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Old 03-29-2019, 01:10 PM   #1
Bismarck318
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Default E15

Anyone using this besides myself on occasion? Just became avail in my area in the last 6 months. Nickle to a dime less/gal.

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Old 03-31-2019, 09:36 PM   #2
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Default Re: E15

Just remember it gets a nickel or dime a gallon less mileage so it all equals out. Also your car designed for up to 10 percent ethanol.

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Old 04-01-2019, 06:33 PM   #3
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Default Re: E15

Yeah, you don't really save anything, but the alcohol will do damage to the system.

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Old 04-01-2019, 08:56 PM   #4
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Default Re: E15

If anyone were to examine pricing a gallon of 100% antifreeze against the same gallon but as a 50/50 blend of premixed water and antifreeze, there's a definite disparity. Two gallons of 50/50 premix costs more than one gallon of 100% antifreeze. The one gallon cut with another gallon of water makes two gallons of premix, costing less than buying two gallons of premixed coolant. A similar cost analysis applies to using regular 100% gasoline compared to 10% or 15% ethanol added to gasoline but becomes clouded over by cost comparison unless fuel mileage is applied.

For all intents and purposes, using 100% gasoline (zero ethanol) is the basis for all other costs and fuel mileage comparisons. Costs per gallon and fuel mileage must be taken together to appreciate any real or false benefits. Making things easier might be comparing 10% ethanol/fuel mileage to 15% ethanol/fuel mileage.

A full tank of 10% ethanol costs and total mileage used is compared to a full tank of 15% ethanol used and total mileage. Costs and fuel mileage are now compared to arrive at values reflecting any positive or negative benefits.

In reality, adding ethanol lowers fuel mileage by a few miles compared to 100% gasoline. Adding another 5% ethanol lowers fuel mileage some more. Per gallon costs isn't useful for comparison. Full tank costs and total fuel mileage are compared between 10% and 15% for a better perspective.

In combustion discussions, more ethanol is needed than gasoline per combustion cycle. Air fuel ratios for gasoline is always 14.7:1 - 14.7 parts air to one part fuel. Ethanol air/fuel ratios are around 9:1 - nine parts air to one part ethanol. More ethanol is needed to burn in one cycle compared to gasoline. In heat numbers, gasoline has about 115,000 BTUs while ethanol has about 76,100 BTUs. Ethanol has less heat energy compared to gasoline and needs to be fed in greater amounts per engine combustion cycle. This translates to using more ethanol than gasoline from an air fuel ratio. Going from 10% to 15% ethanol in gasoline is simply lowering fuel mileage no matter what the costs as no one in the petrochemical business is giving anyone discounts on fuel no matter what's said or advertised.

I used the premix antifreeze cost comparison to 100% antifreeze as an example of false advertising to bring honest fuel costs/fuel mileage for a greater perspective when considering 10% to 15% ethanol/gasoline comparisons. Diluting 100% gasoline lowers fuel mileage, period.

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Old 04-03-2019, 10:50 AM   #5
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Default Re: E15

You are saying diluted gasoline with on higher point in octane (88), would think this would be cleaner for the engine & correct I noted my mileage has dropped into the low 16's, though never had fantastic mileage in winter months anyway plus we have special winter formulations starting in November - May here & the car being another year older.

I never understood the premix Prestone (or any coolant for that matter), though now with the sealed systems, disables the inept (such as me) from flushing the coolant systems which I had always done on my vehicles in the past.

We run on the planet Ohth in the winter months @ up to 10% ethanol & E-15, id "up to" 15% so the points may be only negligable in the winter months anyway.

Winter gas formulations... most of you folks will not know anything about though, it's mandated here.

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Old 04-03-2019, 12:20 PM   #6
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Default Re: E15

If I'm not mistaken, winter gasoline is formulated to lower vapor pressure in cold temperatures for easier combustion. The change from summer to winter gasoline occurs to all 48 states with 14 states using lower RVP gasoline; https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...ine-explained/ (one of several informative sites). Going back to base reference of non leaded 100% 87 octane gasoline, fuel mileage for a specific vehicle drops when 10% ethanol is added, drops some more when an additional 5% is added and finally, drops again when switching from summer to winter gasoline. To appreciate fuel mileage for each change would require the same vehicle be driven over the same roads using a full tank and driven by the same driver, repeated in summer then winter conditions. Temperatures, road conditions, traffic and weather influence fuel mileage as well as how hard or soft the right foot applies throttle.

The sealed cooling systems does not mean car owners are prevented from changing antifreeze. Sealed cooling systems means a better designed and more efficient cooling system not venting to the atmosphere by using a plastic radiator cap on the coolant container with the coolant container pressurized as part of the cooling system. The small air volume allows expansion and contraction of coolant without venting at operating pressures. This stops coolant from oxidizing while allowing longer life time use before replacement. The plastic coolant cap is the radiator cap with a pressure and vacuum valve built in. When overheating occurs and pressures exceed rated values, the pressure valve opens to release excess pressures (above 15 or 20 psi). When hot coolant cools down, a vacuum may occur. The vacuum valve opens to allow atmospheric pressure in. This prevents hoses, radiators and heater cores from collapsing. Under normal every day driving conditions with a car in good condition, cooling systems remain sealed - neither over pressurizing nor creating a vacuum hence the term sealed cooling system.

Anyone can replace their antifreeze any time. Radiators still have a drain valve while the coolant container cap is left off. Pulling the lower radiator hose is still the alternative to the radiator petcock.

Last edited by fdryer; 04-03-2019 at 12:25 PM..

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Old 04-04-2019, 01:24 AM   #7
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Default Re: E15

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Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
If I'm not mistaken, winter gasoline is formulated to lower vapor pressure in cold temperatures for easier combustion. The change from summer to winter gasoline occurs to all 48 states with 14 states using lower RVP gasoline;

Anyone can replace their antifreeze any time. Radiators still have a drain valve while the coolant container cap is left off. Pulling the lower radiator hose is still the alternative to the radiator petcock.
I used to use the 85 Knock rating out west with no issues, I don't remember winter formulations at the time this being 20-25 some years ago.

Just was easier to swap coolant, & give the system a good flush out with a T which can't be installed on most of todays vehicles. I had this down to a 20-30 minute operation 9doing a diligent job), on the Vue I paid Take-5 $55 to put god knows what in there, as I don't believe they flushed out the bottle it still looks like dex in there, though I know they did it as I had to run the heater on full & it lost all heat for a while during the exchange.

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Just remember it gets a nickel or dime a gallon less mileage so it all equals out. Also your car designed for up to 10 percent ethanol.
True a wash though the Stations that sell it claim it can be used in 2001's or newer, though, in all fairness, some vehicles cant take certain formulations, my brothers Mitsubishi could not take Sunocos 86 economy option (though at the time Mitsubishi's were not being sold on Planet Ohth). requiring the system to be blown out.

I asked because I occasionally run a half tank of it, though it may clean the system out.

Last edited by Bismarck318; 04-04-2019 at 01:31 AM..

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Old 04-06-2019, 04:32 PM   #8
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Government thatís wants you to use corn universally decided to use 2001 as a year they figure itís ok. Car companies didnít agree. Not at this point would it matter but would void warranty on cars not designed for e15 or e85. Most cars started around 2016 are okd for e15.

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Old 04-07-2019, 08:28 AM   #9
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Default Re: E15

we will all have elec vehicles soon so it does not matter what blend the gas is.

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Old 04-08-2019, 02:14 AM   #10
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we will all have elec vehicles soon so it does not matter what blend the gas is.
Not sure we are going to live to see that day along as "Big Oil" is still around we are going to be force fed whatwever they feed us.... perhaps in 40-50 years?

Speaking of which, GM only had 2 Electrics, the Volt & The Bolt, a few hybrids not universally avail & they claimed years ago they would rather work on the hydrogen fuel cell rather than electrics (whatever happened to that, big oil put the kibish on it?)

So the answer I see in a nutshell is NO, & again if it's so bad for components, what are they making the flex fuel vehicles out of that they can take a higher concentration of alcohol?

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Old 04-08-2019, 11:40 PM   #11
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To many things need to improve before electric cars get big. At this point if you donít own a house you canít have electric car. Thatís a fair amount of people.

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Old 04-12-2019, 10:39 PM   #12
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Default Re: E15

the reason the premixed antifreeze costs more to change your fluid, is the same reason a gallon of spring water or distilled water is not free.

It cost just as much to ship a gallon of water and put it on a store shelf as it does to ship and shelf a gallon of pure antifreeze. You are paying for the convenience of being able to pour it right in your car.

On motorcycle forums there is a lot of debate on how E10 affects your mpgs. Some people think putting 10% alcohol in the gas reduces your mpgs by 15%. That is crazy, that would mean not only is the alcohol not giving you any energy, its using up some of the energy from the 90% gas to burn the alcohol.

After reading those comments for a while I put it to the test. I have a yamaha 650 Vtwin that normally gets 58 to 60mpg. I found a local station that sell ethanol free regular gas, ran the gas tank down till it only had 8 ounces of gas left, filled it up and....

well... the bike seemed to have a little better response on the throttle. It felt like it had more power, totally a subjective feel. I ran it nearly 250 miles, pulled into the station nearly on fumes after a week... filled it up... and I had gotten 59mpgs - exactly the same as running E10. did this twice and got the same results.

To be fair, my motorcycles have carbs, they are not fuel injected, so nothing is trying to self adjust to get an ideal O2 level in the exhaust sensor. I guess that makes sense, the jets in the carbs dont know what the fuel is, you twist the throttle and it pulls the same amount of gas in.

So if anything, running ethanol free gas the mixture was maybe a little bit richer. But the bike was setup at the factory to run on E10. Maybe it was a little more responsive running a little bit rich... but it did not show up at the pump, same mpgs, and the ethanol fuel was 25 cents more per gallon

maybe I got to ride 5 to 10mph faster and accelerate a bit faster that week, while getting the same overall mpg performance...

so that was the end of that: I put E10 in my motorcycles still.

And for the record, I would never run E15 - the bikes are not designed for it.

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Old 04-12-2019, 10:50 PM   #13
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My son recently got a 2011 Chevy Volt. Its a plug in hybrid, that runs on battery power only for the first "40 miles" then a gas engine starts to kick in, and it runs more like the original Prius: battery power running slow, engine off at red lights, and when you get going the engine comes on.. till you plug the car in over night, then you get "40 miles" of battery range again

if you only drive 40 miles to work and back, you might not use any gasoline all week, until you take a longer trip on the weekend.... very cool!

But here is the catch, which I did not expect: I knew that cold weather/temps would lower the storage capacity of the lithium ion batteries. What we have learned, with the temps in just the 30s (F) the battery loses about 25% of its capacity. But... when you turn the heater on it runs off the battery too.

Just driving normally commuting to work with the heater and defroster on, that can take just as much power as the motor moving the car...

So the car is normally rated for 40 miles of range, but in the cold it drops to half that! He is getting only 20 miles when its cold in the morning.

Its still a good hybrid car when the engine kicks on, he is averaging 60 to 70 mpg combined per gallon of gas pumped into the tank. He is looking forward to summer weather to get the full range "40 miles" on battery power, with the heater and AC left off. It is a surreal experience driving the car around with zero engine noise, all you hear are the tires on the pavement.

but somehow this never gets mentioned. Im sure the pure EV cars are in the same boat: if the car, like an early Leaf, is rated for 100 miles on battery power, when its 32F out you only get 50 miles. Those tesla cars that are rated for 300 miles on an overnight charge, will drop to 150 miles in the winter. If you really need to drive 200 or 250 miles a day, that is a problem with a pure EV car.

The only way to get around this would be to park your electric car in a heated garage in the winter (expensive to heat) or have heaters in the car so when you plug in to charge overnight, it also keeps the battery pack at 70F all night, so you have 100% range in the morning.

but even then, if you drive to work and park the car out in the cold, you are going to lose half your remaining battery capacity for the drive home.

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Old 04-14-2019, 05:36 PM   #14
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Default Re: E15

I was going to ask about the Volt, but you answered a few of my questions, but isn't the heater running off a recharging generator? .. in a sense though this is a hybrid when it goes to the backup gas engine then?

The kold isn't so great then? I remember "Dr. Speed" @ Summit telling us kiddies too the cold is wonderful & how to pack your engine bay with ice for more speed.

I've seen older Volts reasonable here, figured they were ready for a battery. Not enamored with what GM did in Lordstown lately either.

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Old 04-15-2019, 12:04 PM   #15
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The Chevy Volt is more sophisticated than imagined. Here's one explanation of cabin heater operation; https://gm-volt.com/2010/12/09/the-c...ems-explained/. Apparently the ev portion may heat up its batteries in cold weather, depleting battery power in addition to cold temperatures reducing battery range. My guess is in extreme cold temps, the battery warms itself, reducing ev range. Cabin heating draws from battery and ice when necessary, complicating hybrids.

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Old 04-15-2019, 05:25 PM   #16
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The volt made sense but thatís not what they want. They want electric only. Seemed to me the volt was the best of both worlds. To bad they donít still make them

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Old 04-15-2019, 08:25 PM   #17
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The topic drifted away from E15. With that in mind, electric vehicles are a topic wholly separate from internal combustion engines.

My guess with initial hybrids was the interim period between fossil fueled vehicles and all electric cars by using a small internal combustion engine (ice) with a small ev battery and ev motor. If I'm not mistaken, the first hybrids used nickel metal hydride with very low capacity until lithium battery technology entered into vehicle use to replace nmh batteries. Even with lithium batteries in hybrid cars, ev use still has a very short range.The compromise for hybrids was to have the longer range of a fossil fueled engine (at the cost of lower power) once the ev battery became depleted to allay fears of extremely short range performance. A small niche market catered to those enjoying commuter trips on battery power without needing gasoline and allowing for longer drives at any time. Short range electric power for inner city/short trips and longer gasoline engine range when the battery became depleted. Both modes with low to moderate power, no muscle cars. The limited demand may be the lynchpin in manufacturers not extending hybrid models when vehicles like Teslas came around meeting long range performance using large lithium battery packs coupled with the charging infrastructure to allow cross country driving without range anxiety. The all electric vehicle is established as second to none when standing next to internal combustion engines.

Fossil fuel will never go away while all electric vehicles are making headway to change perceptions. Perceptions are scaring dealers tied to profitable maintenance services where evs have near zero maintenance. Repair shops are also affected as evs spread with near zero maintenance. While the repair rates of evs are new and not enough to develop a new business paradigm, it would appear suspension parts remains more or less the same as far as wear and tear. The electronics is a whole new affair requiring much more education for the average repair person. I'm not privy to inside info about Tesla diagnosing and troubleshooting with electronics but its very sophisticated. Whether there's similarity to EFI systems and OBD II diagnostics for evs having similar on board diagnostics remains to be seen. I don't know if there are online forums dealing with diyers attempting home repairs to avoid Tesla services. A hint of youtubers seems to share tips amongst Tesla owners.

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Old 04-18-2019, 01:13 PM   #18
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Default Re: E15

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The topic drifted away from E15. With that in mind, electric vehicles are a topic wholly separate from internal combustion engines.

The limited demand may be the lynchpin in manufacturers not extending hybrid models when vehicles like Teslas came around meeting long range performance using large lithium battery packs coupled with the charging infrastructure to allow cross country driving without range anxiety. The all electric vehicle is established as second to none when standing next to internal combustion engines.

Fossil fuel will never go away while all electric vehicles are making headway to change perceptions. Perceptions are scaring dealers tied to profitable maintenance services where evs have near zero maintenance. I don't know if there are online forums dealing with diyers attempting home repairs to avoid Tesla services. A hint of youtubers seems to share tips amongst Tesla owners.
It all ties in, I was reading a recent Car Craft where an article claims a direct drop in device in module to run E85 (flex fuel) in any vehicle, case in point was a '64 Nova, as certain mixes of ethanol/Gasoline yield very high octane ratings that exceed expensive racing fuel. Strange, they don't mention the effects on fuel components in this article.

Of course their device also requires a "Smart Phone" which I never will own.

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if you only drive 40 miles to work and back, you might not use any gasoline all week, until you take a longer trip on the weekend.... very cool!


The only way to get around this would be to park your electric car in a heated garage in the winter (expensive to heat) or have heaters in the car so when you plug in to charge overnight, it also keeps the battery pack at 70F all night, so you have 100% range in the morning.
That would be great for me, I unfortunately have short trips, < 10 mi, & our average temperature here is in the mid 40's (year round average).

You really don't want a salty steel vehicle permeated with road chemistry being brought in a warm garage @ night, which likely will happen in winter months.

Even the GM EV1 Impact had a 90 mile range in it's day apparently the technology needed to be destroyed to sustain. These never really were used in kold climates though.

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Old 04-19-2019, 03:01 PM   #19
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Default Re: E15

If you googled ethanol octane you might come across info stating 113 octane. Ethanol has higher octane than 87 regular due to its chemistry. While great for anyone needing high octane fuel for street or racing, there's a lynchpin attached to running any ethanol percentage. Ethanol is more caustic to certain metals and rubber parts. Ethanol also has the tendency to absorb water. Auto manufacturers early on warned against using ethanol until they determined if fuel system components won't deteriorate. Water absorption automatically creates a corrosion condition to bare metal parts. Certain rubber parts deteriorate from ethanol. 10% was and remains the maximum ethanol content for vehicles manufacturers deem safe for fuel systems and engines. Older cars that were fine on 100% gasoline suffer when ethanol is used - due to fuel system parts incompatibility. Running 85% ethanol changes engine running conditions very few discuss - air/fuel mixtures.

Almost everyone knows air/fuel mixtures of gasoline is 14.7:1 but not ethanol air/fuel mixtures. 100% ethanol is mixed at 9:1 ratios. This means more ethanol is used for the same combustion cycle. Relative to gasoline mixtures, straight ethanol is run very rich in order to have the equivalent power of a gas engine. More ethanol use means the same tank runs down quicker. While more power can be generated from higher octane, a tank goes less mileage. So far, we're only discussing 100% ethanol. Gasoline diluted with 10%, 15% ethanol guarantees lower fuel mileage compared to using straight gasoline. Even less fuel mileage with so called flexible fuel vehicles. Using E85 guarantees lower fuel mileage per tank compared to running 100% gasoline or 10% ethanol. You won't hear from those driving flexible fuel vehicles because they won't reveal their discontent of running a tank of E85 down quickly compared to running a tank of regular. And no one is willing to do the math comparing 100% gasoline, E10, E15, E85 fuel mileage and costs. The political and environmental arguments simply clouds the playing field in determining true fuel mileage and costs. I use the simple analogy of comparing 100% antifreeze against the popular 50/50 mix in costs. If anyone can argue against a one gallon container of 100% antifreeze isn't less costly than two gallons of 50/50 mix, by all means bring your calculator to the discussion. Hint; it's presumed almost everyone knows a gallon of 100% antifreeze can make two gallons of 50/50 antifreeze by simple dilution with water.....

Getting back to ethanol use, very few know that carburetors cannot adjust for ethanol use since mechanical things like carbs need adjustments. To run ethanol may require changing the brass jets controlling fuel mixtures. In EFI systems using injectors, electronics and programming must adjust injector pulse time to meter more ethanol fuel. If an EFI engine isn't programmed for E85 ethanol, the engine will run very lean and stuffer irreparable damage. To date, all manufacturers will stipulate in owner's manuals not to exceed 10% ethanol otherwise engine damage may occur, voiding any warranty. That's because EFI systems can accommodate up to 10% ethanol without detrimental effects. Flex fuel vehicles are programmed to run differently to accommodate regular, mixed E85/regular or 100% E85. Vehicles not programmed to run E85 will suffer from lean fuel mixtures. There's more to ethanol than most are willing to learn to avoid the consequences of ignorance.

Last edited by fdryer; 04-19-2019 at 03:07 PM..

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Old 04-19-2019, 07:57 PM   #20
KCW
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Default Re: E15

one fact has been left out of this discussion: a gallon of ethanol costs much more to produce than a gallon of regular octane gasoline

ethanol production is being subsidized by the federal government to keep the farmers happy, and to extend our fuel supply by 10% by "other means"

I had a typo in my post about using ethanol free fuel in my motorcycle and getting exactly the same miles per gallon. Ethanol free gas is about 25 cents MORE per gallon than E10. The one place you can almost always find it is gas stations near airports, apparently gas engine airplanes use ethanol free fuel and there are carry over gas stations nearby, maybe pilots want to use the same gas in their cars?

But because putting 10% ethanol in the gas increases it octane, you need to use a better grade of gas to have regular petro, and can use cheaper gas if you make E10 to get regular 87 octane...

so between the government subsidizing the ethanol price, and being able to start with a lower octane gas to make E10, leaving that 12 ounces of ethanol OUT of a gallon of gasoline now costs you more to buy E0.

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