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Old 05-21-2022, 08:20 PM   #1
d0ugparker
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2001 SL1
Default 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

I read through this post, about Saturns approaching stop lights and stalling:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=152520
It seems to summarize a lot of my story now, even though it wasn't me, and it was written twelve years ago. Everything changes, but nothing changes.
; - )

Then I read this post about a Saturn stalling issue with this possible PassLock cause:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=124319
https://moduleexperts.com/gm-securit...arn-procedure/
My car is a basic 2001 Saturn SL1 DOHC (automatic) with 190,000 miles on it. It's the simple key, and it was recut by a locksmith with the correct code to accurately cut the key like brand new, so there is no wear on the edges of the key.

Yesterday it stopped while slowing for a light. It sat for a few hours, it started, and I was able to get 90% of the way home before it stalled again while slowing down for another light. It had been able to run for about five to ten minutes. This afternoon, having pushed it home last night, it was able to start again in front of the house.

Cranking just following its stalling offers an interesting clue-let, maybe. At the *very* end of the unsuccessful crankings, as I let go of the key to stop cranking, I swear it *ju-u-u-st* starts to possibly, *maybe* think about playing nicely and start, but doesn't.

I've started getting warning chimes as I'm leaving the vehicle, and it has to do with the ignition switch position not being in its fully off position. I either jiggle it by hand, or I put the key in and jiggle it, and somewhere I feel a spring switch engage, I can remove the key, and there's no more tone anymore. I mention this because of the PassKey issue noted above. I remember someone else mention that his mother-in-law was having difficulty removing the key from the ignition switch, which I've also experienced since the warning chimes started. I wonder if the slight difficulty in removing the key from the ignition is suddenly a smoking gun, but... I don't know enough to know.

As best as I can remember, lots of the usual parts have been replaced:
  • Intake manifold gasket
  • Engine coolant temp sensor (the good one) ECTS
  • Thermostat (the good one)
  • Crankshaft position sensor CPS
  • Plugs
  • Throttle position sensor TPS
  • Fuel pump
  • Radiator

Oil is okay. It loves consuming oil, but that not news to anyone. I had a tech recently replace the AC compressor. Coolant level is at its low, okay level. Plug wires have not been replaced.

The EGR has been removed once in the past for cleaning. The engine was run to blast some carbon. I did mine for a about ten seconds. I read here where others have run theirs with the EGR pulled for a minute. Maybe I should have let it run for sixty. I even did the *two coins* gasket for a period of time.

Weeks ago on about a half dozen, random occasions it was hesitating and jerking when I gave it light acceleration, but not all accelerations. I saw the dashboard *check engine* light would temporarily glow during these hesitation-jerking periods, but no code was ever saved into memory when I checked it—that seemed odd. Certainly it should register something. Ten minutes ago I rechecked the OBDII memory for saved or stored codes and there was nothing. This hesitation jerking reminds me of EGR symptoms others have said they've had.

Can the OBDII sensor and app be running and capturing data while those hesitation-jerking periods are happening? I never know when they're going to happen, but if I run my app while driving and I can get the data I need, it will have been worth the effort. Of course I wouldn't allow my self to be distracted by the app: I'd keep focused on my driving.

I was considering it to be an intermittent CPS crankcase position sensor, it possibly still could be an intermittent CPS, but I'm not sure.

I'm thinking three possibilities:
  1. PassLock
  2. CPS
  3. EGR

What I'm hoping for is to be able to explain enough of the symptoms here to get some ideas on what tests I can do to confirm the cause instead of throwing money at parts and trying to guess.

I've learned a lot from you guys by listening and doing the hard work in the past. I don't expect this time to be any different. I don't expect it to be much fun while I'm doing it, but afterwards, when it's working again, I always remember how quickly I end up feeling like the king of the universe.

Regards.
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Old 05-21-2022, 10:01 PM   #2
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

1-Consider a well worn ignition switch as a possibility since the main function of it is to route 12v power to the EFI circuitry in ON/RUN mode. An intermittent set of electrical contacts opening when supposedly closed would open the 12v power to the EFI circuits and kill the EFI system. Virtually every analog old school ignition switch simply routes 12v power to wherever its needed to stay powered up until the ignition switch is turned OFF. A minor issue is that all Saturns having Passlock, not Passkey (rfid technology), have an embedded resistor that's read every time the ignition switch is rotated as part of Passlock security checks. The resistor is memorized the first time Passlock is programmed at the factory assembly line process. When an ignition switch is replaced, the bcm must go thru a 30 minute (diy) relearn procedure, marrying the pcm to bcm and reading the ignition switch resistor for calibrating Passlock security. Each Saturn using Passlock has ignition switches with different resistor values. Simply replacing the ignition switch will automatically trigger Passlock security into flashing its indicator and disabling injector operation. The relearn procedure syncs all the Passlock parts to restore functional security.

The ragged feel of the ignition switch key detector may be hinting of a worn out ignition switch.

2-It may help to measure fuel pressure even with a replacement pump since no one guarantees new pumps forever. My guess is fuel pressure isn't dropping when the engine dies but guessing can be costly when its easier to monitor pressures when the engine randomly dies to rule out a pump problem.
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Old 05-25-2022, 08:09 PM   #3
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2001 SL1
Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

I started the car, drove around the neighborhood for 8 minutes, pulled over and shut the car off. Checked for fuel pressure, which was there. Checked my OBDII sensor connector under the dash and connected it by Bluetooth to my cell phone, tried starting the car and it wouldn't start.

I'm sure I have the sequence down wrong, but I vaguely remember the yellow SECURITY idiot light on the dashboard at one point while the I was having difficulty getting the key removed from the keyway.

(Great, I'm thinking, I hope this points to the Passlock security shutdown issue being the cause. And no, I don't know how to prove that.)

I sat and waited for 20 minutes and it started up. I drove home, around two corners, parked it, left it running, and two minutes later it stopped again. Is that another clue? I hope so.

1. On the ignition key issue, I found I can pull the key out when in the START or RUN position. If that's further indicating the likelihood that this work keyway is going to be triggering a SECURITY shutdown, I'd like to hear more. If misalignment from the keyway... what do they call them... tumbler pins is causing the magnet to move away from the Passlock sensor and making the car shut down—always when I'm not moving, mind you—I just want to do the work to conclusively identify the cause then fix it.

I doubt keyway cylinders can be bought new, so it means replacing the old, warn pins with new ones. Hopefully a locksmith has that ability.

Is it the alignment with the keyway and the Passlock sensor (I don't even know what the Passlock sensor looks like, or where it is) that's changing during the drive and that's what's telling the Engine Control Module to shut down?

2. The fuel pressure was strong enough to spray all over my hand, darn it!

Onward.

Thanks.
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Old 05-25-2022, 11:56 PM   #4
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

Although this doesn't sound like a fuel-pressure problem, I gotta say... checking FP without using a gauge is of little value.
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Old 05-28-2022, 02:56 AM   #5
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2001 SL1
Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

I decided to bypass Passlock, following instructions on this site and Google searches.

I pulled the yellow wire from the Passlock connector, leaving the black wire and white wires in place. I put a 5-something K ohm resistor from the black wire end to the yellow wire end, did the thirty minute relearn:
  1. turn on,
  2. blink for 10 minutes,
  3. stop blinking,
  4. shut off for five to ten seconds,
  5. turn on,
rinse and repeat until the SERVICE and SECURITY lights went out. At this point I'm thinking I have my car back.

So I started the car, drove around the neighborhood for a shakedown test, but it stalled eight or so minutes into the drive. Fortunately I was close enough to home I was able to coast to the front of my house.

Does the resistor value need to be a particular value? Mine isn't matching the list of acceptable ohm values and that's what's got it thinking I'm stealing the car? I think I remember reading that there were limited number of unique values expected and allowed.

I'm researching "bypass Passlock still stalling." I haven't found anything yet.
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Old 05-28-2022, 03:33 PM   #6
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

Answered my own question.

The reason GM required calling in and giving the VIN was to look up the VIN in the list below to match the existing Passlock resistance value to its intended value.

The following Ohm Value should be K-Ohm. 0.402 should be 0.402 K-Ohms. I've already contacted the site owner.




This list in the following YouTube video shows the acceptable range of each value.

https://youtu.be/neW5EfANNlA?t=238

My 5.something ohm value resistor isn't working because it's not in one of the acceptable ranges. *sigh*
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Old 05-28-2022, 05:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

Shutting off when hot can be the crank position sensor. Should measure 900 ohms.
My car would stall when I'd hit the brakes back when I had tungsten lamps due to a corroded battery cable connection to the engine fuse block. Cleaning the connection solved the issue.

Do you ever oil your ignition lock? I oil mine twice a year. 380,000 miles. Squirt of WD-40 to clean dirt. Then a few drops of engine oil.

My car would randomly not start (but not stall) when the receptacle for one of the 30 amp fuses became loose.
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Old 05-28-2022, 08:15 PM   #8
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

d0ugparker, some questions need answers. In normal operation of everyday use, the Passlock security indicator light has four modes to indicate whether or not it's disabling the engine; on, off, blinking and flashing. Flashing is the only visual indication that Passlock is actively disabling engine running by disabling injector operation. ON and off are two modes not interfering with engine running. Blinking indicates Passlock is armed and ready to disable injectors if necessary.

1) At anytime when the engine randomly shuts off, do you see Passlock security flashing? If no then it's not Passlock causing random engine shutdown.

2) When substituting the resistor value in the ignition switch with a physical one, this isn't bypassing Passlock at all. The Passlock sensor also monitors the rotation of the ignition switch via Hall effect sensors that can't be bypassed. Resistor substitution simply substitutes the resistor, nothing more. Briefly, Passlock monitors remote keyless UNLOCK command first, ignition switch rotation second, and embedded resistor in ignition switch last. The keyless remote is the first wall of security as it arms/disarms Passlock with door Lock and Unlock commands. If a remote becomes faulty when attempting to Unlock, manually using the ign key to unlock the driver's door and inserting ign key then turning the ign switch to ON/RUN position in less than 10 seconds disarms Passlock. In either scenario, security is turned off. If Passlock was armed (blinking mode) and vehicle broken into or remote was forgotten and ign key was inserted after 10 seconds, the security light would go from blinking to flashing, indicating Passlock detected a theft attempt or incorrect entry by its flashing indicator, disabling injector operation. The ign switch can be turned to START with the starter cranking the engine but the engine will never fire up because injectors are disabled. In this scenario, leaving the ign switch in the ON/RUN position for 10 minutes until the security indicator turns off then cycling the ign switch off resets Passlock. Cycling ign back on should show the security indicator off, indicating Passlock was reset and starting up can proceed without needing the remote. In all these scenarios, the resistor was read each time the ign switch was rotated and matched the memorized value (voltage) in the body control module. Since the resistor was never in question, resistor voltage signal passed this portion of security but a timer is programmed to allow a driver to insert the ign key and turn it in less than 10 secs to disarm Passlock. Not doing so in 10 secs then disables injectors until ign is left ON for 10 minutes until the security indicator turns off. Owner's manuals describes this as the ten minute Passlock security reset.

The info is derived from service manuals, not hearsay or rumors. I have the same Passlock anti theft system in my '03 L300 and have inadvertently triggered Passlock security more than I want to admit to, seeing the security indicator flashing and forced to wait the 10 minute time out before the security indicator turns off, cycle ign switch off then back on to startup and drive away. This occurred in winter temps, waiting in freezing temps for the security indicator to stop flashing. Not fun but it does reset from inadvertent security activation. Injectors are disabled but the starter runs and cranks the engine but the engine won't fire up until the 10 min reset is performed.

Inadvertent activation of Passlock security in my car occurred because of a total lack of info from the aftermarket remote start add-on with a programmed repeat of starting attempts if the first automated start doesn't occur. Three attempts are made to remote start and if starting doesn't occur, shut down remote start and return to Passlock security. I learned that attempting to use my key on the second programmed remote start to manually start was detected by Passlock as a theft attempt and it did what it was designed to do, disable injector operation and flash the security indicator. I figured out stepping on the brake pedal disables the remote start program with Passlock retaining security. Once the brake pedal was pressed and released, I can startup manually. The remote start literature made no mention of this. Remote start works flawlessly but an adjustable timer for how long to use the starter is variable and set to default. The colder than normal temps made starter running sluggish without enough engine rpm for starting. Changing the timer setting let the starter run a bit longer for first start attempts. It's mentioned in service manuals that aftermarket electronics may interfere with GM electronics. My remote works with Passlock for temporarily bypassing Passlock but returns to Passlock security if remote operation fails. The remote is one of many offered for many anti theft systems for many vehicle brands to work seamlessly and not interfere with factory security.
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Old 05-30-2022, 06:19 PM   #9
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Flashing is the only visual indication that Passlock is actively disabling engine running by disabling injector operation. ON and off are two modes not interfering with engine running. Blinking indicates Passlock is armed and ready to disable injectors if necessary.
Blinking is faster than flashing? Flashing is faster than blinking?

I would never have imagined there being a technical difference between flashing and blinking, but since there is, I have some thinnin' to do. Google search doesn't help. I like how my LED bicycle security light is marketed as having a 2.0hz timing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
1) At anytime when the engine randomly shuts off, do you see Passlock security flashing? If no then it's not Passlock causing random engine shutdown.
Hmm... as I recall, no, it was not flashing. So if indeed it was not flashing, it's something else.

Interestingly, td1238 mentioned stalling due to corrosion on the battery cable connection to the fuse block.

During this entire Passlock-related episode, one stall of mine happened when I turned the AC on. I'm thinking sudden, high current draw. Also, I realized that a few months ago I lost all power to the car when the battery terminal needed the tiniest bit of tightening. Now I'm going to disconnect both battery terminals and clean them, then reconnect and proceed. No, I never cleaned them at that time, I only did what I needed to get the car running and get it home, then chose to forget about it.

*sigh*

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
2) Lots and lots of excellent Passlock technical details.
Fortunately, I don't have a remote starter on my vehicle. I need to read those details a few more times to let them sink in. Thank you.

Last edited by d0ugparker; 05-30-2022 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 05-30-2022, 09:33 PM   #10
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

GM Passlock security led;

Blinking - once every 2-3 seconds.

Flashing - once every 1/2 second.

S-series never had factory remote start.

If you suspect battery terminal or cable terminal corrosion, peel back the heavy insulation after removing the short terminal bolt. Peeling back the cable insulator covering the ring terminal may reveal powdery deposits from dried battery acid. A solution of water and baking soda will dissolve and neutralize battery acid. Examine the battery side terminals for damage, leaking wet battery acid.
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Old 05-31-2022, 07:23 PM   #11
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

I have a 2nd confirmation (but only the 1st time I'm 100% positive) that there is no flashing or blinking of the SECURITY light nor the SERVICE light when the stall happens, this time parked in front of my house and not moving.

To be thorough, I had the wiring set back to factory settings—the white, black, and yellow wires were going to their pins on the ignition cylinder. Both SERVICE and SECURITY lights were on at the start, but I believe that was because two days earlier I had gone through a full, Passlock 30-minute relearn. Removing the resistor I had between the yellow and black wires, I think, would have been detected as a NO FUEL or some such event.

5 minutes into letting the car run, it stopped. Both SECURITY and SERVICE lights were still solid.

So, next? I'm currently Googling for Crankcase Position Sensor testing procedures. I'm hoping it's as easy as pop the fuse cover, and touch these two points with a meter. I'll also be cleaning, cutting insulation on, and inspecting battery terminal connections.
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Old 05-31-2022, 08:41 PM   #12
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

Passlock was never the problem............until a resistor was added. This confuses Passlock as a theft attempt. Removing the resistor and restoring wiring should allow the 30 minute Passlock relearn procedure as the ignition switch resistor needs to be relearned. This isn't a crank sensor issue. Perform the three, ten minute relearn procedure with security staying off all three cycles. The three, ten minute ignition cycles resets Passlock with the fourth try learning the resistor value and storing it in BCM memory and allow starting up.

Measuring crank sensor resistance should result in 700-1200 ohms. If you remove it for bench testing, you can replicate three environments; cold, heat and vibration. Freezer or ambient temps, immersed in boiling water for engine heat and rapping it against the edge of a wooden bench for vibration. All three resistance values shouldn't change drastically. If you replaced the crank sensor and didn't throw away the original, test it as suggested.
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Old 05-31-2022, 09:37 PM   #13
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Removing the resistor and restoring wiring should allow the 30 minute Passlock relearn procedure as the ignition switch resistor needs to be relearned.
Should, but it's not going into relearn mode. It's running, it's stalling, but SERVICE and SECURITY lights are both on. When I did the 30-minute Passlock relearn two days ago, the SECURITY light... uh... blinked for 30 then stopped three times, the way I expected it to. Both lights being on isn't right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
This isn't a crank sensor issue.
Dang! I wish *I* could be that confident that I could say that! ( - ;

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Perform the three, ten minute relearn procedure with security staying off all three cycles. The three, ten minute ignition cycles resets Passlock with the fourth try learning the resistor value and storing it in BCM memory and allow starting up.
To be clear, when you say "the fourth" you mean the fourth cycle without me adding any, external resistors, correct? The relearn is three reps, plus a fourth. The value read in the previous three gets stored into memory. (Any Star Wars fans out there saying 'may the fourth be with you?')

I'm confidently guessing the resistance value detecting process is instantaneous, but is intentionally extended out to three, ten minute repetitions to create the artificial delay needed to keep thieves away.
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Old 06-01-2022, 01:03 AM   #14
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

Battery posts had negligible corrosion, and no corrosion that I could see under the insulation. I cleaned them with baking soda and water solution, and the tip of a fine screwdriver to clear the debris from the metal. Negative terminal had more debris, and positive looked like it had more white and greenish powder.

If, when, the relearn works, I'll be back at square one, with basically nothing in the system having changed, and I'll be flirting with stalling out again.

Time to start looking at other clues, other data, other indicators I haven't touched yet. There are other, old threads with my same predicament. I'll be reading through those as well.
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Old 06-01-2022, 10:02 AM   #15
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

d0ugparker, when anyone attempts to bypass GMs Passlock anti theft system, there can be unanticipated circumstances neither GM nor any expert in factory security can explain. You reap what you sow because of altering security circuitry.

Service and security lights remaining on just means two separate issues.

1-Connect a reader (Autozone provides free readings). Retrieve any error codes, decline any suggestions for parts that may or may not fix error codes, search google and/or post them here. The check engine light is mainly about emissions errors.

2-Passlock security ON just means Passlock detected your resistor, became confused, detected other errors and DISABLED itself from interfering with every day starting/driving. The security indicator remaining ON means Passlock isn't the reason for your engine starting and stopping. This isn't hearsay. Direct from service manuals.

Its been suggested to monitor fuel pressure with a pressure gauge because no one can see when fuel pressure drops but a gauge tells all. Having one spare spark plug to see spark or removing coil wires to observe for spark across both coils are aids in testing for spark anytime. Injectors can be presumed to work most of the time.

The crank sensor (generating precise timing signals when the crankshaft rotates) is the electronic heartbeat of the entire EFI system because it allows the pcm to operate fuel pump, ignition for spark and pulse injectors. Dead crank sensor effectively kills the EFI system because the pcm cannot operate without it. No crank sensor output means no pcm operation; no fuel pump, no spark, no injector pulses.

White and greenish powder on and in the battery red side terminal means possible damage already occurred. The red side terminal may have been damaged from overtightening or a longer bolt replacing the short bolt. Damaging side terminals on batteries usually means puncturing or cracking injection molded plastic resulting in battery acid seeping out into the cable terminals, eventually eating away copper wires. You're describing dried battery acid. When water mixed with baking soda is applied to battery acid, bubbling occurs as an immediate reaction.

Last edited by fdryer; 06-01-2022 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 06-02-2022, 08:26 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

Quote:
Originally posted by fdryer
The security indicator remaining ON means Passlock isn't the reason for your engine starting and stopping. This isn't hearsay. Direct from service manuals.
Understood.

I have the crankshaft position sensor out. Observation 1, the bolt was not tight. Strike one.

Desk tests:

• cold freezer for 10 minutes, 776 ohms
• ambient temp, 838 ohms
• hot water, steadily rising 850-1100 ohms, then varying. I did a second test, and multiple readings were reporting off scale, wacked numbers — strike two.
• banging on it kept steady at a high 870

Bullet 3 tells me it's likely the CPS. I have its replacement. It's going into the car now. I'll have strike three or a home run to report shortly.

I'm reviewing previous notes, too.

I have a Konnwei OBD-II and there are no codes registering or saved. It's a unit I can trust, one that has registered codes in the past.

Quote:
Originally posted by fdryer
Service and security lights remaining on just means two separate issues.
It's clear I've been getting bad crankshaft position sensor readings, so there's no healthy heartbeat, systems are shut down, and the car won't start. It would start if the CPS weren't wacked out. The relearn was performed, uh, accurately and correctly, giving proper confirmation feedback to the operator-owner-mechanic. Until the CPS issue is fixed and the heartbeat is established, the system cannot get its proper CPS sensor readings, so all else is futile until then.

That makes sense. Let's see if that's the case.

Re: fuel pressure gauges

Never having used one, I Googled and YouTubed it. Is fuel getting inside the gauge? Is there an air bubble between the gauge and the highest point of the fuel in that part of the tubing?

Thank you.
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Old 06-02-2022, 09:23 PM   #17
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

After replacing the crankshaft position sensor, the car starts.

Both SERVICE and SECURITY lights are on, but now I can at least proceed through to an end, somewhere, and determine what's lighting the SERVICE light. Fuel is next, per everyone's suggestion.

I'm anticipating a failure of the resistance values, too, and my needing to relearn the original resistance values, since I've removed the values that were used in the last relearn a few days ago. That part will be easy.
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Old 06-02-2022, 10:29 PM   #18
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

Good progress! An intermittent crank sensor may be likened to a person having a heart attack - the majority don't know the symptoms while in the midst of an attack and fall down in agony, unable to tell anyone they're having a heart attack. An intermittent crank sensor keeps the engine computer alive until it acts erratically. There's an error code, P0335 Crankshaft Position “A” Circuit Malfunction. The code is set when your car's primary computer, also known as the powertrain control module (PCM) is unable to detect a signal from the crankshaft position sensor. Well, how can it detect a faulty crank sensor if its in the middle of erratic behavior where every signal, coming and going are out of synch? Very few members here mentioned seeing P0335 on their readers. When mine croaked for the same intermittent issue, 'all the lights came on but nobody was home'. I didn't have a reader back then but it would be interesting if my L300 did store it until a restart erased it........ I think a relative's Nissan Sentra may have displayed P0335 - I don't remember. Testing for spark and checking for fuel on plugs was easier to surmise a faulty crank sensor. L300s are very difficult to remove any spark plug for a spark test and smell them for fuel. Not everything works as software designers assume. The irony of triggering P0335 in the midst of an electronic heart attack is..............

According to your detailed notes, an intermittent crank sensor testing for wild variances in resistance in boiling water may be the lynchpin to this mystery. Water boils at 212F. Combustion temps exceed 2000F so the engine block can easily exceed water boiling temps. Combustion chamber temps heat up oil, coolant, and engine block while exhaust tries to expel remaining combustion temperatures. Oil temps are around 250F and pressurized antifreeze can withstand up to 265F before the pressure cap vents.

If the cel remains on and you're able to decode stored errors, there may be a combination of genuine and false errors so be leery of strange codes until the engine runs without hiccupping. If hiccupping goes away then all or most error codes may disappear with any remaining as real errors. Post them if you can.
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Old 06-02-2022, 11:36 PM   #19
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

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Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Good progress!

According to your detailed notes, an intermittent crank sensor testing for wild variances in resistance in boiling water may be the lynchpin to this mystery.
I can't thank you enough for your help. Well, I can. I think I just did.

I just ran the car for twelve minutes without a stall, and drove it around for a few more minutes. I still have SERVICE and SECURITY lights, and I'm not ready to go on any long distance trips yet, but I'm getting there.

Some of those hot water readings showed multiple opens. No wonder it croaked.

Two related stories. The car would hiccup, and fight, and struggle to accelerate, and hesitate, and go stop go stop on occasion. If this symptom goes away now, I would connect those behaviors to the beginning failure of the CPS.

Secondly, I stopped to think about putting in the last crankshaft position sensor. There's an o-ring that I'll bet the CPS was tightened down to, but the CPS was never inserted down past the o-ring's detent in the plastic. In other words, I'll bet the CPS itself was never seated. That could explain how, when I was removing the bad one, it wasn't wrench tight. This new one was securely tightened down.

As the old unit, sitting in its mounting hole, potentially snugged against its o-ring but not fully seated, became looser and looser over time, the sensor's position would change its position, resulting in wilder, more erratic heartbeat data to the rest of the system. Not good. Time will tell.

Quote:
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If the cel remains on and you're able to decode stored errors, there may be a combination of genuine and false errors so be leery of strange codes until the engine runs without hiccupping. If hiccupping goes away then all or most error codes may disappear with any remaining as real errors. Post them if you can.
Understood. "Cel?" Ahh: Check Engine Light.

Will my FLAPS (Friendly Local Auto Parts Store) scanner pull more codes than I can get from my under the dash, OBD-II Konnwei?

Follow up is often forgotten once a solution is found. For the forum's purpose, completion is a way to say "thank you" to everyone who helped me and anyone else after me who ends up in similar straits.
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Old 06-03-2022, 12:30 AM   #20
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Default Re: 2001 SL1 stalls slowing at a light, restarts again later

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...... Some of those hot water readings showed multiple opens. No wonder it croaked.
.....Will my FLAPS (Friendly Local Auto Parts Store) scanner pull more codes than I can get from my under the dash, OBD-II Konnwei?
Repeated open readings was the indication of an intermittent sensor. I think you found the problem.

Many generic readers will not decode abs errors. This includes C (chassis), U (network) and B (body) codes. Can your Konnwei reader decode these? My low cost VCX NANO decodes everything and displayed history codes of odd errors not affecting engine running. It's the equivalent of GMs Tech II scantool. I've programmed aftermarket remotes with it.
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