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Old 01-28-2017, 07:03 PM   #1
pantherdawg
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Default 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

Hi,
Was out shopping with the wife yesterday, stopped in for a bite to eat, and when we went to leave the Saturn would not start, Cranked over fine. I had put a new crank sensor in around August 2016 and this acted similar. After we finally got a ride home and thinking about how we were getting the car home, I decided to call around to see if any local auto parts had a crank sensor in stock. Autozone had one, so instead of paying for a tow, it was worth the chance of changing it out in the parking lot and hope we get lucky. Easy fix, car started right up and we went home. A few hours later we decided to go to some friends house (took Saturn) and had no further issues.
We were going to do some running around this afternoon and decided to take Saturn again just to make sure everything was still ok. Well......not, no start. Is it possible that these parts fail this quick, or might I have another issue?
It acts just like the crank sensor again, don't here fuel pump, doesn't even try to start, but cranks fine. I did wipe out all codes from earlier, so no codes present. I did have the lean bank code 0171 and 0174 before.

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Old 01-28-2017, 09:14 PM   #2
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

I've had CPS failures before, but never within hours after replacing them. If it were me, I'd spray some starting fluid into the throttle body and see if it will fire for a few seconds. If so, I'd then check fuel pressure and work back from there.
If it doesn't fire, I'd then pull the intake and check for spark.

Good luck!

...
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Old 01-28-2017, 09:34 PM   #3
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

Check the resistance on that sensor. Should read about 900 Ohms if it's OK.

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Old 01-28-2017, 10:22 PM   #4
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazberry View Post
Check the resistance on that sensor. Should read about 900 Ohms if it's OK.
Autozone one tested at 865. I had kept the previous bad one and that tested at 976 on cheap harbour freight meter. When tested with more expensive radio shack meter I got no reading. I didn't ohm test the newest one that's on car with the better meter.

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Old 01-28-2017, 10:38 PM   #5
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

I just think when I replaced that crank sensor yesterday and the car ran fine, that was the problem. I have in the past got bad replacement parts, not very often, but has happened. If I have time tomorrow I may check wires and connector, but everything looked good.

Saved money on a tow, so I just ordered an oem from amazon.

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Old 01-29-2017, 09:19 AM   #6
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

I recall some folks having no luck with aftermarket sensors. I put a GM 9198639 in my '03 - only 7k mi. on it so far.

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Old 01-29-2017, 08:06 PM   #7
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

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Originally Posted by Chazberry View Post
I recall some folks having no luck with aftermarket sensors. I put a GM 9198639 in my '03 - only 7k mi. on it so far.
Yes, same part# coming. hopefully get it tomorrow. I'll update after install.

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Old 02-03-2017, 01:37 PM   #8
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

No luck with new crank sensor.
All fuses good, wiring looks good, but too cold outside to be chasing connections.
This site being down for as long as it was didn't help... bad timing.

My days of being a Saturn owner are over for now. Will be sold to a friend of mine, hopefully he figures it out and can report back to this forum.

I did have the ignition recall done on 12/30/16, so this could be related to the ignition switch.

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Old 02-03-2017, 02:22 PM   #9
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

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Originally Posted by pantherdawg View Post
No luck with new crank sensor.
Sorry to hear this. My '03 won't start either. Crank Sensor and fuel pressure are good. I'm leaning toward the ECM.

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Old 02-03-2017, 04:52 PM   #10
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

While not a Vue but sharing the same 3.0L V6 engine, here's a different point of view on troubleshooting this crank, no start problem. At 95k miles, my car has replacement crank sensor for about four years and replacement fuel pump last year. Personally, I'm not concerned who makes crank sensors as mine was an Autozone replacement and hasn't failed. I view some of these electronic sensors, in this case a Hall effect(?) signal generator, as generic no matter who makes them as they're designed to specifications in the temperature range and environment they're subjected to - heat, cold and vibration. The only time I questioned my replacement crank sensor was a year ago when the engine died. Some time elapsed during break down troubleshooting before I accepted the realization that the fuel pump croaked. A tow to a garage and $650 later, my car's been running fine since. The crank sensor is fine, the fuel pump croaked (prematurely in my estimation). Accelerated rust from NYC salting in winter required a flex pipe splice, fuel filler assembly and struts/shocks to keep my car on the road.

Most suggestions I advise, related to a crank/no start problem are usually in two parts - a fuel check (removing spark plugs or spraying starting fluid) and spark test. With our 3.0L engines, testing for fuel and spark is difficult so alternate methods are used since plugs are not easily removed to examine them for fuel and testing for spark. A refined troubleshooting method is needed.

Fuses checked and eliminated(?), checking for fuel and pressure can be done at the fuel test valve on the fuel rail over the engine. Capped by a black plastic cap, removing the cap to reveal the schrader valve allows turning on ignition (and maybe listening for two seconds of faint fuel pump sounds), covering the test valve (loosely) with a rag while depressing the valve stem and expecting fuel to shoot/spray out - this verifies pump operation and pressure to injectors only. This is no guarantee injectors are operating as they're fused and operated by the ecm when crank sensor signals are generated during starting and engine running. Either fuel and pressure is present when depressing the fuel test valve or not. A fuel pressure gauge isn't needed unless accuracy is desired, Between 40-60 psi is expected with simply turning on ignition, enough pressure (if pump runs) to spray fuel out the test valve. A lot is covered during this fuel test; fuel and pressure covers the ecm turning on an cycling the fuel pump for two seconds. This test can be repeated but ignition must be turned off a minimum of 15-30 seconds before cycling ignition on again otherwise a timer in the ecm program prevents cycling the fuel pump repeatedly. Ensuring fuel is not the problem allows moving on to possible lack of spark.

Spark is difficult to test for in our V6 engines due to near impossible access to removing spark plugs so an alternate method is needed. This alternate disregards whether the fuel pump runs or not and a reason the fuel pressure test is done first. Removing the air intake tubing, between the maf sensor and throttle body actuator, allows spraying starting fluid (ether) directly into the throttle body for starting. Since the mass air flow sensor is needed to measure air flow volume for the ecm to determine air/fuel mixtures, getting the engine to run is all that's needed when supplying fuel directly to the intake manifold thru the throttle body. A brief two or three second spray is more than enough fluid for testing - the engine supplied starting fluid will test for spark if its generated from the ecm. If spark is generated, starting fluid should allow the engine to run as soon as the starter is engaged. If necessary, hold throttle pedal partially open.

A fuel check (as suggested and performed) should reveal whether or not the fuel pump is operating. A spark test using starting fluid should reveal whether or not the ignition system is operating. The last things to be concerned about, depending on mileage; timing belt damage if not replaced every 100k miles resulting in valve damage, ecm failure (rare but possible), and other issues not mentioned like Passlock security flashing or modified incorrectly.

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Old 02-03-2017, 05:19 PM   #11
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

In my case - did all the above. Fuel pressure stays at 55 psi while cranking. No sign of firing with starting fluid test. A used ECM got it running for a few weeks until a stall on the highway required a tow. More ECM swaps - 30 min. relearns. One unit - no sign of firing. Another unit - runs maybe 15 secs. I'm not trusting my ECM source - will probably bite the bullet and try the more reputable RockAuto.

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Old 02-03-2017, 05:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

Quote:
Originally Posted by pantherdawg View Post
Hi,
Is it possible that these parts fail this quick, or might I have another issue?

100% yes. Over 50% of the electronic sensors I've gotten from flaps have been this same story. Order an A/C Delco from Amazon and try it.

-Robert

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Old 02-03-2017, 07:14 PM   #13
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

I replace timing belt about 50,000 miles ago. Both fuel pumps replaced summer 2016.
Tried starting fluid spaying up into intake air duct. Can't hear fuel pump and don't believe it is getting spark either.

The autozone crank sensor was the same as acdelco...bosch. Both tested fine.

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Old 02-03-2017, 10:45 PM   #14
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

Below is a basic diagram of EFI systems for GM vehicles. As you can see, the crank sensor provides the electronic clock signal to allow the ecm/pcm to operate the EFI system; turn on fuel pump, initiate the ignition system for spark and pulse injectors. There are two ways to troubleshoot EFI systems; throw parts at it until finding the right repair or following a set of troubleshooting steps to determine where failure occurred. Replacing crank sensors hasn't fixed the problem at all so either continue with more parts at random or as suggested, careful fault isolation methods to find the problem. Your choice, either try a donor ecm and perform a 30 minute Passlock security relearn to marry the ecm to bcm and hope this fixes the problem(s) or proceed with step by step troubleshooting and feedback to what works or not.

Judging by your reply, starting fluid hasn't allowed the engine to run and may point to an ignition issue; fuse, wiring to both ignition coil packs, one or both ignition coil packs. There's also a possibility of a flooded engine after many failed starting attempts, presuming the fuel pump is operating. What wasn't determined; does fuel spray from depressing the fuel test valve or not?

Its not a common failure for ecm's to fail as most problems are related to sensors or individual electronic parts (ign coil, fuse, clogged fuel filter, damaged wiring to sensors, broken timing belt, mistimed engine, burned exhaust valve, blown head gasket, etc.). Even if this Vue is passed on to another owner, he/she will have a choice to follow up from here, pay GM to diagnose it or throw parts at it........
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Old 02-03-2017, 11:33 PM   #15
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazberry View Post
In my case - did all the above. Fuel pressure stays at 55 psi while cranking. No sign of firing with starting fluid test. A used ECM got it running for a few weeks until a stall on the highway required a tow. More ECM swaps - 30 min. relearns. One unit - no sign of firing. Another unit - runs maybe 15 secs. I'm not trusting my ECM source - will probably bite the bullet and try the more reputable RockAuto.
I recall a few 3.0 with flaky wiring between ECM and MAIN RELAY - I think I'd remove relay and put a jumper wire between the sockets mating with relay pins 30 and 87.

It'd be piece of cake to repair wire if Vue runs ... and you could then decide what to do with a basket of ECM's.

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Old 02-07-2017, 11:34 AM   #16
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

Quote:
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I recall a few 3.0 with flaky wiring between ECM and MAIN RELAY - I think I'd remove relay and put a jumper wire between the sockets mating with relay pins 30 and 87.
Assuming I have this jumper in the right place, it didn't make a diff.
I'm open to anymore ideas before I spend $500 on another ECM.
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Old 02-07-2017, 01:38 PM   #17
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

Quote:
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Assuming I have this jumper in the right place, it didn't make a diff.
I'm open to anymore ideas before I spend $500 on another ECM.
I'd say jumper is correct as long as in sockets 30 and 87 and wire isn't too large to reach the socket.

I've attach thumbnail for 3.0 ECM power and ground ... I suppose any of those fuses are show-stoppers ... and I'm betting you're the kind of guy that'd use meter or test light at ECM to verify voltages and grounds.
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Old 02-08-2017, 04:40 PM   #18
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

Quote:
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I'd say jumper is correct as long as in sockets 30 and 87 and wire isn't too large to reach the socket.
I checked the Relay to see which pins went to the Coil and figured the other 2 were the contacts. I also stuck a paper clip in there in case my heavy-duty jumper wasn't making contact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by far2grumpy View Post
I've attach thumbnail for 3.0 ECM power and ground ... I suppose any of those fuses are show-stoppers ... and I'm betting you're the kind of guy that'd use meter or test light at ECM to verify voltages and grounds.
The 2 - 10A Fuses (ECM/TCM and Pwr Train) are good - verified voltage going through those. It looks like the ECM Case is grounded - it's bolted to the Eng Block. The other pigtail ground is secure.
The schematic only shows 9 of the wires that go to the ECM Conn. There are actually 2 - 64 Pin connectors on the ECM - maybe 128 wires (?). Access is extremely difficult without removing the Battery, so I have to think about the feasibility of sorting out the Org and Pink wires that are somewhere in the 2 harnesses.

Thanks for all the suggestions. Wonder where our OP went

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Old 02-08-2017, 05:51 PM   #19
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

The Main Relay diagram lists ECM power and ground connections only. All those contacts are in connector C2.

The attached pdf file covers all wires in each ECM connectors.

The thumbnail depicts which connector is what (C1 or C2) and note ECM has external ground strap. This appears to be similar to 2.2 where ECM case is not grounded and requires the external ground wire.
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File Type: pdf 3.0 ECM Conn End-Views.pdf (72.8 KB, 6 views)

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Old 02-08-2017, 10:19 PM   #20
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Default Re: 03 vue possible bad new crank sensor

Thanks much for the additional info. More troubleshooting may have to wait until the snow melts.

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