or 4 islands with 8 pumps/nozzles each. When I travel on holiday weekends on 95 along the east coast, I see these stations FULL with cars backed up.

If there are no pumps free its not 3 minutes till the car infront of you is done, its an hour.

Are you seeing the problem yet?

Tesla once talked about solving this by having cars come in and drop their battery, and get a freshly charged one, in about 3 minutes. What they did not work out before proposing this, if they have a line of cars coming into one battery exchange, they will be getting 20 dead batteries per hour that need to be charged, and to fully charge them to their 300 mile range will take 2 hours - so they need 40 batteries available for the recharge cycle, just to match the capacity of ONE gas pump nozzle. Those batteries are about $20,000 each.

Its not a viable operation.

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Old 04-20-2019, 11:17 PM   #31
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Default Re: E15

Well, no matter what your perceptions are, Teslas and hybrids are being bought. Yes, there are changes to how refueling occurs with evs, specifically recharging lithium batteries. No doubt ev owners are adjusting whether they like it or not. I suspect the majority are well aware of charging times as a trade off to less maintenance. All I know is that evs are here and a slow evolution is occurring. In my area (NYC), I am seeing more Teslas than a year ago. I stopped by a 7-11 and discovered a charging station (not a Tesla supercharger station). In the time I spoke to one person as he was waiting for charging to complete, another ev pulled up. The first ev owner described his trip from NYC to Baltimore or Delaware on a single charge. I don't recall the model (Chevy Bolt?) but he was enthusiastic and not bothered at all about recharging times. Apparently, he was in no hurry.

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