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Old 06-09-2009, 12:34 PM   #21
Kooler King
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

[QUOTE=Robor007;1463305]

Kooler King - Please explain to me how an Aura - priced near $7K MSRP higher - sells for the same or below an Astra. We're not talking a deal on a demo or some special circumstance. I'm talking MSRP vs. MSRP. Saturn's own site says there's a $6900 difference. A $2K rebate doesn't bridge that gap. QUOTE]

I couldn't comment on the price of a 2009 Aura vs. a leftover 2008 Astra. However, before they raised the price of the 2009s (and probably have since lowered the price of the 2008 Astras), in the summer of 2008, by the time you added the automatic transmission, and several option packages to the Astra to make it "equivalent" to a base model Aura XE, there was not that much gap in sticker price between the two vehicles. Additionally, the GMS discount % on an Aura is larger than on the Astra, throw in a $2000 rebate on an Aura XE with $0 available for the Astra, then the Astra makes no economic sense.

Sure, if you went with an Astra with 5-speed tranny and no options whatsoever, then it would be cheaper than the Aura. At that point, if that was my budget limit, then it wouldn't be spent on an Astra ... plently of better cars for the money out there.

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Old 06-09-2009, 03:12 PM   #22
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Dizzy Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsky View Post
The Astra isn't affordable, think Nissan Versa or Toyota Yaris
Ok, "think" them, then go and look at all the standard the safety and performance features that you get on an Astra then compare the price of any Astra AFTER discounts. Astra is clearly the winner hands down. Do your homework, you get what you pay for.
I compared all small vehicles in the Astras class and only the Suzuki SX4 came close but with a bigger price.

Astra standard features:

projection headlight beams
ABS with Corner Braking Control
6 standard airbags
4 wheel disc brakes
available enhanced performance suspension, excellent suspension without
more basic horsepower than Yaris
OnStar
heavier vehicle

Also, MSN autos recently posted crash test at 45mph on the Yaris, not good at all.

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Old 06-09-2009, 03:16 PM   #23
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulff3 View Post
I was at my dealer this morning. Mr. Penske has told them the entry level car in the Saturn line-up will start at $13,000 to $14,000. Should see progress towards year end.
I made toast this morning and Roger Penske's face was burnt on one side. Should I sell it on ebay? (jk)

Penske is an excellent businessman, I have faith he will bring Saturn back to excellence.

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Old 06-09-2009, 03:17 PM   #24
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marx404 View Post
Also, MSN autos recently posted crash test at 45mph on the Yaris, not good at all.
Really? What kind of test? Yaris does well in the IIHS offset frontal and side impact tests:

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=589

Astra, by comparison, rates a marginal in the side impact test:

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=650

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Old 06-09-2009, 03:23 PM   #25
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

I'll try to find the videos, it shows these cars, including the Smart becoming airborne in a 45mph frontal crash. The Yaris was no better, neither did the Fit do so well. It was on MSN.

I quickly Googled for "small cars don't fare well" and came up with lots like this:

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com...h-Larger-Cars/


here's the videos:

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...tests/?apage=3

While the Astra did not do well on rear quarter crashes, NCAP rated the car well in all other aspects, the other cars here in the US are just plain unsafe IMO after reading all the above and watching the videos.

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Old 06-09-2009, 04:00 PM   #26
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robor007 View Post
Citation - You mentioned sticker price on the Astra being unaffordable. You can't compare sticker on the Astra vs. discounts on the rest of the lineup. FWIW, the Astra is only a Saturn in badge. Everyone knows it's really an Opel and after test driving every car in the class there is *nothing* that comes close to the way the Astra handles and rides. I agree Saturn needs a small, affordable, economical car. IMO the Astra could have been that car but few knew about it. Heck, the salesmen at Palm Harbor Honda didn't know what an Astra was when I told them I was headed to drive one of them next and they're in the business.

John - I understand MSRP price isn't necessarily indicative of the 'real price'. However, if dealers are cutting prices on the Aura they're likely cutting prices on the Astra as well. Some Astra owners are getting XR's for $13K and $14K. IIRC the Aura gets $500 more back right now. I don't see that making up the difference between the two. Either way, for the same money I'd still rather have an Astra but I prefer smaller cars. FWIW, I don't see an Aura getting the 29 MPG city that I'm getting in my XR3.

davidsky - I drove the Yaris - 3 of them actually. There's a reason it's so cheap - it's an absolute POS. It's very slow, it rides horrible, and speed bumps feel like running over railroad ties. Your $13K Ion is 5 years old. What do you think an Ion would be priced at in 2009/2010?
That's not what I said: Those Astras were stickered when they came out at 18-20,000. And there were no discounts on them. They are now discounted to 14,900 and the Aura to 16,900. The Aura is a better deal. I think you missed my entire point.

You're the one that claimed Saturn was not "affordable" any longer. And in comparison to what Saturn was known for, the Astra did not come off as "affordable" to people who were expecting an "affordable" small car. Say what you will about it: the public spoke and said: we're not paying that kind of money for a Saturn. Make all the excuses for it you want: no advertising, poor launch, over optioned models sending the price over the top : people aren't paying that price for the Astra. And only when Saturn/GM dropped the price did they start to move. Which suggests they were poorly priced in the first place. Which also suggests poor product planning, launch and exposure.

And BTW: $14,800 was the sticker on my ION. So I am making the proper comparison. I was comparing sticker to sticker.

You're arguing with your own conclusion. Make up your mind.

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Old 06-09-2009, 07:41 PM   #27
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

Quote:
davidsky - I drove the Yaris - 3 of them actually.
You drove a Yaris (3?) you haven't owned one, there's a difference.
Quote:
Your $13K Ion is 5 years old. What do you think an Ion would be priced at in 2009/2010?
4% inflation would put it at around $15600, about the same price as a base Focus, still $1000-$1500 less than the Astra
Even that is too much, I'd go with the Nissan Versa for under $14500

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Old 06-09-2009, 07:49 PM   #28
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marx404 View Post
Astra standard features:

projection headlight beams
ABS with Corner Braking Control
6 standard airbags
4 wheel disc brakes
available enhanced performance suspension, excellent suspension without
more basic horsepower than Yaris
OnStar
Only OnStar really means anything, the rest are either meaningless or available on many cars. OnStar would lean me towards GM more than anything but I could just get a Cobalt.

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Old 06-09-2009, 08:01 PM   #29
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marx404 View Post
I'll try to find the videos, it shows these cars, including the Smart becoming airborne in a 45mph frontal crash. The Yaris was no better, neither did the Fit do so well. It was on MSN.

It's rare for 2 cars to hit each other going 45MPH, most people would slam on the brakes. You would do a little better in a compact like the Astra against a midsize sedan but probably not much. If the only thing you worry about while driving is how you're going to fare in a high speed head on collision than you really should be driving a new model full size SUV, CUV or truck.
An Outlook would probably do the Astra what the Camry did to the Yaris.

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Old 06-09-2009, 08:35 PM   #30
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marx404 View Post
I'll try to find the videos, it shows these cars, including the Smart becoming airborne in a 45mph frontal crash. The Yaris was no better, neither did the Fit do so well. It was on MSN. ...
Maybe that's a safety feature ... the small car flies up and out of the way after impact to avoid further damage from being crushed??

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Old 06-09-2009, 09:04 PM   #31
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robor007 View Post
John - I understand MSRP price isn't necessarily indicative of the 'real price'. However, if dealers are cutting prices on the Aura they're likely cutting prices on the Astra as well. Some Astra owners are getting XR's for $13K and $14K. IIRC the Aura gets $500 more back right now. I don't see that making up the difference between the two. Either way, for the same money I'd still rather have an Astra but I prefer smaller cars. FWIW, I don't see an Aura getting the 29 MPG city that I'm getting in my XR3.
I have no problem with your preference for a small car and have always owned at least one smaller car myself in addition to whatever else existed in my family. Earlier this year we weighed the cost and features of an 08 Astra, 09 Aura and 09 VUE and chose the VUE to replace an older VUE. At the time we purchased, both my wife and I believed the Aura and VUE were better deals and we opted for the VUE largely based on her preference because it is her everyday car. At the time the market price of both the better featured Aura and VUE were being discounted far more than the Astra but perhaps the incentives are more even now as percentages of MSRP. The smaller car in our household is my 06 ION 3 with the 2.4 L Ecotec and sport suspension package. I like that car extremely well and intend to keep it for some time longer. If something would happen to it I would consider and test drive an Astra, but I would also strongly consider replacing my ION with a similarly equipped Cobalt. IMO smaller cars with some extra power do have their place in this world.

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Old 06-09-2009, 10:18 PM   #32
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsky View Post
You drove a Yaris (3?) you haven't owned one, there's a difference.


4% inflation would put it at around $15600, about the same price as a base Focus, still $1000-$1500 less than the Astra
Even that is too much, I'd go with the Nissan Versa for under $14500
Using the inflation calculator here http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm a $13k car in 2005 would be priced around $14,200 in 2009 dollars.

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Old 06-09-2009, 11:04 PM   #33
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VTHokie00SL2 View Post
Really? What kind of test? Yaris does well in the IIHS offset frontal and side impact tests:

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=589

Astra, by comparison, rates a marginal in the side impact test:

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=650
Ok, well then obviously "somebody" posted a reply without even watching the videos?
The crash videos speak for themselves. I already mentioned that the Astra failed in th e REAR quarter panel side crash, but it yet has failed like the sub-compacts I listed previously. Again, the video speaks volumes.

Keep in mind that the ION was rated unsafe in a side crash as well. I have met many a person who have survived a side and front impact in a ION and come out well. SO much for testing in some cases. The video speaks for itself AFAIK and convinced me that ALL small cars are not safe when pitted against heavier cars, but the Astra was among the safest of the bunch, with much more standard equipment.

davidsky, perhaps the safety things I listed aren't important to you, to many people they are. And my point was comparing the cars listed in this post that are somewhat in the class and price of the Astra. The cobalt (not the SS) is simply not. Do your homework and you will see. Only the Astra is loaded with so many standard features and the price now is much less than yesterday that you are comparing it with.

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Old 06-10-2009, 01:06 AM   #34
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marx404 View Post
Ok, well then obviously "somebody" posted a reply without even watching the videos?
What are you talking about?

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Old 06-10-2009, 11:31 AM   #35
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

[QUOTE=Kooler King;1463708]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robor007 View Post
I couldn't comment on the price of a 2009 Aura vs. a leftover 2008 Astra. However, before they raised the price of the 2009s (and probably have since lowered the price of the 2008 Astras), in the summer of 2008, by the time you added the automatic transmission, and several option packages to the Astra to make it "equivalent" to a base model Aura XE, there was not that much gap in sticker price between the two vehicles. Additionally, the GMS discount % on an Aura is larger than on the Astra, throw in a $2000 rebate on an Aura XE with $0 available for the Astra, then the Astra makes no economic sense.

Sure, if you went with an Astra with 5-speed tranny and no options whatsoever, then it would be cheaper than the Aura. At that point, if that was my budget limit, then it wouldn't be spent on an Astra ... plently of better cars for the money out there.
AFAIK the Astra hasn't gone down in price.

When I purchased dealers were offering rebates on all of the Saturn models.

You're comparing a loaded Astra XR to a base Aura XE.

Better cars for the money? Name one with the same features and price.

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Old 06-10-2009, 11:34 AM   #36
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation84 View Post
That's not what I said: Those Astras were stickered when they came out at 18-20,000. And there were no discounts on them. They are now discounted to 14,900 and the Aura to 16,900. The Aura is a better deal. I think you missed my entire point.

You're the one that claimed Saturn was not "affordable" any longer. And in comparison to what Saturn was known for, the Astra did not come off as "affordable" to people who were expecting an "affordable" small car. Say what you will about it: the public spoke and said: we're not paying that kind of money for a Saturn. Make all the excuses for it you want: no advertising, poor launch, over optioned models sending the price over the top : people aren't paying that price for the Astra. And only when Saturn/GM dropped the price did they start to move. Which suggests they were poorly priced in the first place. Which also suggests poor product planning, launch and exposure.

And BTW: $14,800 was the sticker on my ION. So I am making the proper comparison. I was comparing sticker to sticker.

You're arguing with your own conclusion. Make up your mind.
Dealers started discounting models when the economy tanked.

I'll be at the dealership soon - I'll price the Aura's and let you know what they're really stickered at.

Are you comparing a 4-5 year old car to a sticker price today?

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Old 06-10-2009, 11:45 AM   #37
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsky View Post
You drove a Yaris (3?) you haven't owned one, there's a difference.

4% inflation would put it at around $15600, about the same price as a base Focus, still $1000-$1500 less than the Astra
Even that is too much, I'd go with the Nissan Versa for under $14500
Uh, I think you missed the point. I don't own a Yaris because I drove them. They're small, slow, and ride like crap. I don't need to own one to know that.

A base Focus doesn't compare in any way with a base Astra.

The Versa? LOL. I drove one just out of curiosity. Friggin things look like mini mini-vans, especially with those tiny rims. Two words: Clown car In that class (Fit, Matrix, Versa, Vibe, etc) there's only 1 decent car and that is the Mazda3.

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Old 06-10-2009, 11:51 AM   #38
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John10 View Post
I have no problem with your preference for a small car and have always owned at least one smaller car myself in addition to whatever else existed in my family. Earlier this year we weighed the cost and features of an 08 Astra, 09 Aura and 09 VUE and chose the VUE to replace an older VUE. At the time we purchased, both my wife and I believed the Aura and VUE were better deals and we opted for the VUE largely based on her preference because it is her everyday car. At the time the market price of both the better featured Aura and VUE were being discounted far more than the Astra but perhaps the incentives are more even now as percentages of MSRP. The smaller car in our household is my 06 ION 3 with the 2.4 L Ecotec and sport suspension package. I like that car extremely well and intend to keep it for some time longer. If something would happen to it I would consider and test drive an Astra, but I would also strongly consider replacing my ION with a similarly equipped Cobalt. IMO smaller cars with some extra power do have their place in this world.
Seems like a lot of current Astra owners considered the Cobalt. IIRC one of them was even selling his Astra to get a Cobalt SS. I agree the extra power is nice but right now my Astra has over 31mpg on this tankful and that's city driving. I miss the torque of my GTI but I don't miss the 21-22 mpg it got. Plus, not having an abundance of power keeps the insurance low.

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Old 06-10-2009, 11:55 AM   #39
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by page2171 View Post
Using the inflation calculator here http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm a $13k car in 2005 would be priced around $14,200 in 2009 dollars.
While comparing price I'd also like to compare features. My Astra XR has a load of features that weren't offered on other cars in the class. The biggest thing for me was leather - something offered by zero of the competitors in the same price range. The only one I found in the same class was the Mazda 3 Grand Touring and it's significantly more money. I know this because my wife owns a 2008.

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Old 06-10-2009, 12:03 PM   #40
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Default Re: Is the 'new' Saturn affordable? In a word, no.

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Originally Posted by Kooler King View Post
Maybe that's a safety feature ... the small car flies up and out of the way after impact to avoid further damage from being crushed??
Taps sarcasm meter...

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2008 Astra XR3 door 5sp - Silver Sand with premium trim, 18" rims, and advanced audio. (new owner as of 12/15)

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

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