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Old 10-12-2019, 11:29 AM   #1
ernesto rex
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Default How Much Of Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)

Bottom line up front:

LS2, 3.0L.

Number 1 & 2 where two teeth off counter clockwise. Number 3 & 4 were one tooth off counter clockwise. That should make the number 1 & 2 off by a total of 3 teeth off.

I think I have a charity car donation in progress. After 19 years and 212k miles I think I got full value out of the purchase.

Bought a new timing belt kit and installed it last week. The car is in a crank but no start condition. The last timing belt kit had 14 months and 15k miles on it. Not sure if it was error on my part 14 months ago when I put it in. Since I was the one that did the work I have to think the blame is all mine.

Going to do compression checks next week.

...
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Old 10-12-2019, 12:32 PM   #2
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Default Re: How Much Off Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)

And it looks like I'm missing an edit button for this post so I can correct some grammar issues in the title.

Insert sad trombone sound here.

...
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Old 10-12-2019, 07:36 PM   #3
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Default Re: How Much Of Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)

Although timing is correctable and nothing bent(?), the crank no start issue may be a dead crank sensor (needed to allow the ecm to run the EFI system). A quick diagnosis would be spraying starting fluid into throttle. If spark occurs, the engine should run from starting fluid. No engine run would suggest a dead crank sensor.

The crank sensor generates precise timing signals, some in the geek community describe these timing signals as pulse trains - non stop analog signals with distinct gaps the ecm is programmed to know which pulse is cylinder #1 for precise timing of injectors and spark. The fuel pump runs from this signal as the ecm needs crank sensor signals to run the entire EFI system. No crank sensor signals = no fuel pump, no spark, no injectors pulses. Spraying starting fluid ensures a fuel feed while counting on spark to ignite it. I do not know if slight mistiming affects starting and running as mechanical timing affects overall camshaft/valve/piston timing for every cylinder to close at the appropriate time for combustion to occur. I'm relying on starting as a source of fuel and spark to run the engine briefly (or not). Not starting would tell me spark is missing. Injectors not pulsing leads me to believe the ecm isn't getting crank sensor signals. Mistimed, off slightly should allow some cylinders to fire. Zero cylinders firing up tells me the crank sensor is dead.

Unfortunately, with our almost inaccessible spark plugs, unless plugs are removed to examine for traces of fuel to check injector operation and also test for spark with coil packs removed and plugs available for spark testing, spraying starting fluid accomplishes injector and spark testing at the same time. This is an all/some or nothing scenario, expecting at least a brief engine startup.

And I want to thank you and others from past threads encouraging me to replace my timing belt recently. Service manuals do nothing for a visual presentation when snapshots of various methods to hold camshafts still while replacing the belt (plastic wire ties or vice grips) does more to encourage those of us timid about first time timing belt replacement. I went with vice grips.

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Old 10-14-2019, 07:12 AM   #4
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Default Re: How Much Off Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)

Thanks for the reply.

The CPS has never been replaced. After reading all the posts about CPS issues I keep wondering when mine will fail. It would be a most wonderful coincidence if if finally decided to go out when I had timing belt issue.

I'm going to make a stop at the local Harbor Freight store this week to pick up a compression testing kit. I'll get some starting spray at the same time.

Results to be posted after testing. Might be a week or more though.

...
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Old 10-27-2019, 08:04 PM   #5
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Default Re: How Much Off Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)

Bottom line up front: It runs.

Purchased a compression testing kit. Dissembled the top end just enough to get access to the spark plugs. Squirted a little engine oil in each cylinder and started testing. 1-3-5 cylinders were 111, 113 and 127. 2-4-6 were 115, 109 and 101. Just good enough for a cold engine and way better that i would expect to see if there were any valve damage.

Put it all together and attempted a start. It took a few cranks but it started. Lots of blue smoke from the oil I squirted in each cylinder. I had some lifter taping until it warmed up.

I noticed that one or more of my timing belt pulleys has a little bit too much tightening torque on it. Noisy. I'm going to let the car set until next weekend and go back in and back off the retaining bolts just a little bit.

...
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Old 10-27-2019, 11:42 PM   #6
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Default Re: How Much Off Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ernesto rex View Post
Bottom line up front: It runs.

Purchased a compression testing kit. Dissembled the top end just enough to get access to the spark plugs. Squirted a little engine oil in each cylinder and started testing. 1-3-5 cylinders were 111, 113 and 127. 2-4-6 were 115, 109 and 101. Just good enough for a cold engine and way better that i would expect to see if there were any valve damage......
If the point made in your OP is correct then it's not surprising that these compression readings are low. In the 2000 Saturn L81 FSM (3.0L V6) it states that the "Standard" compression is 190 psi "hot" while the "Service Limit" is 180 psi "hot."

The compression test results you've shared following a "wet" compression test are rather bad. With cyl. #6 currently at 101 psi it is only one pound above the bare minimum compression considered acceptable by the factory. Although it would be best if you had a dry test with figures to compare with your wet test results it is clear that there is trouble with the engine.

If the timing could be restored/corrected then a more accurate assessment of the engine's health can be reached. However, if that is not possible and the numbers provided remain as they are then - in all likelihood - this engine is seeing its last days even if it remains driveable. I would hope that the donor car you referred to has a good engine in it.

...
321,000 miles - Holy canolli!
The blessings of liberty erode in my country.
Gov't's grown bigger, but a chance exists that it will be reduced. I'm cautiously hopeful.

Last edited by pierrot; 10-27-2019 at 11:57 PM..

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Old 10-28-2019, 12:32 AM   #7
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Default Re: How Much Off Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pierrot View Post
......Although it would be best if you had a dry test with figures to compare with your wet test results it is clear that there is trouble with the engine...

If the timing could be restored/corrected then a more accurate assessment of the engine's health can be reached. However, if that is not possible and the numbers provided remain as they are then - in all likelihood - this engine is seeing its last days even if it remains driveable. I would hope that the donor car you referred to has a good engine in it.
I appear to have contradicted myself with the above quoted segments. Here's how a corrected version should've appeared in my previous post:

(If the timing could be restored/corrected then a more accurate assessment of the engine's health can be reached. However, if that is not possible and the numbers provided remain as they are then - in all likelihood - this engine is seeing its last days even if it remains driveable. I would hope that the donor car you referred to has a good engine in it.)

...
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Old 10-28-2019, 07:26 AM   #8
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Default Re: How Much Off Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)

Thanks for the reply.

I'm going back in next weekend to check the retention nut torque values on the idler and tension pulleys. I'll check the timing at the same time.

As far as donor cars, this is the one that was going to get donated if things didn't work out. The plan for this car over the last 10 years was to have it fall apart all at the same time so that scraping it would be an easier decision.

I was looking at getting new tires and doing a four corner brake job in the next six months before all the engine drama started. Now i'm not so sure that I want to spend $500(ish) on tires and $250(ish) on brakes for what is probably a $500-$700 dollar car on a good day.

...
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2002 MINI Cooper R50

1978 GMC PU 7.4L

Last edited by ernesto rex; 10-28-2019 at 07:28 AM.. Reason: Grammar

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Old 10-28-2019, 09:56 AM   #9
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Default Re: How Much Of Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)-are the days of reman engine swaps over?

hi Ernesto, fd and pierrot- looks like it may be curtains for this V6 engine. in my 20 years with my 01 L sedan(4cyl. clutch popper), I have never seen nor heard of a rebuilt/remanufactured engine swap . used to be various companies remanufactured shot engines(flatheads, gm and ford small v8s, Chrysler slantsixes and vw horizontally opposed flat 4s among others). once bought a reman slantsix for my 77 dodge and a 223 ford straight ohv 6 for my 55 ford. both had no problems, were warranted for 1 year and worked fine. swapped them myself. from a company in Philadelphia called recon engines. doubt rebuilt v6s for the SaturnL are available but what about the more common 4cyl? would seem an easier solution for Ernesto if that market is still available. thanks tons bob f

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Old 10-28-2019, 10:39 AM   #10
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Default Re: How Much Off Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ernesto rex View Post
As far as donor cars, this is the one that was going to get donated if things didn't work out. The plan for this car over the last 10 years was to have it fall apart all at the same time so that scraping it would be an easier decision.
Ah...my misunderstanding. I thought that perhaps you knew of a donor car with a good engine that you could acquire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
hi Ernesto, fd and pierrot- looks like it may be curtains for this V6 engine...

doubt rebuilt v6s for the SaturnL are available but what about the more common 4cyl? would seem an easier solution for Ernesto if that market is still available. thanks tons bob f
If what you're suggesting is installing a 2.2L in place of the V6 then it may be possible. However, it will minimally require replacing wiring harnesses, removing the TCM, installing a PCM, power steering pump and hoses, A/C compressor and hoses, and additional exhaust system pieces. Of course, if one seeks out a used engine at a wrecking yard many of those pieces can be removed with the engine at the same time.

Notwithstanding the subject of this thread and the OP's situation, a question for all of us with old/older cars at some time will be reached: when a large repair cost comes due is it worth it to make the repair or let the car go as the value of the car has reached a low level? I am at that point now, but can stave if off - as long as the engine and transmission hold up - by doing much of my own repair work. We all have to determine how best to deal with that issue when it arises.

...
321,000 miles - Holy canolli!
The blessings of liberty erode in my country.
Gov't's grown bigger, but a chance exists that it will be reduced. I'm cautiously hopeful.

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Old 10-28-2019, 01:39 PM   #11
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Default Re: How Much Of Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)

Buy the new Tesla Y suv. All electric and rechargeable at home as long as PG&E keeps the electricity on........

Ok, wait until I put up a shield, anticipating all the stones being thrown at me.

All kidding aside, until Tesla service improves along with other issues not brought up on sites discussing Teslas, service seems to be lagging a great deal when minor fender benders occur and replacement parts are not stocked for timely repairs. Great ev and now that PG&E decided this year to shut power anticipating spreading more fires from live power lines downed from wild fires, many may be considering personal power generation to stave off random power shut downs.

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Old 10-29-2019, 07:22 AM   #12
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Default Re: How Much Off Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)

And I apologize to all of the kind people who replied for my confusing word choice in the OP. Not only did I use "of" instead of "off" in the title, I should have said donation car instead of donor car.

If things looked bad, and they still might not work out, the car was going to get donated to one of the many charities that accept working and non-working cars.

The plan was to by a new or gently used car for the wife next year and then I take over her VUE. Maybe I can eek out another 10000 miles out of the LS2. Fingers crossed.

...
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Old 10-29-2019, 07:24 AM   #13
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Default Re: How Much Of Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)

hi sages- actually I was thinking of getting a reman 4cyl engine from a supplier(if such still exists) to swap into my 4cyl L 100 when it blows to hell. car has 185k and runs well. burns a quart about every 1k. always prefer to price things out and do anticipatory planning to avoid the cleaners. any thoughts my bruthas or do my efforts seem futile. don't want fat monthly car payments anymore. any experience recently with engine rebuilder businesses? thanks tons bob f

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Old 10-30-2019, 07:35 AM   #14
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Default Re: How Much Off Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pierrot View Post


Notwithstanding the subject of this thread and the OP's situation, a question for all of us with old/older cars at some time will be reached: when a large repair cost comes due is it worth it to make the repair or let the car go as the value of the car has reached a low level? I am at that point now, but can stave if off - as long as the engine and transmission hold up - by doing much of my own repair work. We all have to determine how best to deal with that issue when it arises.
This statement really speaks to the emotional part of my problem. My emotional brain still sees a bright shiny new car staged in the delivery spot at the Saturn of Wausau dealership with the don't touch me I'm going home today sign. The logical side of the brain says it is a 19 year old car with over 200k on the odometer and needs to be recycled sooner rather than later.

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Old 10-30-2019, 11:29 AM   #15
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Default Re: How Much Of Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)

Before timing and compression test, did this engine idle as smooth as it did when new? If I'm not mistaken, low compression results were recorded with missed timing, correct? If correct then readjusting to correct timing may improve compression all around. Was fuel mileage noticeable after the first timing belt change?

With my mistake in timing and learning about my new scantool, I'm interested in whether or not fuel mileage changes for the better or at least returns to previous levels. I'm only on my second tank.

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Old 10-30-2019, 11:30 AM   #16
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Default Re: How Much Of Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)

I understand your feelings, however I will continue to repair as needed the cars I own. I have a 2002 Saturn L200/5 with 230,000, a 2006 Navigator with 198,000 and my 84 Diesel GMC pickup. No car payments now that the Navigator is paid off a few years ago.

...
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Old 10-31-2019, 07:09 AM   #17
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Default Re: How Much Of Is Too Much? (Timing Belt)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Before timing and compression test, did this engine idle as smooth as it did when new? If I'm not mistaken, low compression results were recorded with missed timing, correct? If correct then readjusting to correct timing may improve compression all around. Was fuel mileage noticeable after the first timing belt change?

With my mistake in timing and learning about my new scantool, I'm interested in whether or not fuel mileage changes for the better or at least returns to previous levels. I'm only on my second tank.
Looking back at the whole event (talking July until now) there was a little miss in the idle on cold startup and when sitting at an intersection with the AC on which I just shrugged off to old age and spark plugs at the end of their service life. Looking at my spread sheet the MPG was at it's yearly average until the last fill up, and then it only decreased by 2.5 MPG below average.

I should clarify that my compression tests were performed after the timing was "corrected". My intent is to go back to the timing adjustments this weekend to confirm some torque settings on some idler pulley fastener bolts.

...
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