Brake line won't bleed

[up north]

Good day

On my 98 SW1 no ABS a rear brake line started pissing. I underwent to change the two rear lines (this is the third and fourth lines that I change). It was going well until the bleeder on the rear driver side broke off. So I put a pan under and gravity let the brake fluid reservoir empty itself. Couple of days later I changed the wheel cylinder with a new one, refilled the reservoir and opened the bleed valve, I waited for a while and nothing came out. I tried to siphon with a tube, got a bit of fluid out with some air but I had to keep a vacuum in the hose or else the fluid would go back in. Got my son tho assist me with the bleeding by pressing down on the pedal while the motor is running, opening then closing the bleed valve release the pedal etc.. Nothing came out. I'm wondering if the master cylinder got damaged when It ran out of fluid, but it had already ran out a first time when I changed the tubing. If so how can I fix it.

Thank you in advance for the response.

[fetchitfido]

You don't bleed the brakes with the engine on.

Due to the screwy way the brake system is designed you may need to bleed the front passenger one to get anything from the rear driver. You may also need a vacuum bleeder to get enough of a vacuum to suck the fluid through.

I do it 1 person style...pump the pedal 3-4 times, block the pedal down with a block of wood braced off the seat then go crack the bleeder until the block drops. If I'm using my vacuum pump then I just have it suck fluid until air isn't coming out with the fluid, the downside to this is it can be darn near impossible to get a air-tight seal from the hose to the bleeder so it's hard to tell where the air bubbles are coming from unless the hose is brand new & clear.

[up north]

I bleed the front drivers side with no problem at all.

[fetchitfido]

Slightly long-winded guide, skipped over the "history and why" bit on page 1 to get straight to the "how" on page 2: http://www.teamscr.com/motorsports/t...owall=&start=1

[billysvue]

Great guide, but you can simplify it with maxing out the amount of pumps and firing the assistant, if none is available. The reservoir can hold more than three pumps before draining to a critical level.

I think the main point mentioned that's key, is the closed end wrench on the bleed screw, then, the tubing over the bleeder. Allowing air into the system resets everything back to square one, so w/o the tubing into a container of liquid , the effort is pointless.

I've even used a tiewrap , on occasion ,on oversize clear vinyl tubing( I couldn't find the exact ID of the OD of the bleeder tit); the end wrapped in copper wire scrap to weigh it down in the liquid,,,, so who says you can't work on your car in the plumbing aisle an HOme CHeepo? Heck, I even fixed a leaky gas cap with a 'bath shoe gasket' http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=211929
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Partsmast...8481/301348639from the same area.

On my Vue, the drill was the passenger rear bleeder cracked(after proper setup, as ^), 15 pumps(0 your res. may hold less), close bleeder, fill res,repeat three times or until visual inspect of tubing is clear and NO bubbles.
REpeat on other bleeders as noted per service instruction.

[Saturn Night]

You need to bleed your master cylinder, if you let it run empty. The composition of brake fluid makes is "uncompressible". So, it moves like a liquid form of a cable. If you have air, between pockets of fluid, and you push the brake pedal, the fluid will push the air down the line.

However, releasing the brake pedal creates a vacuum in the brake system. So, this pulls the air(that was pushed from the master cylinder into the lines), back into the bottom of the reservoir.

To bleed the master cylinder, you will need to crack the flare nut on each of the four brake lines, one at a time. It is recommended to have rags or a small drain pan underneath the master cylinder, as brake fluid can absorb moisture and become corrosive if left to sit on metal surfaces.

The bleeding sequence is as follows:

Right-Rear
Left-Front
Left-Rear
Right-Front

You will want to trace the lines, so you crack the correct flare nut. It is recommended to buy a 10mm and a 13mm flare nut wrench, as crescent wrenches will damage the flare nuts and strip them out.

When you crack them a few threads, you will begin to see air bubbles and trace amounts of fluid. Once you have a steady drip, you can tighten down that line's flare nut. Do NOT pump the pedal. Do NOT run the engine.

If you break the line open, and you don't see fluid, tap the break pedal lightly. You only need enough pressure to get the fluid moving. Fully pushing the break pedal will cause the fluid to move, and suck air back into the master cylinder, because you are releasing it with an open fitting.

Do ONLY ONE line at a time.

You must bleed ALL FOUR master cylinder fittings, before your follow the exact same sequence for each wheel cylinder and brake caliper.

Make sure you keep the fluid level above the base of the reservoir. Keep the fluid high enough that it is is around 1/2 full or higher, during the entire process.

You can manually bleed the lines, by having a helper pump the brakes, open the bleeder on the wheel cylinders/brake calipers, and closing it BEFORE your helper releases the pedal.

[up north]

Thank's for the reply, I'll buy a couple of flare wrench's this morning and get on it.
What worry's me is the hut on front passenger's side was never changed and the line look's fused to the nut. I'll spray some PB on it before I leave and hope for the best. I had to cut the rear lines near the master cylinder to get the nut out. The line would turn with the nut.

[Medtactics]

Just do what i did, get a brake pump, here

Once you let the master drain you need a pump, especially if you have a ABS unit.

You will need a way to remove fluid from the reservoir, i used a turkey injector at family doller.

No need to do all that extensive show-stopper crap in the post above. Granted its labor day weekend i just realized and you won't receive it till Wednesday with overnight shipping.

[Waiex191]

I'll add my 2 cents. If a line won't bleed I generally suspect a MC that needs to be bled or there is a leak somewhere. I noticed, after the fact, my ABS MC seems to have bleeders. Since I didn't spot them, I popped off the lines one at a time and used my finger as a seal. It won't seal when your helper steps on the brake, which is good. You want that air out. It will seal when they let up. If it is not bleeding after that, clean up the mess, pump the brakes and look for more fluid escaping. Fix the leaks and bleeding gets easy.

[fetchitfido]

Originally Posted by Waiex191

I noticed, after the fact, my ABS MC seems to have bleeders. Since I didn't spot them, I popped off the lines one at a time and used my finger as a seal. It won't seal when your helper steps on the brake, which is good. You want that air out. It will seal when they let up. If it is not bleeding after that, clean up the mess, pump the brakes and look for more fluid escaping. Fix the leaks and bleeding gets easy.

So close, yet so far lol
FSM says to loosen the brake lines enough to let fluid out under pressure then tighten...exactly like doing a caliper/cylinder (and still 1 at a time). Then you don't have to worry about air getting back in while you're fussing with the line that won't thread in while your hand(s) are being coated with DOT3.

I didn't know those push pumps were so cheap, last time I looked for one the basic model started at $150!

[fdryer]

up north, was this old brake fluid that drained out from master cylinder thru the rear brake lines? If brake fluid was never replaced over the years, dirt as well as congealed fluid may have formed and clogged the master cylinder from gravity feed. Despite naysayers, brake fluid needs to be replaced periodically, at least once when new disc brakes are replaced. Brake calipers accumulate brake fluid as pads wear down. When pads are replaced, pressing caliper pistons forces brake fluid back thru lines and into the master cylinder. Since brake fluid absorbs moisture, corrosion may occur within the brake system invisibly. When the master was refilled and pumped, all old fluid fills the lines. The lines have old fluid, dirt and any other stuff from the master.

Flushing brake systems are easy by using a turkey baster to suck out old fluid from the master then refilling with fresh fluid. All flushing and bleeding fills lines with fresh fluid as old fluid is bled out.

With new fluid in the master, pump the brake pedal slowly to allow new fluid to fill the two piston chambers, release pedal slowly since air exists in the lines, several times until some pressure is felt. With at least one line full of air, you're probably pumping and sucking air back into the master. If pumping doesn't pressurize the lines, you may have to use a pressure bleeder or vacuum bleeder to suck air out each line until brake fluid flows freely. With small diameter lines, it shouldn't take long to remove air and fill lines with fluid to continue bleeding procedures.

Pressure bleeders are sold or home made and require a custom setup to pressurize each master cylinder. A hand held vacuum pump, tubing and small plastic container to capture air and fluid can work on bleed screws to pull air and fluid thru lines. Each has its quirks but their purpose is to help push or vacuum air and fluid thru the master or brake lines.

[up north]

up north, was this old brake fluid that drained out from master cylinder thru the rear brake lines?

Yes this was used fluid that gravity drained. I just came back from the store, bought flared nut wrench and a syringe type vacuum pump. I'm going to open the problem line at the MC to see if it bleeds and then try a couple a pointers that I got so far from you guys.

[Saturn Night]

Make sure you pump the brakes slowly, when you do. Old fluid with corrosion can damage the rubber o-ring seals on the piston, as well as the MC bore. Bleeding has a tendency to bring the piston travel into the bore areas it hasn't seen in many years. There is no rebuild for a worn/damaged MC bore. If the MC bors is worn or damaged, it is to be replaced with new one.

[up north]

Update on the situation.

All is well, What I did is I opened the nut on the MC of the rear drivers side brake (the one that was'int bleeding) and no fluid came out. I then flared about 1 foot of tubing with 13 mm nut and screwed on the MC. I took a piston type syringe, filled it half way with brake fluid and slowly injected throw the tubing into the MC. I the took off the nut from the MC and fluid was leaking out of it. Reattached the line to the MC.
I then bleed again the whole system from furthest wheel to the MC to the nearest (motor off).

Went for a test drive, and it break well.
I'm glad to have done it myself. The garage just cuts the old line and tie wraps the new one with the old one. I managed to take the old one out and put the new in.

My fleet of SATURN's
98 SW1 red
98 SW1 red
98 SL1 tan
99 SW1 blue
99 SW2 blue
00 SL2 green (scrap tranny)
02 SW2 brown
04 SC1 red

[Saturn Night]

Great job getting the air out. Thanks for the update.