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Old 04-20-2009, 08:57 PM   #41
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Default Re: I hope "foreign" doesn't mean Chinese or Indian

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all bids must be in to purchase saturn by 6/1. winning bid announced by 7/1. deal done in august and heavily advertise the new saturn next fall. many changes to the 2011 vue
Is this all out the window if GM declares bankruptcy?

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Old 04-20-2009, 09:16 PM   #42
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Default Re: I hope "foreign" doesn't mean Chinese or Indian

quote.....gm filing bankruptcy would not cause a problem for the spinoff.

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Old 04-20-2009, 09:46 PM   #43
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Default Re: I hope "foreign" doesn't mean Chinese or Indian

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quote.....gm filing bankruptcy would not cause a problem for the spinoff.
I'm really EXCITED now!

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Old 04-20-2009, 09:50 PM   #44
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Default Re: I hope "foreign" doesn't mean Chinese or Indian

Does this mean I can get a Relay Redline made in Bangaldesh?

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Old 04-20-2009, 11:33 PM   #45
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Default Re: I hope "foreign" doesn't mean Chinese or Indian

Saturn was always too good of an idea for GM...I'd like to see them succeed...if for no other reason than to say they outlasted STUPID GM.

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Old 04-21-2009, 09:17 AM   #46
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Default Re: I hope "foreign" doesn't mean Chinese or Indian

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I'm not blaming unions in general. When I said unions have priced the local workers out of the market, I meant the specific unions that represented local workers.

Unions can work successfully with company management. One of the most union averse companies, Walmart, in fact, has stores run by unions for almost 5 years now (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Nov30.html).

The difference between Walmart, its union, and GM, and its union, is that GM/UAW see each other as adversaries running a business while Walmart and its union sees each other as partners running a business.
Walmart doesn't want unions in North America, they even closed a store in my province to avoid having an union after a successful unionization drive (Jonquières). The only union it "tolerates" is the "official" union from China which basically exists to lick the shoes of the company and to prevent the formation of an union that would actually defend the interests of the workers. I suggest you read the entire link you posted, it makes it clear that this particular union is worthless for workers.

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Old 04-21-2009, 03:08 PM   #47
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Default Re: I hope "foreign" doesn't mean Chinese or Indian

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Walmart doesn't want unions in North America, they even closed a store in my province to avoid having an union after a successful unionization drive (Jonquières). The only union it "tolerates" is the "official" union from China which basically exists to lick the shoes of the company and to prevent the formation of an union that would actually defend the interests of the workers. I suggest you read the entire link you posted, it makes it clear that this particular union is worthless for workers.
That's exactly the point I'm making. The Chinese have figured out how to make unions work with management so both work together to contribute to the corporation's success.

In the mean time, in America, unions are butting heads with management to fight for worker rights. This impedes a company's ability to adapt to changes in economy or to size itself to handle upcoming business challenges.

That gives Chinese companies competitive huge advantage over US companies. GM China can build capacity to manufacture 1 million cars a year and when economy slows down, idle factories to match output to demand without nary a complaint from the union. But GM America can't do the same without upsetting works and unions.

In the end, this all goes back to what I'd said before, that unions have priced local works out of the business. China has unions too, but it works with mgmt to run the company.

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Old 04-21-2009, 03:48 PM   #48
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Default Re: I hope "foreign" doesn't mean Chinese or Indian

RIGHT ON!, I love this partnership that Saturn has with Opel - I really hope Saturn will stay with GM or at least if Opel GM's European brand buys Saturn.

If a Chinese or Indian company buys Saturn then say good buy to the evolution of the current line up and hello to this totally new line up.

GM's contribution to Saturn has resulted in this recent line up being the BEST ever! we just need to show GM that selling would be a mistake

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Old 04-21-2009, 06:15 PM   #49
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Default Re: I hope "foreign" doesn't mean Chinese or Indian

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That's exactly the point I'm making. The Chinese have figured out how to make unions work with management so both work together to contribute to the corporation's success.
In the end, this all goes back to what I'd said before, that unions have priced local works out of the business. China has unions too, but it works with mgmt to run the company.
So you are praising China for having weak unions and poor working conditions?
Do you understand why unions were formed?

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Old 04-21-2009, 08:25 PM   #50
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Default Re: I hope "foreign" doesn't mean Chinese or Indian

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Originally Posted by youknowme View Post
Saturn was always too good of an idea for GM...I'd like to see them succeed...if for no other reason than to say they outlasted STUPID GM.
Oh, the irony! Too bad the Japanese or Koreans didn't scoop up the ashes of Studebaker or Tucker or AMC and turn them into the juggernauts Toyota and Hyundai have become today.


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Old 04-22-2009, 03:46 PM   #51
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Default Re: I hope "foreign" doesn't mean Chinese or Indian

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So you are praising China for having weak unions and poor working conditions?
Do you understand why unions were formed?
"Praising"?

Poor working conditions is a relative term. Ask some Chinese migrant worker if he/she prefers to plow the fields back at home or move to a big city working factory jobs. Hundreds of millions of Chinese have already voted with their feet - they moved to the big city to seek factory jobs. And not all factories are unionized.

I understand how unions were formed. I also understand the principles behind communism. The Chinese communists have figured out how to make unions work with management to build the business instead of unions work against the management to claim their entitlement. And that's why there's fear that "hope foreign doesn't mean Chinese or Indian".

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Old 04-22-2009, 09:44 PM   #52
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Default Re: I hope "foreign" doesn't mean Chinese or Indian

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That's exactly the point I'm making. The Chinese have figured out how to make unions work with management so both work together to contribute to the corporation's success.

In the mean time, in America, unions are butting heads with management to fight for worker rights. This impedes a company's ability to adapt to changes in economy or to size itself to handle upcoming business challenges.

That gives Chinese companies competitive huge advantage over US companies. GM China can build capacity to manufacture 1 million cars a year and when economy slows down, idle factories to match output to demand without nary a complaint from the union. But GM America can't do the same without upsetting works and unions.

In the end, this all goes back to what I'd said before, that unions have priced local works out of the business. China has unions too, but it works with mgmt to run the company.
Ridiculous. The Chinese wage advantage is more due to the difference in cost of life than to anything else. If American workers were forced to compete directly and therefore had wages equal to the level of the Chinese, they'd be better off on welfare than working. That's true for all developped countries in trade with under-developped countries. That's without mentionning the horrible workplace security in place in China, unions would save lives there.

I'm actually a proponent of having managers and unions sitting at the same table as partners, which is what they initially did at Saturn, but unions have to butt heads sometimes to protect workers. This saves lives and it helps the economy in the long term, as it places more money into the hands of the workers who therefore can increase consumer demand and therefore allow the economy to grow. Glorifying China's unions is a joke, their unions aren't there work with management, they are there to work FOR management! They are there just to make sure that no worthy union is installed and to disperse worker discontent. What you show by glorifying this is just contempt for the workers.

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Old 04-23-2009, 12:49 PM   #53
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Default Re: I hope "foreign" doesn't mean Chinese or Indian

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Ridiculous. The Chinese wage advantage is more due to the difference in cost of life than to anything else.
Not entirely true.

The Chinese people in Hong Kong & Taiwan enjoy much higher standards of living than the most of the Chinese in mainland China. Also, Chinese in big cities such as Shanghai & Beijing also enjoy standards of living similar to any North American city. If you don't believe me, check out the prices of housing, cars, furniture etc. in those places - it's more expensive than North America. Yet, their average wages remain below that of North Americans.

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Glorifying China's unions is a joke, their unions aren't there work with management, they are there to work FOR management! They are there just to make sure that no worthy union is installed and to disperse worker discontent. What you show by glorifying this is just contempt for the workers.
Can you supply any proof or link to support that their unions work FOR management and not WITH management? If unions work for management, they'd be called management. There's no point for a company to hire 2 sets of independent managers to manage the same group of workers. It just doesn't make economic sense.

I understand your disbelief and denial that any union can work with management. This is not a concept that's widely understood in North America. Much less adopted and practiced. And, to go back to my original point, that's why they have an advantage over North Americans.

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Old 04-23-2009, 06:18 PM   #54
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Default Re: I hope "foreign" doesn't mean Chinese or Indian

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The Chinese people in Hong Kong & Taiwan enjoy much higher standards of living than the most of the Chinese in mainland China. Also, Chinese in big cities such as Shanghai & Beijing also enjoy standards of living similar to any North American city. If you don't believe me, check out the prices of housing, cars, furniture etc. in those places - it's more expensive than North America. Yet, their average wages remain below that of North Americans.
Hong Kong is still a special case and Taiwan is basically another country, both are not relevant to this discussion as they still clash with the rest of China (where most of the products are made). If you stick to the small rich ghettoes of the country, the cost of living may be similar but only if you compare with an American suburb, when the proper comparison would be with downtown New York where the cost of living is much higher than in the rest of America. Here's a website that talks about the cost of living in Shanghai, they mention that the average Shanghai worker gets the equivalent of 180 USD a month in salary, it's clear from this that the cost of living is lower even in the priciest parts of China, because there are few places in America where someone can survive on a monthly salary of 180 dollars per month (if you worked full time, that would be a wage of about 1$ per hour, and that's one of the richest parts of China).

The cost of living in China is still ridiculously low compared to that in developped countries, and this makes any attempt to compete with Chinese workers on wages a stupid thing, equivalent wages in America would be starving wages.

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Can you supply any proof or link to support that their unions work FOR management and not WITH management? If unions work for management, they'd be called management. There's no point for a company to hire 2 sets of independent managers to manage the same group of workers. It just doesn't make economic sense.

I understand your disbelief and denial that any union can work with management. This is not a concept that's widely understood in North America. Much less adopted and practiced. And, to go back to my original point, that's why they have an advantage over North Americans.
Did you even read the article you posted? It echoes what everyone says, the unions in China do nothing, they serve only to insure the government's power on workers and to dissipate any real movement for workers' rights. If you want an example of unions working with management instead of for management, look at Sweden or even in some cases in North America. For example, in Québec our most important trade union has established an investment fund that it uses to support our local economy and to support companies that have worker-friendly attitudes, it's called the Fonds de Solidarité FTQ if you want more info on it. Look also at the former Saturn union in Spring Hill, that's one of the best examples of unions being considered a partner and not an enemy, and them working with management.

As to your accusation that I'm in disbelief and denial, it's a ridiculous attack when I previously commented positively on the former union agreement in Spring Hill and when I said that I wanted unions to be treated as partners working with management in mutual respect.

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Old 04-24-2009, 12:03 AM   #55
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"Praising"?

Poor working conditions is a relative term. Ask some Chinese migrant worker if he/she prefers to plow the fields back at home or move to a big city working factory jobs. Hundreds of millions of Chinese have already voted with their feet - they moved to the big city to seek factory jobs. And not all factories are unionized.

I understand how unions were formed. I also understand the principles behind communism. The Chinese communists have figured out how to make unions work with management to build the business instead of unions work against the management to claim their entitlement. And that's why there's fear that "hope foreign doesn't mean Chinese or Indian".
It's early yet, this might take decades. The Chinese won't work for "peanuts" for too long.

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Old 04-24-2009, 12:05 AM   #56
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Oh, the irony! Too bad the Japanese or Koreans didn't scoop up the ashes of Studebaker or Tucker or AMC and turn them into the juggernauts Toyota and Hyundai have become today.

It would be interesting to know if Studebaker would have survived if they had received a "bailout".

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Old 04-24-2009, 12:06 PM   #57
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Default Re: I hope "foreign" doesn't mean Chinese or Indian

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Here's a website that talks about the cost of living in Shanghai, they mention that the average Shanghai worker gets the equivalent of 180 USD a month in salary, it's clear from this that the cost of living is lower even in the priciest parts of China,
That article is from 2002.

If you've been keeping up with the news, China, on average, has been growing at appx 9% per year. It's even faster in financial centers such has Shanghai. From the same website you quoted from, here's an article from 2003 --> http://home.wangjianshuo.com/archive...n_shanghai.htm

A townhouse for $1 - 2 million in 2003. Combine that with 9% growth per year and it's not unusual to have high-rise condos command RMB $10,000 to $20,000 per square meter these days.

Aside from real estate prices, it's important to point out that cost of living has little to do with typical average wages (that you've quoted) in China. Near big cities, where car manufacturing plants are located, the cost of living is much higher than in rural areas. Auto workers need to live near factories (if not "in" the factories as Chinese factories sometime supply dorms to workers). And they would be subjected to the higher cost of living.

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Did you even read the article you posted? It echoes what everyone says, the unions in China do nothing, they serve only to insure the government's power on workers and to dissipate any real movement for workers' rights. If you want an example of unions working with management instead of for management, look at Sweden or even in some cases in North America. For example, in Québec our most important trade union has established an investment fund that it uses to support our local economy and to support companies that have worker-friendly attitudes, it's called the Fonds de Solidarité FTQ if you want more info on it. Look also at the former Saturn union in Spring Hill, that's one of the best examples of unions being considered a partner and not an enemy, and them working with management.
The Saturn union contract in Spring Hill is no more. It's living proof that such agreement does not work when the union refuses to work with management.

The union in China does nothing as far as North Americans are concerned because they do not organize strikes or fight for worker entitlements the same way North American unions does. That, you are correct.

However, that union does everything Chinese workers want them to do. And that's why there's is one in Walmart. Given how anti-union Walmart is, how do you think that union was able to get into Walmart if the workers didn't support it?

Chinese workers want their unions and they like their unions. But just because Chinese unions don't work the same way as North American unions, it doesn't mean it's not a union or the workers are oppressed. It still is a union for the Chinese workers. And it works with management to ensure the long term survival of the business so the investors, management and works all benefit. That's something the North American unions hasn't figured out as they continue to battle company management.

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As to your accusation that I'm in disbelief and denial, it's a ridiculous attack when I previously commented positively on the former union agreement in Spring Hill and when I said that I wanted unions to be treated as partners working with management in mutual respect.
The "former" union agreement in Spring Hill didn't last. It was an attempt to make unions and management work together. But it failed. What about the current agreement in Spring Hill?

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Old 04-24-2009, 02:47 PM   #58
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Does this mean I can get a Relay Redline made in Bangaldesh?
Yes, but it will no longer be called a Redline. It will now be known as a Red-dot.

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Old 04-24-2009, 05:51 PM   #59
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If you've been keeping up with the news, China, on average, has been growing at appx 9% per year. It's even faster in financial centers such has Shanghai. From the same website you quoted from, here's an article from 2003 --> http://home.wangjianshuo.com/archive...n_shanghai.htm

A townhouse for $1 - 2 million in 2003. Combine that with 9% growth per year and it's not unusual to have high-rise condos command RMB $10,000 to $20,000 per square meter these days.

Aside from real estate prices, it's important to point out that cost of living has little to do with typical average wages (that you've quoted) in China. Near big cities, where car manufacturing plants are located, the cost of living is much higher than in rural areas. Auto workers need to live near factories (if not "in" the factories as Chinese factories sometime supply dorms to workers). And they would be subjected to the higher cost of living.
Again, Shanghai is a big exception in China, it's similar to New York in the US, where the cost of housing is many times that of the average American price and you may even need a 6-figure salary just to be able to live in Downtown New York. The cost of living in China remains massively under that in the Western world. BTW, your idea that the cost of living has no relevance to the average worker salary is just bull...., the average worker can be presumed to be able to live correctly on his average salary. That means that if the average worker in China gains the equivalent of 1 USD per hour, it means that in China you can survive with that wage, something I doubt you could do in the US, just your commute would cost you half your salary, you'd almost be better off unemployed.

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The Saturn union contract in Spring Hill is no more. It's living proof that such agreement does not work when the union refuses to work with management.
The union did work with management, it doesn't exist anymore because of the desire of GM and the UAW to unify their structures and uniformize Spring Hill.

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The union in China does nothing as far as North Americans are concerned because they do not organize strikes or fight for worker entitlements the same way North American unions does. That, you are correct.

However, that union does everything Chinese workers want them to do. And that's why there's is one in Walmart. Given how anti-union Walmart is, how do you think that union was able to get into Walmart if the workers didn't support it?

Chinese workers want their unions and they like their unions. But just because Chinese unions don't work the same way as North American unions, it doesn't mean it's not a union or the workers are oppressed. It still is a union for the Chinese workers. And it works with management to ensure the long term survival of the business so the investors, management and works all benefit. That's something the North American unions hasn't figured out as they continue to battle company management.
If for you working in a safe environment or getting paid overtime is "entitlement" on the part of workers, it showcases pretty much your deplorable mentality towards workers' rights. As to the Chinese unions, no they don't do what the Chinese workers want them to do, it's just that any independent union gets squashed like a bug and the government supports the spread of its sole legal union, which is nearly an arm of the communist party of China. And Walmart didn't accept the union happily there, it accepted it only after the Chinese authorities pressured them (you know, China, the country where most of Walmart's crap is made, that country that holds Walmart by the balls, yes, that China).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4037423.stm

Once again, I do favor a more collaborative approach to work relations, just putting up the Chinese union as a model is completely besides the point, this isn't collaboration, this is submission. Collaboration implies compromises on both sides, not on just one of them.

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Old 04-24-2009, 06:29 PM   #60
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LeJunk... The little car rode well, but wasn't very reliable. Three lugs on each wheel, glued back side glass would fall off the car...
I drove several hundred thousand miles with three lug wheels. Three is the proper number to define a plane in solid geometry.

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