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Old 06-10-2019, 10:28 AM   #1
SIRPAULGERMAN
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Default Questions about breaks

I just noticed that my breaks are not working right
the car is not breaking at all, the breaks feel weak, the travel on the break pedal is short, I dont feel any pressure from the breaks, not able to lock the wheels when I hit the breaks.

the breaks pads seems to be fine, the rotors sill the originals almost 200.000 miles on them.
break fluid is full.
I am thinking the rotors are wear out

any idea what cut it be ?

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Old 06-10-2019, 11:05 AM   #2
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

Assuming the front pads still have a decent amount of pad left I'll blame the rear brakes. They may not be worn out but just out of adjustment. If the parking brake takes more than 4 clicks to lock BOTH the rear wheels it's a strong sign the shoes are out of adjustment.

Even if it's acting like the parking brake is fine I'd still adjust the shoes, harder than it sounds because I don't believe GM ever fixed their boo-boo with the adjuster hole being on the wrong side of the drum backing plate.

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Old 06-10-2019, 11:30 AM   #3
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

The shop replaced the rear breaks at 150 000 miles, I think is the front that is not breaking at all

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Old 06-10-2019, 12:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIRPAULGERMAN View Post
I just noticed that my breaks are not working right
the car is not breaking at all, the breaks feel weak, the travel on the break pedal is short, I dont feel any pressure from the breaks, not able to lock the wheels when I hit the breaks.

the breaks pads seems to be fine, the rotors sill the originals almost 200.000 miles on them.
break fluid is full.
I am thinking the rotors are wear out

any idea what cut it be ?
Correction to the thread title: the word here is brakes and not breaks.

When depressing the brake pedal do you find that you need to exert more pressure than normal to get the vehicle to slow down?

With 200K miles on the original rotors you must do a tremendous amount of highway driving to still have those parts in use. Perhaps they should be replaced, but rotors won't cause the type of issue you're describing. Based on the statements above one might think that your master cylinder could be the culprit except that the brake pedal travel is short. A failing master cylinder will typically result in the driver noticing longer brake pedal travel. Perhaps that symptom might appear later. Regardless, this is a serious safety issue and must be corrected ASAP.

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Old 06-10-2019, 12:29 PM   #5
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

Brake booster perhaps? Similar to when you try to brake when the car is off?

I agree, worn rotors won't be felt at the pedal unless there are chunks coming off them or they are warped; and that would be a pulsation.

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Old 06-10-2019, 12:53 PM   #6
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Default Re: Questions about brakes

I wont be using the car until the brakes are fixed.

My plan is to replace the rotors and pads, bled the whole system and see if that will fix the problem with the brakes.

How do I check to see if the master cylinder is out ?

more over when I press the pedal, I dont feel any back pressure, a soft sensation.

Sorry about the typo, is hard to post with a cell phone

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Old 06-10-2019, 01:25 PM   #7
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

Hard pedal and less effective braking does sound like a brake booster problem. Read this ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by nivlem7 View Post
Here's how it works:

The power booster is a big diaphragm that uses vacuum from the intake manifold to "help" you push the brakes. When you shut off the engine, there's some residual vacuum, until you "use it up" with several pumps on the pedal. After that, you're doing all the work yourself, which is why the pedal feels "hard".

Now, when you're still pressing on the pedal, and you start the car, the vacuum is restored, and the pedal falls to the floor, because the vacuum pulling on the diaphragm is "helping" you again.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/power-brake.htm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuetip View Post
I recently replaced the brake booster on my '97 SW1 because I started experiencing a hard pedal and noticeably less stopping power. With the booster replaced, I seem to have significantly more stopping power ....

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Old 06-10-2019, 01:31 PM   #8
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

The pedal is soft

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Old 06-10-2019, 01:52 PM   #9
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIRPAULGERMAN View Post
The pedal is soft
Ah, I see. That contradicts your earlier statement.

Quote:
"travel on the break pedal is short"
That would indicate to me that it was hard as it is not traveling as far. Stopping before the expected amount of travel. Carry on...

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Old 06-10-2019, 06:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: Questions about brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIRPAULGERMAN View Post
I wont be using the car until the brakes are fixed. My plan is to replace the rotors and pads, bled the whole system and see if that will fix the problem with the brakes. How do I check to see if the master cylinder is out?

more over when I press the pedal, I dont feel any back pressure, a soft sensation........
1-Never check brakes with the engine running. Simple test for the brake master cylinder; engine off, press brake pedal several times, slowly each time. Every normal brake pedal press should result in about half travel before the pedal firms up and doesn't travel any further. Brake (hydraulic) pressure means no air in a system and oil is incompressible so the pedal is supposed to stop about half of its full travel (caliper and wheel cylinders moving to press brake pads and shoes against rotors and drums). You should be able to stand on the pedal if the power assisted brake unit fails (or with engine off) without it going to the floor. Spongy pedal feel usually means; air in the brake lines, oil fluid, incorrectly adjusted disc and drum brakes.

2-If pedal falls to the floor and all parts, brake lines are bled correctly, everything adjusted for minimal piston travel in calipers and drums, the master cylinder is worn out.

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Old 06-10-2019, 07:37 PM   #11
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

How many miles does a master cylinder usually last ?

the car has around 200 000 miles on it

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Old 06-10-2019, 10:04 PM   #12
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

Simple answer - for at least the length of a new car warranty. Nothing is guaranteed to last forever after a new car warranty expires so you're well ahead of most with yours lasting 200k miles. Whether or not its worn out remains to be answered.

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Old 06-10-2019, 10:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

i inspected the BRAKE Master Cylinders on a GM pickup truck (95) and two Saturn 'S' cars ('97 & 2000) @ 175kMi; 150kMi, & 170kMi respectively.

They were all about the same ... the bore of the MC was just beginning to show some wear from the piston. I installed a new Delco piston assy on the '97, and went for new master cylinders on the '95 & 2000.

The MC is the heart of the B-R-A-K-E system; a new OEM set of pistons (primary & secondary) should restore functionality for about $40-. A new MC
will restore the heart of the system to new condition... which might make the Inspector happy... for about $80-

Your steel hydraulic lines may have suffered corrosion, and the rear drum Wheel Cylinders are likely shot by now....

There is a "Minimum Thickness" specification which applies to the front rotors, it requires measurement by good calipers or a 'micrometer. !

When replacing/rebuilding either calipers or wheel cylinders, the fluid should flow freely until clear/fresh/new fluid reaches the article in question.

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Old 06-16-2019, 01:51 PM   #14
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

Well I rebuilt the calipers, new pads, new rotors, the only think I lost the copper washers and I regular washer replacement was not working right in order to bleed the brakes.

Do I need 2 copper washer for each bolt ?

I have the felling the master cylinder is broken also, should I replaced ?

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Old 06-16-2019, 02:05 PM   #15
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

Copper banjo washers, one per fitting, crush when tightening bolts to seal against hydraulic pressures. Regular washers do not work.

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Old 06-16-2019, 03:29 PM   #16
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Copper banjo washers, one per fitting, crush when tightening bolts to seal against hydraulic pressures. Regular washers do not work.
Two copper washers per fitting. Bolt, copper washer, banjo fitting, copper washer, then caliper should be the stackup.

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Old 06-16-2019, 05:40 PM   #17
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

^ You are correct. My bad. I didn't review the drawings. A pair of copper washers per banjo brake hose fitting.
Attached Images
File Type: gif disc brake hose.gif (19.5 KB, 7 views)
File Type: gif drum brake hose.gif (22.8 KB, 3 views)

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Old 06-16-2019, 11:19 PM   #18
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIRPAULGERMAN View Post
Well I rebuilt the calipers, new pads, new rotors, the only think I lost the copper washers and I regular washer replacement was not working right in order to bleed the brakes.
Wait a minute here! Are you stating that there was a problem in bleeding the brakes without having the correct washers installed at the fittings with the calipers? Was it just that you needed some washers of any kind in order to bleed the brakes? (The color highlighted portion of the quote fragment is difficult to understand.)

1) Are you certain that all of the air was purged from the system?
2) Were both calipers disconnected from their brake lines, or both bleeder valves open, at the same time? If so, are you required to bleed the rear brakes as well as the front brakes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIRPAULGERMAN View Post
Do I need 2 copper washer for each bolt ?
Answered in previous post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIRPAULGERMAN View Post
I have the felling the master cylinder is broken also, should I replaced ?
The master cylinder on my car is the factory original and is working normally. The service life of this part can vary greatly so don't assume anything about its condition without an accurate diagnosis. Since you've installed the incorrect washers to reconnect the brake lines to the calipers there may be a brake fluid leak at one or both calipers. Please correct that issue first.

3) Have you been needing to add some brake fluid since you performed this caliper repair?
4) Before considering a master cylinder replacement be sure that no leaks are present in the hydraulic system. If your ultimate diagnosis demonstrates that the master cylinder has failed then, yes, it must be replaced.

What I find difficult here within this thread are the conflicting descriptions provided regarding,
5) brake pedal travel ("short" - a failing master cylinder would tend to result in greater pedal travel), and
6) pedal resistance when depressed ("soft" - possibly related to a master cylinder failure, a sizeable fluid leak, or air still trapped in the hydraulic system).

IMO, what seems like the most sensible course of action is to reexamine all of your work and,
a) if necessary, replace anything damaged when the one brake was overheated;
b) bleed the entire brake system (double check it, make sure that fluid exiting the bleeder valves show no presence of even the slightest amount of air [hopefully, you're attaching a clear plastic hose to the bleeder valves so as to view the fluid movement in the most accurate manner]);
c) if after the final brake bleed the brake pedal is showing excessive travel, or a soft, "spongy" feel when depressed then consider replacing the master cylinder.

...
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Last edited by pierrot; 06-16-2019 at 11:31 PM..

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Old 07-10-2019, 03:50 PM   #19
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

I am having hard time connection the fitting to the master brake cylinder, any shortcuts or ideas ?

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Old 07-10-2019, 11:26 PM   #20
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Default Re: Questions about breaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIRPAULGERMAN View Post
I am having hard time connection the fitting to the master brake cylinder, any shortcuts or ideas ?
Please be as clear as possible here. Are you attempting to install a new master cylinder? Are you using a line wrench, preferably a six point box, on the brake line fittings? (If unsure about what a line wrench is look up images on a Google search.) It is imperative that the master cylinder be bled correctly! If unsure of what to do please ask.

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