SaturnFans.com
saturnfans.com - classifieds - forums - webmail


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series Tech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-19-2010, 10:03 AM   #1
NICKSL
Junior Member
NICKSL is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15
Default 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

I have a 1999 saturn that when I take it out for a run it just dies like it is getting too much fuel. It has been sitting for about a year as I did not need to use it. It has a new battery, a new clutch and slave cylinder.

I cecked the codes and it came up as a P0122, indiacting a problem with the TPS so I replaced it. Still have the same problem. I have changed the fuel filter and checked that the fuel pump still runs and they are good.

I am thinking that it might be the Crankcase postion sensor or the Engine coolant sensor.

Could it be anything else? Am I heading in the right direction?
NICKSL is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 07-19-2010, 10:19 AM   #2
aaron95sl2
Advanced Member
aaron95sl2 is on a distinguished road
 
aaron95sl2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 527

1995 SL2
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

Congrats, you learned your first Saturn lesson: don't go throwing parts at it until you check with us here (unless you're bored and really rich )

Lesson number two: check/replace the engine coolant sensor. This is the first thing you do to any Saturn (assuming you don't know if it's ever been replaced before). The original sensors were plastic and cracked, and they tell the engine that it's cold all the time. This leads to a handful of problems.

The CPS (crank position sensor) has been known to fail when warm before, but rarely. Symptoms include no spark from the coil packs. If you're getting spark, it's working.

The ECTS (engine coolant temp sensor) is ~$12, two minutes of easy labor, requires a 13mm deep socket. Change that first, unless you know it's been done recently. Also check the connector on it for corrosion.

Then we'll go from there.
...
1995 SL2 | Fully loaded | 165k on odometer |30k on new engine w/ KB-S pistons - not a single drop of oil lost so far!
aaron95sl2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2010, 05:17 PM   #3
NICKSL
Junior Member
NICKSL is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

Ok, I have changed out the crankcase Sensor and the Engine coolant sensor and it is still doing the same thing. The connections look to be good for both and there doesnt appear to be any decay in the wires.

I left the car running for about 15 mins and it dies out again.

The fuel pump is still going, a good flow from the relief valve.

There are no codes coming up on m ODBii scanner either.

Where should I go next?
NICKSL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2010, 07:00 PM   #4
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 44,021
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

The next time the engine dies out, get out and test for spark immediately; not only does the cps have a habit of failing from engine heat but old corroded ignition modules suffer too. The first choice for a no-spark issue would be the cps with the ignition module following close behind. If removing and thoroughly cleaning the ignition module/coils doesn't correct the problem, replace the ignition module. Junk yard ignition modules/coils are cheaper and work just as well as new.
...
VCX NANO
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2010, 09:12 PM   #5
NICKSL
Junior Member
NICKSL is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

Ok, How often does the Fuel posiiton sensor crap out? The car runs fine then gets a bust of fuel and boggs down.

I got a code of P0405 indicating the fuel position sensor or wiring harness at the kick panel or the PMC.

The harness does not show any problems. The car does run regularly but dies out after time so would it be the PMC? or the fuel position sensor?

Either way it looks like I am dropping the tank to fix this issue. Should I replace the fuel pump at the same time?
NICKSL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2010, 09:14 AM   #6
NICKSL
Junior Member
NICKSL is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

I also cleaned out the EGR. Itwas carboned up a bit but still operated. All the codes are cleared and it still dies. No codes coming up this time so I am at a loss. Could it be the fuel tank pressure sensor?
NICKSL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2010, 01:05 AM   #7
NICKSL
Junior Member
NICKSL is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

Update: I have double checked all the connections, they are clean, shiny, and no signs of corrotion. There is a small cut in the yellow wire from the ECTS but the continuity over this area stays up, tested it when it died, again!

I pulled the coil wires when it died and a nice big blue spark flies across the terminals that you can see in full daylight. Coils are good!

I did however try to clean the vacuum ports on top of the throttle body and the rubber piece that snuggs up the port to the lines flipped off and I can not find it anywhere. Does anyone know what this gasket is called so I can get another one? I looked everywhere for it and it has done a vanishing act on me.

Still heading to the fule tank pressure sensor but I am getting fuel, and a good amount of it, when the car dies. It flies out of the valve by the EGR when depressed, even after it sits for a while.

I really need help with this one.
NICKSL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2010, 10:57 PM   #8
d16tr
Member
d16tr is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SC
Posts: 110

1995 SW2
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

Hi,

I had a very similar problem, and since I've changed my ECTS long time ago, this time I changed the CPS (yesterday) and the car has been running since then with no problems. CPS is less than $25 original part. Changing took me 30 minutes (I am no pro) ... so I am too suggesting that you change the CPS.

Good luck!


Quote:
Originally Posted by NICKSL View Post
Update: I have double checked all the connections, they are clean, shiny, and no signs of corrotion. There is a small cut in the yellow wire from the ECTS but the continuity over this area stays up, tested it when it died, again!

I pulled the coil wires when it died and a nice big blue spark flies across the terminals that you can see in full daylight. Coils are good!

I did however try to clean the vacuum ports on top of the throttle body and the rubber piece that snuggs up the port to the lines flipped off and I can not find it anywhere. Does anyone know what this gasket is called so I can get another one? I looked everywhere for it and it has done a vanishing act on me.

Still heading to the fule tank pressure sensor but I am getting fuel, and a good amount of it, when the car dies. It flies out of the valve by the EGR when depressed, even after it sits for a while.

I really need help with this one.
...
Audere est facere.
d16tr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2010, 11:12 PM   #9
wscreate
Member
wscreate is on a distinguished road
 
wscreate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 467
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

Another possibility is that the ignition control module is failing. I have learned that, like the CPS which goes bad when engine is heated up, an ICM will work fine and fail occasionally, making it difficult to track down the problem. If you check for spark, it will often spark fine, but will fail to spark later on when driving.

I have done a lot of thread reading about stalling issues with possible spark problems and, though many people seem to suspect the CPS first, a bad ignition control module will give the same symptoms and is at least equally likely to be the cause of an intermittent stalling problem.

It's worth considering the ICM as the culprit while you trouble shoot. I purchased a used one from a junkyard with two coil packs for $28.00 and it works like a champ. An ICM will cost you about $110-$150 new.

Last edited by wscreate; 07-21-2010 at 11:20 PM. Reason: more info
wscreate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010, 12:48 AM   #10
NICKSL
Junior Member
NICKSL is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

Thanks for the info. I will get myself an ICM and see if that helps out.

It would be nice if the ICM would throw a code or 2 so I would know where the issues was. Isn't that what the computers are supposed to do? There i go, thinking logically!

I'll let you know what happens with the ICM change out.
NICKSL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010, 12:25 PM   #11
wscreate
Member
wscreate is on a distinguished road
 
wscreate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 467
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

Quote:
Originally Posted by NICKSL View Post
It would be nice if the ICM would throw a code or 2 so I would know where the issues was. Isn't that what the computers are supposed to do? There i go, thinking logically!
When my stalling problem first appeared, it did not throw a code. About 5 days later, the stalling got much worse suddenly and it caused a Code 19 which is a 6x Signal Fault or some obscure such and such. My code 19 indicated a bad ICM. I replaced it and she runs like a champ once again. Here is the thread I started about the issue. It has some useful info in it.
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=156505
wscreate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2010, 04:37 PM   #12
NICKSL
Junior Member
NICKSL is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

Thanks, I am looking at the ICM next. I took it off and cleaned it up today but it still died out. I am going to check the wreckers for one I can take off and drop in.

This thing is driving me nuts. Well, actually leaving me sitting beside the road in a dead car frustrated!

I am also looking at the fuel canister sensor but not sure about that far back.
NICKSL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2010, 04:56 PM   #13
76oldsguy
Member
76oldsguy is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Panama City Fl.
Posts: 83

1998 SL2
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

Hmmm 12 replys and not 1 mention of having the fuel PSI checked. Just becouse it has fuel comming out dont mean it is at the correct PSI.
...
98 sl2 DOHC Auto 147,000 miles.
76 Olds 442 Auto78,000 miles.
95 sw2 DOHC Auto 200,000 miles
76oldsguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 03:52 PM   #14
NICKSL
Junior Member
NICKSL is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

Update. I have replaced the ICM today with one that I got from a wreckers. Same problem! Dies when it has ran for about 10-15 mins! There has to be a fix for this!

Where do I go next?
NICKSL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 04:24 PM   #15
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 44,021
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

If you can borrow a fuel pressure gauge from Autozone, check pressures. Losing spark or fuel are the only two issues to chase. It can also be a loose ground wire as there are many placed in strategic locations for grounding circuits. One main one can be for the pcm and the other on the engine block near the ects/egr valve. If its a wiring issue you may be hunting and a plan is needed to systematically go over wiring and connections methodically to eliminate one connection at a time.
...
VCX NANO
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 04:54 PM   #16
NICKSL
Junior Member
NICKSL is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

Thanks for the info. I would have thought that a grounding issue would be doing it all the time, weather it was hot or cold! This only happens when it is warm.

I'll check the actual fuel presssure this weekend. But again, why would that change with temperature? something has to be stopping working every time for it to cut out. The fuel pump runs after it shuts down, I can hear it from the trunk. If it were the pump itself cutting out, then when the car stops and the key is turned the pump would not be working, but the pump is working every time. It just turns over. A check of the fuel supply to the engine fire right up to the hood so the pressure is there. Still not throwing any codes for me to look up.

Something electrical I think is the right direction but where to look?
NICKSL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 05:33 PM   #17
76oldsguy
Member
76oldsguy is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Panama City Fl.
Posts: 83

1998 SL2
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

A bad fuel pump will still run But it will not have the PSI needed to run the engine. When the pump warms up good it will drop PSI and then it will shut off. I have been in the same boat as you. I checked the PSI cold and it was 37 PSI and when the car shut off it was 15 PSI. Replaced the pump and it is still going strong.
...
98 sl2 DOHC Auto 147,000 miles.
76 Olds 442 Auto78,000 miles.
95 sw2 DOHC Auto 200,000 miles
76oldsguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 07:16 PM   #18
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 44,021
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

All EFI fuel pumps should be OFF when the engine is either shut down with the ignition switch or when something causes the engine to shut down. The fuel pump should never be running at this point and is a hazard waiting for the opportunity to........

A constantly running fuel pump suggests a stuck fuel pump relay set of contacts. The next time you turn off the engine and still hear the pump running, pull the fuel pump relay immediately and check again for a running pump. If this were occurring longer than you realized then it may be possible for the pump prematurely wearing out sooner than expected. A replacement relay would only cure the sticking relay contacts but not fix a worn out fuel pump. You may have to consider the pump worn out. Verify this odd issue of your pump running after turning off the engine and pulling the relay to kill power to the pump.
...
VCX NANO
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 11:49 PM   #19
NICKSL
Junior Member
NICKSL is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

Just to update on what I meant by running fuel pump. It will run for a few seconds and then it shuts down. It will do this when the key is turned to the on position but the engine not running.

I will be testing the Fuel pressure as soon as I can get my hands on a gauge, hopefully sometime this week.

I will update the list when I get the results.
NICKSL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2010, 01:29 AM   #20
NICKSL
Junior Member
NICKSL is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15
Default Re: 1999 SL1 engine quits when warm

Update,

The guy I have looking at the car has done a complete check and has narrowed it down to the fuel tank/fuel pump area. All the connectiong are good for every other part of the engine. Plan now is to drop the tank and check the connections there before pulling the fuel pump.

Fuel pressure is good when started and cold, holds at 55PSI but drops 10PSI a min about 10 mins after startup intil it hits 10PSI then dies.

Can't figure out why it would be ok one min then drop the next. A connection issue should not do that. It would be good or bad, not drop off when hot.

Crap in the tank maybe? MAybe the filter inside the tank gets clogged up when running. Then when the car sits for a while the crap moves away from the intake allowing it to start again? With the PSI being up that high this could be an answer. Any thoughts?
NICKSL is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
03 6cyl engine quits dcooke570 Vue Tech 5 06-08-2010 07:16 AM
warm engine = miss in engine that i cant find adhsc2 S-Series Tech 8 02-04-2008 10:08 AM
1999 SL2 Tranny slips when warm sabboo S-Series Tech 0 04-14-2006 04:36 PM
Ls2 engine dies after warm up treble L-Series Tech 0 06-13-2004 12:48 PM
Cold engine fine, warm engine misses ?? Scyan S-Series Tech 9 11-05-2002 12:08 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:31 AM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.