2001 SW2 Ignition Issues

[johnSW2]

Hello Everyone,

My name is John and this is my first post. Trying to solve my car's problems so my wife won't make me get rid of it. Its a green 2001 SW2 in decent shape. Love it, great gas mileage +33 and great utility.

Anyhow, here is the starting/ignition issue:

First off, the ignition switch is wonky, it takes the unsuspecting person excessive jostling of the key to even get it too turn, separate from the steering wheel lock. Just FYI. Though I will be replacing the lock cylinder soon. Hopefully that fixes this issue.

But the larger starting issue is this:
If I turn the ignition key lightly (as though not really paying attention) the car will start just fine, however the starter motor remains engaged with the engine running. Almost as if you were to be holding the key down too long. And if I immediately shut the engine off, I can still hear the starter motor running. When this happens, if I turn the key again, kind of like a double turn of the key, the starter motor will flip off and everything is fine. As if the surge of voltage from the key engaging again clears the system (obviously not the right wording but the result is the same.)

However, if when starting the car, if I give the ignition a firm turn no problems at all and I drive on my merry way.

After this had been happening for some time, like maybe 2 months (before I figured out the double-key turn), the issue happened, I eventual got the engine and starter off but was unable to restart the car, lights and radio on but no "click", no engagement with the starter. So obviously I thought I killed the starter motor. (novice mechanic) So I replaced it. Which didn't fix the problem. So I checked the fuses - and I've also blown the 30 amp fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Once I replaced this fuse, it started right up. Only less then a week later, the "starter motor staying on" issue showed right back up again, which is right about when I figured out the double-start trick.

Long story short, the starter motor was probably fine, so why am I blowing 30 amp fuses, and why does the starter motor occasionally stay engaged if I gingerly turn the ignition key.

Any thoughts? Thanks guys!

John

[OldNuc]

Just a guess but both the lock cylinder and possibly the actual ignition switch are worn out. Before it breaks you want to replace the lock cylinder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iLPpXVElU0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt8wnj4qHoc

These 2 videos are for an earlier model but give you an idea of what is involved.

Ignition switch and housing pictures.
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...9&postcount=50
Lock keying
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho....php?t=182379#

You can buy a new cylinder kit and key it to match your key.

The first thing to do is get a dealer cut key that is made from your VIN number, the local grind it out hardware store key will not work, Chevy dealer only.

[johnSW2]

So new developments...The problems continued after I replaced the ignition switch. The result, a blown out starter. This time a shop looked at it. They cut a new key and replaced the starter but didn't find anything else wrong. So now the key turns well.

Two months later, all the same problems again. And now the new starter is blown again. And really, these started right back up again with in about three weeks after the repair.

What could be the electrical issue here? What is causing the starter to draw too much current, blowing the fuses, and now blowing the starter...again?

A mechanic friend has looked at it and he too is finding nothing wrong.

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance,

John

[spacetrace33]

I really hope you find the solution, messed up situation that needs answered. Which could help out others.

[OldNuc]

More detail on the fuses that are opening and more info on "blown" starter.

Which fuses and exactly what is happening to the starter.

[billr]

As mentioned before, probably both the ignition lock and switch were worn. You just replaced the lock, correct? Now go back in and check out or replace the switch.

[TomM96]

> probably both the ignition lock and switch

Either component , if 'shot' could cause the starter motor to remain engaged long enough to blow fuse (or 'burn out')

I would imagine drops of oil on the lock cylinder might fix That , but new Ignition Switch needed most likely.

[johnSW2]

Clarifications,

- new ignition switch, not the lock cylinder
- had a new key cut from the dealer, the old one was way worn down
- 30 amp fuse is the one that burns out, the large green one one the right side of the box (or closer to the passenger compartment) see image
- "how does the starter burn out?", it will no longer engage with the engine, simple spins, meaning I can here a whirring but the engine is not turning over. The shop that previously "fixed" the problem had the new key made and replaced the starter which got it up and running again, but didn't solve the original issue of the starter occasionally staying engaged and thus burning out fuses, which as a result, eventually lead to the starter going bad as it has again.

- I do have a new lock cylinder to install, and have watched richpin's video but have been unable to remove the existing cylinder, I will try again, seems like this is the current theory as to the problem source, do you agree?

[OldNuc]

Look in the cover and postr exactly which fuse that is.

The starter running and engine not cranking is usually a bad-unfixable starter. If you are buying starters from a local parts store you are buying overpriced JUNK. Try here, http://www.dbelectrical.com/p-1009-n...02-satrun.aspx This is NEW and it fits. You pick your shipping but USPS is dead slow.

That fuse is not causing the starter failures.

[billr]

Sorry about misreading, transposed "lock" for "switch"; but verdict is the same: replace the other part now.

Alas, the switch might have been OK, I think that is why you were advised to replace the lock first...

[johnSW2]

Hi OldNuc, thanks for the tip and the cheap parts I'll definitely look that up.

In my previous post I posted an image pointing to the exact fuse which is burning out, so please take a look there. Also, I realize that the fuse is not the issue but rather a symptom of something else. And it is that something else which I am trying to track down, also, the blown out starter is a symptom of the problem as well. Could it really be the lock cylinder causing the short? I am not understanding why that could be the case. Just looking for a little more info here. Thanks for all the advice it is much appreciated.

[billr]

I (we?) are not proposing that the lock cylinder causes a short. Rather, the worn lock does not move the switch fully back to the "run" position when the key is released after starting. This leaves the starter still energized, all the time, and ruins the starter as well as overloading the fuse that was only intended for intermittent operation.

[OldNuc]

You will have to remove the fuse box cover and look at the diagram molded into the lid and then post the actual ID of the fuse. These fuse box layouts are generic 91-02 and they tend to year uniqueness. You are asking for detailed information regarding what is most likely several problems and if you want an intelligent answer then you are going to have to provide some information.

[johnSW2]

Hi thank you all for the responses. I very much appreciate your time and expertise!

billr - thanks for the explanation regarding the lock cylinder, this makes much more sense now, and being that the issues do seem very well linked to the nuance with which I turn the key - definitely my next culprit

OldNuc- I believe the fuse is the IGN4 fuse, I'll have to double check in a day or so when I can make it out to my friend's house to check.

[johnSW2]

Since the car is not at my disposal at the moment, I found the diagram on line, it's the
.
.
.
IGN 3 fuse, see image here
image.jpg

Definitely replacing the lock cylinder this weekend too...

[OldNuc]

I will look at the drawing later today and post back what I find specifically.

IGN-3 feeds the ignition switch and the heater blower motor. That is all.
The ignition switch feeds IGN-3 to the following:
RUN - I/P Panel HVAC and Rear defog relay power to the window heater, ABS traction control, I/P switch.

CRANK - Starter solenoid.

If this fuse only opens when the starter is being cranked then the various loads should be selectively isolated and the starter solenoid wiring inspected between the starter and the ignition switch.

Is this a manual or automatic?

[johnSW2]

an automatic

[OldNuc]

There are a few more parts in the auto crank chain

You mentioned that the starter will run but it does not turn the engine over. Is this still the case? Where exactly are you getting replacement starter from and who is installing it?