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Old 06-27-2001, 11:45 AM   #1
BobC
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Default "Change Oil Soon" Warning Light

There's a discussion going on over at the General Discussion board that has posed some interesting questions regarding oil change intervals. The answers given so far are less than specific, mostly because the subject is one to which a lot of people are biased towards the old adage used by Fram to advertise its oil filters: "You can pay me now, or pay me later," i.e., change engine oil every 3,000 miles or risk it blowing up on you.

I don't want to go down that road (again), but I would like to hear the definitive answer to two questions:
(1) What--specifically--does the sensor for the "Change Oil Soon" light moniter?
(2) What, if any, mileage factor can be added to the oil change interval if synthetic oil is used?

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Old 06-27-2001, 01:46 PM   #2
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BobC;
The 2000 L Series Handbook stated that the light came on after the program considered RPMs,mileage and operating temperatures and when "there is less than 5% oil life left". I asked Saturn to confirm this info and specifically how they can determine "oil life left" without having a sample of the oil lab tested.There were a number of e-mails exchanged with the final result being that Saturn confirmed that the program considered only the op temp,mileage and RPMs and that the "5% oil life left" was derived from the other 3 items.The 2000 L Handbook (Second Edition) was issued in spring of 2000 and the reference to "5% oil life left" was deleted.I note that it is not mentioned in the 2001 Handbook either.

This exchange of e-mails also covered oil change intervals.The 2000 L Handbook said that under dusty,humid,heavy use conditions,change oil and filter at 3 months/3000 miles.If these conditions did not apply,it said to change after 6 months or when 'change oil soon' light came on,whichever was first.....no mention of mileage. As I was changing over to synthetic oil,I pointed out that it appeared that change intervals seemed to be longer when using synthetic,although some of the claims I had seen were hard to believe.Saturn said use of synthetic oil was perfectly acceptable as long as changes were in accordance with the Handbook....ie,maximium of 6 months or when light comes on. I notice that the 2001 Handbook has changed the section on oil changes to specifically say that max interval is 7500 miles,6 months or when light comes on whichever is first.

I usually change around 3.5K miles.I have also done a few tests on the oil change light and with my driving being 90% highway and 10% suburbs,the light comes on around 5500 miles.At that point,the colour of the oil on the dipstick has progressed from straw yellow to medium honey.My dealer says that as much as he appreciates the business,I could go a little longer with synthetic between changes.

I also have sent samples for oil analysis which show virtually no reduction in oil quality,viscosity,etc.so maybe I will start extending the change interval a bit.Maybe until colour gets to dark honey?:-)

I use Mobil 1 Synthetic.

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Old 06-27-2001, 11:14 PM   #3
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Just got a used 99 SL2 - but no owner's handbook. Does this critter have a change oil soon light?

TIA

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Old 06-28-2001, 12:59 AM   #4
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Nope...no oil change light on the '99s.

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Old 06-28-2001, 08:35 AM   #5
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Thanks, hugh. That was exactly the kind of specific information I was looking for. I guess it's safe to assume that the oil change sensors cannot differentiate between regular oil and synthetic oil. Therefore, the light will come on at whatever mileage whether you're using synthetic or regular.

I'm still using regular oil and I use the light to signal the time to change oil since my driving is in "normal" conditions. The light has consistently come on at within a couple of hundred kms of 8,000 (5,000 mi). My highway/city driving ratio varies, but would be about 70/30. The colour range of the oil is pretty much as you described for synthetic.

A while back, someone on this board (I don't have his name) posted a very interesting article, "More than you ever wanted to know about motor oil" (I don't have the URL either). It showed that, based on a detailed statistical analysis, AMSOIL was the top-rated synthetic. AMSOIL is also the only synthetic oil manufacturer that is prepared to endorse an extended drain interval.

I plan to switch to AMSOIL before my warranty expires. It's a little more expensive and a bit harder to obtain than the "name brands," but if you buy it by the case the cost works out to about the same. My Saturn dealer doesn't stock synthetic oil and charges a prohibitive amount to get it, so I'll have to "bring my own" anyway.

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Old 06-28-2001, 10:44 PM   #6
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BobC;
Glad to help.

I have the article you referred to in front of me. I believe I provided the info on the " Synthetic Oil " thread quite some time ago.The info therein was interesting as background but the info on specific oils was a little out of date.I went to the oil companies directly or to their web sites and there were some differences between the info in the article and what companies provided. Both Mobil 1 and Amsoil synthetic 5W30 remained at or near the top of the list in any case.
The differences were as follows;
a) Viscosity Index....Mobil 1 has gone from 165 to 176,while Amsoil went from 168 to 197(I asked Amsoil to confirm this figure on their web site but did not get a reply!)
b) Flash Point....Mobil 1 went from 445 to 455 deg F,while Amsoil went from 480 to 442 deg F.
c) Pour Point.....Mobil 1 remained at -65 deg F while Amsoil went from -76 to -60 deg F(I queried the FP and PP figures but Amsoil did not reply)

A word of caution re Amsoil 5W30 Synthetic. If you look at their web site,you will note that the pics of containers do not have the API 'sunburst' stamp to certify that the contents are certified for use in gasoline engines. The text on web site states that the oil meets all standards and certifications so I asked them why they do not have the required API certification symbol on the bottle.Again.....no answer.When I asked API,I was told that only oils that have been certified can put the symbol on the container.There appears to be something odd here!!The point is that the Saturn Handbook has a warranty warning about using oil that does not have API certification for use in gasoline engines.You may want to have a try getting an explanation from Amsoil.

Last but not least,I would be a little cautious about extreme change interval claims. Some of these claims are based on fleet or taxi use where the engines are at normal operating temperatures for extended periods in contrast to the normal experience of frequent start-up and shut -down cycles that do the damage to oil condition. I think you will also find that you may have to use an Amsoil filter and change it more frequently than the oil in order to qualify for the Amsoil guarantee or warranty,or so I have been told.

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Old 06-29-2001, 02:49 AM   #7
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More than you ever wanted to know about motor oil:

http://rconcepts.com/beard/dragnet/drag/oilinfo.html

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Old 06-29-2001, 07:23 AM   #8
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hugh, thanks for posting that additional info. I have requested an AMSOIL catalogue via their web site, partly to get more info on their product but also to identify their nearest dealer. When I get in touch directly, I will ask those questions you have raised and I'll get back to you with the answers.

With the revised numbers you posted, Mobil 1 (which I had always considered a superior product) may well be #1 in a comparative test. I wouldn't even be thinking of using AMSOIL if Mobil 1 gave any indication (not a guarantee) that their product's drain interval could could be extended beyond that recommended for dino oil.

Heartbeat, thanks for the URL. I had saved it to file but couldn't bring up the URL itself to post. It certainly is an informative article.

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Old 06-29-2001, 09:02 AM   #9
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I worked at Mobil HQ when Mobil 1 came out. The test we touted in ads was a 24/7 run for a year in NYC taxis with a 25K drain interval.

The engines were then torn down and found perfect.

So, you ask, what happened. Here's what. Not one manufacturer would allow the drain intervals in their maintenance schedule to be exceeded while keeping warranty in effect. Their reason was that the taxis ran all day burning off contamination - not typical of most customer usage.

To avoid getting in the middle of customer/mfr disputes, Mobil could not advocate extended drain intervals.

If your car's out of warranty, it's your choice. If in warranty, you won't be able to get the benefit of extended change intervals. Even without that, Mobil 1's a great oil. However, changing it frequently will cost you.

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Old 06-29-2001, 11:06 AM   #10
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Thank you, BobL, for sharing your personal experience as a Mobil Oil employee. That was useful information. Given the circumstances of the test, it is clearly understandable why not one manufacturer would allow the drain intervals in their maintenance schedule to be exceeded while keeping their warranty in effect.

Nor would I expect Mobil to advocate extended drain intervals.
As you say, "If your car's out of warranty, it's your choice. If in warranty, you won't be able to get the benefit of extended change intervals." I understand that. Also, I have no doubt that Mobil 1 is a great oil. But, as you say, it's also true that changing it frequently will cost you.

If I decide to use synthetic oil it will no doubt boil down to a choice between Mobil 1 and AMSOIL. I wasn't looking for a guarantee from Mobil, only an "indication" that an extended drain interval is feasible.

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Old 06-30-2001, 07:37 AM   #11
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not quite my personal experience but i used to do computer work for a guy that built race cars. He said that untill he used mobil 1 synthetic he'd normally need a new motor every race or two, but after switching he stopped losing motors (granted not completly but much less frequently) i run mobil 1 synthetic in my saturn... cost about 24-26 for a case of six, then the oil change itself costs about 12.... altogether a little less then $30 and i figure for the 2 or so months to reach 3k it's not too bad a price to pay... only 5 over what the dealership charges for natural oil... i've also switched over to mobil one synthetic trans fluid and notice that it stiffens up a little easier than the stock fluid did... not sure why, but that it will also loosen up quicker too.. I'm talking about how the shifter stiffens up after spinning the wheels for a launch, or dropping it into 3rd doing 65-70..


Bill

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Old 07-01-2001, 06:38 PM   #12
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My light always comes on after about 2,500 kilometers. It makes no difference what so ever with the type of driving I am doing. Has Saturn ever had a TSB on the light?

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Old 07-01-2001, 11:45 PM   #13
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Silverplum;
I believe it was TSB 00-T-26 that covered the fix in the PCM program to correct the erratic figures.

After the fix,my light comes on around 8 to 9K kilometres based on 90 % highway driving.However,I treat it as a gimmick and change oil based on mileage in any case.

I guess it would be handy if someday I have a really extended "Senior's Moment" and forget to do the change.

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Old 07-02-2001, 07:02 AM   #14
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silverplum:
As I recall the TSB hugh mentioned applied only to the earlier model L-Series, which both hugh and I have. Since I can recall your postings here from my own "early days," I assume yours is also an early model. Even if you use the oddometer as a signal to change engine oil, I recommend that you bring your car in for the TSB. Takes only a few minutes.

If BobL is "listening," perhaps he has more specific technical info.

BobC

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Old 07-02-2001, 08:54 AM   #15
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I'm out here today.

My "LS" (12/99 build date) would flash the light at under 2,000 miles.

Dealer did the TSB which involved downloading a fix for the PCM and zapping it (mainframe computer term) with the fix.

Light has not come on again. However, I change at 3K mileage intervals because of almost 100% city stop-and-go driving.

Very quick process. Dealer included it with an oil change service.

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Old 07-02-2001, 10:42 PM   #16
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Thanks for your help. I took delivery of my car in December 99. I thought the dealer may have already fixed this problem. I will have to double check when I go in for my next oil and filter change very shortly.

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Old 07-06-2001, 09:30 PM   #17
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Hi all,

I have been watching this thread for a while now and everyone has me really confused now!
I don't mean this in any insulting manner, but with honest curiosity.
My questions are:

Is the reason to extend oil change intervals economic or to reduce the environmental impact?

Is the reason to use very expensive oils to prolong the life of the engine or just to not have to change oil as often?

Can oil quality after 3000 miles be standardized in a way that one must assume everyone's driving habits and climates are the same and that all engines wear at the same rate?

Shouldn't the oil be tested for each engine / driver combination to determine oil quality remaining at 3000 miles to see where you stand before extending the interval?

I think that these questions alone compel me to change the oil and filter when either the manual says or more often after I have used the engine in a way that could be considered heavy duty operation.

I am sure that the recommended intervals are very conservative and designed to minimize warranty repairs, but on that same note it seems that frequent or rather timely changes reduce the potential for engine component failure. I am sure that Saturn found weaknesses in components during life cycle testing and determined the oil change intervals accordingly.

Just a thought..because I consider oil change intervals as part of the correct operating procedures that were derived by extensive testing by the manufacturer.

Rayman.

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Old 07-07-2001, 12:05 AM   #18
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Glasshoppa... you ask questions for which there are no answers. (From a 70's TV show - sorry)

IMHO:

Q) Is the reason to extend oil change intervals economic or to reduce the environmental impact?

A) It depends on the individual's opinion. Extended oil intervals can reduce environmental impact, but the economics aren't quite so clear. If extending the OC intervals causes premature wear or other engine damage, then that wasn't a good economic move. The problem here is that nobody wants to tell you how long that extended interval can be - and that's because nobody really knows.

Q) Is the reason to use very expensive oils to prolong the life of the engine or just to not have to change oil as often?

A) If you mean expensive as in synthetic oils vs. normal oil, purists will tell you synthetic is better. But under a normal oil change interval, under most conditions, most people would probably say the difference is very small. In theory, a synthetic oil should allow a longer OC interval - but neither the auto manufacturers nor the oil manufacturers will guarantee you won't have problems with an extended interval.

Q) Shouldn't the oil be tested for each engine / driver combination to determine oil quality remaining at 3000 miles to see where you stand before extending the interval?

A) Yes, that can be done. You can have the oil sampled and analyzed. I assume the viscosity, additive package and cleanliness can all be tested and measured, but I don't know where and how practical this is. There are places where the oil is analyzed for content of certain metals which can indicate the wear of an engine. BTW - there are other factors besides driver and car - ambient temperature, duty cycle characteristics e.g city vs. country driving, short trips vs. long trips also impact the life of the oil.

Some comments - to summarize, it is very difficult to quantify the optimum oil change interval for your situation. It's just easier to use the manufacturer's severe service interval. It's also the safe thing to do while while car is under warranty.

I myself change mine every 2500 miles with conventional oil. I do some driving on gravel roads, my driving is at highway speed, the length of a typical trip is 32 miles and the weather is somewhat extreme here in MN. Now, I probably could switch to a synthetic and stretch the interval to 5000 miles, perhaps even 7500 miles.

If I do move to an extended interval - it won't be to save money or the minimize environmental impacts - it would probably be to eliminate a oil change when it is 30 below!

I did switch to synthetic in my garden tractor's ait-cooled engine and hydrostatic transaxle. I expect better starting this winter and less oil breakdown this summer.

As usual - your mileage may vary...

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Old 07-07-2001, 02:04 AM   #19
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Rayman;
I can only speak for myself here.I currently own a 2000 LS2 which has been a great car(allowing for a number of minor quality control items!).I have been driving cars for more years than I care to tell. I do not abuse my engines and have always changed oil at approx 3000+ miles and can honestly say that I have never had to replace anything that was not part of the regular maintenance schedule pertaining to the engine and have never had an engine breakdown.

As far as your 1st question goes,I don't believe in significantly ignoring the manufacturers change intervals and anytime I stretch the interval past 3500 or so,it's more a matter of convenience than any economic or environmental consideration.

In answer to your 2nd question,I use Mobil1 Synthetic to ensure the engine is properly lubricated and kept clean internally under all possible extremes of operation and temperature(I have to deal with -40 deg F in winter frequently). The fact that it maintains it's quality,viscosity,etc longer than dino and allows a cushion for slipping on oil changes now and then is secondary.

The answer to your 3rd question is very difficult as there are so many variables involved. In general,I would say that regardless of how you treat an engine or over whatever time period,the greater the abuse,the more the wear.

As far as your last question is concerned,it would certainly be wise to have oil analysis done if intending to extend intervals by any great amount.There are people like Blackstone Labs who do this for you for a modest fee.They report on contaminants present,metals wear, elements present,viscosity remaining,etc plus comments as to whether or not there are any indications of potential problems.By sending in samples for analysis after progressively longer change intervals and seeing what trends are,you could establish your comfort level quite easily if serious about it.

Saturn sets a max interval of 7500 miles,or when 'change oil soon' light comes on,for my car under ideal conditions and 3000 under severe conditions.My driving is 90 % highway and 10 % suburban/country yet the 'change oil soon ' light comes on at around 5500 in the tests I've done. As I said before,I tend to change around 3500 but I have gone as high as 4500 miles on a long trip with a subsequent oil analysis that showed the oil was virtually in the same condition as when it went into the engine which speaks well for Mobil 1 and the V6 engine.

Oil changes are the cheapest insurance for your engine,regardless of what you use. Sticking reasonably close to manufacturers change intervals as adjusted for your personal type of driving is just plain smart.If in doubt,change at 3.

Hope this helps.

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Old 07-07-2001, 07:21 AM   #20
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I think the reason most people use synthetics is because they protect better while in use, rather than the longer changes. That's a secondary benefit since the oil's more expensive.

The owners manuals are suppose to reflect testing on behalf of the auto company, but I suspect it's also stretched a bit to show a car is lower maintenance, showing a lower cost of ownership. For instance, nothing is mentioned in the service schedule for things such as throttle body cleaning and timing chain replacement, even though we all know *now* that these do indeed need attention. I was told by my salesman that the timing chains go 300k miles before needing replacement, but now am enlightened. Most people's driving habits will fall into one of the situations described under "severe service," so it is an owner's judgment call which I believe is done intentionally by the mfgs.

I change the dino oil religiously every 3k, and now have 97k miles. At 90k, I sent a sample to Blackstone ($18.50) and got a glowing report. Best wearing 1.9 they'd seen all year, and they said the oil could've gone longer before changing. Well, for $12, I'll keep changing it prematurely, if it means the engine will keep getting such good wear. Plus, if I ever sell the car to a private party, most expect to see the oil has been changed every 3k. The Blackstone results will confirm it.

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