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Old 01-05-2008, 10:18 PM   #21
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

So for those that don't want the 100 mph speed limiter, what speed would you LIKE to be able to go with your top heavy, softly sprung, poorly braked VUE?
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Old 01-06-2008, 01:21 AM   #22
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

Does anyone know if the governor is controlled by speed sensors? If so, would it be possible to put some circuitry inline with those sensors to "fake" the ECU into beleiving the speed is 100 after the real speed is above that?

If the speed is determined by the computer by wheel sensors, then one could put some circuits in line that change the output once the 100 mph limit is reached. This would be possible if the speed sensors send a varying voltage signal to the ECU/BCM or whatever to tell the car what speed it is traveling. Once the car reaches 100 mph, the "circuit" could interrupt the signal and continue to send the 100 mph signal while the car continues to go faster based on the input from the pedal sensors. If the accelerator is telling the ECU to push more fuel while the speed sensors are not telling the "governor" to shut down fuel delivery it should be doable.

My Vue will never reach these speeds but for those that use the track with the V6 I can understand the frustration...

I'd be willing to look a little deeper if someone could tell me what is telling the governor to shut off fuel delivery. If its wheel sensors (what signal do they send at 100 mph; a +5 or 12V or is it just a varying voltage based on speed), something in the tranny etc...
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Old 01-06-2008, 08:49 AM   #23
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

Wow Tom...kick me when I'm down...lol

I agree with DC, at 80+ MPH my Redline and even my wifes 02 AWD V6 felt perfectly fine on the highway. My RL was "smooth as glass"

Tom...I would say 120 MPH max would be fine with me. I have the 04 so mine is 100 MPH while the 05-07 is 120 MPH. I haven't drove many cars in my life so far but I wouldn't give the Vue that bad of a rating. Adn don't you have a Vue?? Do you not like it?? They seem to be great vehicles so far. And the Redline Vue is a beautiful vehicle that doesnt cost as much as a Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 and Chevy Trailblazer SS. Oh and please check my post in VUE Tech as I am having a lil trouble. Dont laugh Tom, lol

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Old 01-06-2008, 11:16 AM   #24
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Default 100mph on Duelers?

IMHO, its the tires. I had a 1993 Maxima 5spd with speed rated tires. I was told the car could do 135 mph (by Car and Driver). I never had it over 85 mph.

The speed rated tires for the Maxima were pricey! But they could "handle" the speed. They were much stiffer tires (to avoid being ripped apart by centrifugal force). Also, the suspension was made softer to accommodate the harder tires. So, you could not fool around with a much softer and "normal" tire on a speed rated suspension. Folks did find you could go down one speed rating and do OK.

But given most VUEs have Duelers to start with, I would be rather afraid to drive my simple VUE over 80 mph on the roads here in Southwestern Virginia.
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Old 01-06-2008, 12:03 PM   #25
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdough View Post
Does anyone know if the governor is controlled by speed sensors? If so, would it be possible to put some circuitry inline with those sensors to "fake" the ECU into beleiving the speed is 100 after the real speed is above that?

If the speed is determined by the computer by wheel sensors, then one could put some circuits in line that change the output once the 100 mph limit is reached. This would be possible if the speed sensors send a varying voltage signal to the ECU/BCM or whatever to tell the car what speed it is traveling. Once the car reaches 100 mph, the "circuit" could interrupt the signal and continue to send the 100 mph signal while the car continues to go faster based on the input from the pedal sensors. If the accelerator is telling the ECU to push more fuel while the speed sensors are not telling the "governor" to shut down fuel delivery it should be doable.
No. The powertrain knows the speed independent of the wheel speed sensors. The wheel speed sensors don't send a voltage per-se, they send pulses from a hall-effect sensor & a toothed wheel. So many counts per revolution with a time channel = speed.

The system is far more complex than you're making it out to be as far as interrupting one signal and so-forth. As the speed approaches 100 (or 120 in the '05+ Redline) the ECU starts to back off on the throttle in order to limit the speed to 100. Very clever system really. It makes the car feeel as if it's run out of power at that speed instead of using a hard fuel cutoff. But it only cuts back on the throttle so much. Going downhill, it's possible to exceed 100mph, but then at 105 a fuel cutoff comes in.
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Old 01-06-2008, 11:59 PM   #26
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

So then someone explain this limiter bypass method and how that factors in to existance with this cut-off method.
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Old 01-07-2008, 10:13 AM   #27
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

It's not even worth discussing because it isn't possible. The ECU would just go to limp mode, and ABS would be non-functional.

An ECU tune is the only way to do it.

Oh, crap, nobody can do that.
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Old 01-07-2008, 11:02 AM   #28
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

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An ECU tune is the only way to do it.

Oh, crap, nobody can do that.
except Honda...and I don't see them helping out too much
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Old 01-09-2008, 12:33 PM   #29
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

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Originally Posted by D C View Post
No. The powertrain knows the speed independent of the wheel speed sensors. The wheel speed sensors don't send a voltage per-se, they send pulses from a hall-effect sensor & a toothed wheel. So many counts per revolution with a time channel = speed.

The system is far more complex than you're making it out to be as far as interrupting one signal and so-forth. As the speed approaches 100 (or 120 in the '05+ Redline) the ECU starts to back off on the throttle in order to limit the speed to 100. Very clever system really. It makes the car feeel as if it's run out of power at that speed instead of using a hard fuel cutoff. But it only cuts back on the throttle so much. Going downhill, it's possible to exceed 100mph, but then at 105 a fuel cutoff comes in.
Can you tell me what sensors are telling the ECU that the car has reached 100 mph if not the wheel speed sensors alone? I am guessing something in the transmission? Why would it not be possible? Interrupt the signal(s) at the speed or just before that speed and then continue to tell the ECU that speed is not changing after that. ECU will still be receiving increase throttle signal from accelerator and receiving "faked" speed signal.

If you can intercept the signal, change it, then send it on to the ECU as if it were still going 99 mph, then the ECU would not go into limp mode. It would still be receiving a normal signal, just not the correct one as long as all the speed sensors are in agreement.

Your speedometer would read normal mph as long as the car has not reached 99 mph. Once it reaches 99 mph, the car would continue to go faster but the speedo would only read 99. So you might not know exactly how fast you are going, but on a quarter mile track it wold not matter.
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:37 AM   #30
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

Not to add to the fracas going on, but shortly after I bought my 06 vue, my buddy asked me to come down and watch him race his camaro. Afterwards, just for kicks, we decided to see how fast the little 2.2 5 speed manual would go.

Seemed like forever, but it topped out at 125 - no shut down.

Realize of course, this was a straight level track, no traffic, just a giddyup and go idea.

Yes, it handles like a brick at anything over 70, I rarely go faster than that on the streets - no need. But, it was fun just to try once.
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Old 01-10-2008, 08:27 AM   #31
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

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Yes, it handles like a brick at anything over 70
My mom's 2.2L auto did 85mph, no problem the other day. Took a little while to get there, and not the most solid car I've driven at that speed, but it did it ok. I wouldn't want to go much faster in it though.
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Old 01-11-2008, 09:41 AM   #32
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

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My mom's 2.2L auto did 85mph, no problem the other day. Took a little while to get there, and not the most solid car I've driven at that speed, but it did it ok. I wouldn't want to go much faster in it though.
I'm regulary at 70-75mph in my 5 speed VUE, occasionally 80-85. I think it handles ok, stable, no feelings of 'lifting' or float. mpgs is only about 25.5 on my rapid commute, however

I've found that 3rd gear accelration in the VUE is the best. the gap between 1-2 is a little wide, but 3rd is nice. 4th is so quiet I forget to go to 5th sometimes. you honda powered guys are missing all the fun!
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Old 12-01-2020, 02:29 PM   #33
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

I don't speed often but i'm somewhat reckless due to the fact that I am young and dumb (Im learning). I just bought my first car, a saturn vue 4cyl with automatic transmission, I love it! It can't go past 100 mph tho... not even down a hill. (Tested on my way to hocking hills this summer just wanted to see how fast it was, no ticket, hasn't happened since)


It's like the car knows how fast it's going and doesn't wanna go any faster than 100. I don't see this ever causing any issue for me but I do know that's the limit. The tires aren't limiting my speed the cars onboard computing system is.


Why would they give it the logic to decide how fast I can go? Shouldn't it be up to the operator of the vehicle how safely they will drive? I don't know if saturn ever listed a max speed for the vue but I feel like if they did it would've been greater than 100.


This really isn't even a saturn specific question... Why do we as the consumers allow car manufactures tell us how fast is too fast? How can we let them sell us something that could do 1000mph with a limit of 10mph (exaggerated numbers... clearly)


Why don't we want complete control over what we own?




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Old 12-02-2020, 12:22 PM   #34
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

Read post #3 and post #11. Anyone can be stupid at any age. Age has no bearing on stupidity or ignorance.
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Old 12-02-2020, 12:38 PM   #35
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

Thanks for the reply!! I'm glad to see this forum is not dead and people still interact with it!


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Anyone can be stupid at any age. Age has no bearing on stupidity or ignorance.
I have to disagree with you. Intelligence (or stupidity or ignorance) is directly related to age as it is only obtained through experience. I didn't know anything before i learned, most people aren't born as smart as they are when they die, I hope you can understand this.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Read post #3 and post #11..
refer to my post... why is it the manufactures decision? is it un heard of to change out tires? should a car really have this big of a brain? I guess the car brain helps people stay ignorant since it takes the thought out, that is to say most people don't know tires have speed ratings since the car thinks about it for them.


Im looking for answers. I am just trying to learn, sorry if you're mad


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Old 12-02-2020, 01:29 PM   #36
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

There are genius' born intelligent. They were already intelligent. History is filled with genius' from birth. You'll have to Google child genius' to see examples.

You apparently don't follow the history of engine rpm/speed limiters. Do some research. Factory tires are selected for the market audience. This means a specific vehicle will target a group of drivers most likely of average age and driving skills. Vues are not designed for speeding above a certain speed as its not driven at 100 mph by everyone everyday. Drivers looking for 100 mph daily driving will tend to buy a different vehicle that can do it all day every day. Not Vues. So the factory tire that's selected dictates the maximum speed GM decided to limit in programming of ECMs. To fully understand why this occurred, search for Firestone tires on Ford Explorers and rollovers. If you can't do the math, I'll make it easy to understand.

The high center of gravity of original Ford Explorers with factory Firestone tires were driven without paying attention to tire pressures. Low tire pressures, ignoring the tendency for high CG suvs to rollover, quick steering efforts and plain ignorance of vehicle dynamics resulted in rollovers with owners suing Ford. Never mind ignorance as its always someone else's fault. In actuality, ignorant drivers caused these rollovers because they ignored understanding 'high center of gravity' with suvs and their tendency to roll over by simply hitting a curb at just the right speed. Guess what followed. Tire pressure monitoring systems in 2008. Lazy, ignorant drivers refusing to check tire pressures forced auto manufacturers to install tpms. This doesn't exclude rollovers from occurring but does help reduce it as well as redesigning suvs for lower CG. With low aspect ratio tires everyone wants, wider tires and larger wheel diameters help reduce rollover tendencies. No more rollovers nowadays. Rolling tendencies remains in most suvs. With electronics comes easier programming. To further reduce litigation against manufacturers, speed limiting is linked to factory tires rated for a specific speed. Not your idea of speed. Tires dictate speed limiting.

It doesn't matter if you decide to put on high speed rated tires on your Vue limited to 100 mph if you can't drive it above 100 mph from programmed limits. This is deliberate to reduce chances of suing GM or any other manufacturer when a driver exceeds the speed limited vehicle and ends up with injuries and any property damage. When it's proven a driver exceeded the speed limited vehicle and incurs injuries, the facts will come out against the driver. GM isn't stupid. If you want to speed, buy a Corvette or other GM/Ford/FCA vehicle that can go above 100 mph. If you do, prepare to do some research on speed limiters to these vehicles. Protection against lawsuits from inexperienced drivers with less than common sense attitudes about driving and exceeding speed limits is all about protecting a company being sued by uneducated inexperienced drivers. You can buy a Porsche, Ferrari or Lamborghini. They probably don't have speed limiters as all can cruise all day on the German autobhan well above 150 mph........

There's a phrase used in the airplane pilot world. When a crash occurs and investigations determines the main fault lies with the pilot, the phrase "too much airplane, too little pilot" is applied. A change in words can make it "too much car, too little driver".
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Old 12-02-2020, 02:27 PM   #37
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

Hey thank you thats the in depth explanation i've been looking for for days now! I really just wanted to understand the history, I figured someone on here might know! I'm sorry that you think I am stupid and cant do math but I really appreciate you spelling it out for me!


Quote:
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There are genius' born intelligent. They were already intelligent. History is filled with genius' from birth. You'll have to Google child genius' to see examples.
.
If you reread my post maybe it will help you understand what i was saying. I included the word "MOST" because there are exceptions. Some people are born brain dead and die brain dead, these people are no smarter the day they die than the day the are born. Another exception would be if someone experienced brain damage, then they could end up losing intelligence. I would not say child genius' never learn or grow.... I think childhood genius's almost (yes, there are exception to everything that isn't absolute) always gain intelligence/knowledge/smarts in the course of their lifetimes. They are smart from birth I think they probably learn more than the average man in the course of a lifetime.

Thanks again for giving me the actual answer to my question. AUTO MANUFACTURES LIMIT TOP SPEEDS SO THAT CUSTOMERS CANT SUE THEM FOR MAKING A VEHICLE THAT IS FLAWED/UNSAFE --- ITS ALL C.Y.A.

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Old 12-02-2020, 03:05 PM   #38
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

Yes, cya. Auto manufacturers learned after countless lawsuits. History shows their reactions with corporate lawyers well versed in "product liability issues". This isn't just auto manufacturers as PLIs apply to soap, drugs, personal electronics, etc. I'm not alone with curiosity why things aren't the same as they were in the past. A whole generation (most likely before you) grew up with self entitlement issues. Why are all USA vehicles require the brake pedal pressed to release the shift lock to move automatics from park to any other position? Look up Audi 5000 for drivers claiming their Audis were possessed as they drove backwards across the street or into their garage, broke walls and entered their swimming pools. All swearing they pressed the brake pedal. The term "pedal misapplication" came from lawsuits against Audi. The automatic shift lock was invented against pedal misapplication. Before Audi 5000s, every vehicle never had a xmission shift lock - any vehicle can be shifted into any gear without having to press down on the brake pedal. I'm a boomer but not a yuppie, the predominant drivers of Audis in my generation with entitlement issues I simply describe as e-g-o-s unwilling/refusing to admit not knowing the difference between the gas and brake pedal........ Every generation have a certain population of self entitled individuals thinking they know more than the average person.

Some of the most expensive cars in the world are crashed by drivers with average driving skills. Most are very rich but assume they're better drivers only to find out the hard way when either they die or survive horrendous crashes with their Ferraris, Lambos, and McLarens. All on youtube. Very stupid acts of the very rich. Even their very expensive vehicles towed away from illegal parking.

Saturnfans has helped me understand my L300 in ways service manuals can't, from personal experiences allowing me to understand EFI systems better than I thought I had knowledge of. Sharing info is easy. Misinformation and hearsay aside, I think Saturnfans may be unique compared to other forums. The few I've visited over the years seem to either appeal to rumor mongering, angry debates, misinformation, disinformation and hearsay instead of facts from published info and/or experienced people from all walks of life relating facts instead of false info. Separating fact from fiction is already difficult in the present political climate so I suppose this applies to almost everything else when general discussions aren't balanced with factual info.
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Old 12-03-2020, 12:43 PM   #39
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

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the reason it wont let ya go over 100 is cause of the speed rating of the tires that come on the cars. Back in 93 when the 4th generation camaros came out, there was an option to get 235 wide tired instead of 245 on the Z-28. If you got the 235 tires you got a 108 mph limiter, but that wasnt listed anywhere. needless to say people couldnt exactly complain about it to the dealer cause the reponse would be, well you arent supposed to go that fast anyway.

Same thing applies to the vues. Ive been in one and at 85 i feel unsafe. I wouldnt want it to go any faster then 100. The suspension is totally NOT set up for high speeds. Now ive been 145 mph+ in my Firebird Formula and its smooth as glass. that is a type of car that was set up to do those type of speeds. a Vue is not.
Yep. Mine handles about as good as a '65 Chrysler.
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Old 12-08-2020, 01:20 PM   #40
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Default Re: Why 100mph max speed?

When I had my 08 Vue, I could feel it want to "float" (for the want of a better term) at about 95. Did this on a couple of trips back from Vegas when I was trying to get into position for an upcoming passing lane stretch. Besides not being that stable, the mpg dropped like a rock. On that car I found I got decent mileage in the 72-75 range which was great as that was the speed limit in AZ in a lot of places. I won't take my wife's 06 too much above 65 basically die to age of the car.
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