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Old 08-14-2013, 11:47 AM   #1
diablo2070
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Default Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

Hi folks!

I have a 2001 SC2 and it got a rough idle since a few months and it's becoming even rougher in the last weeks, so I decided to look at my top engine mount. Like the richpin video shows, I tried the pen test and it failed. Also, I saw a crack in the rubber, wich must not be good :



So I guess it is time to change that part. Mine seems to be the "Frowny" version, but the bolts are quite long as you can see :




Are they the one for the "good" version of the mount ? Wich mean I would not need to get new screws?

Also, where can I get a new top engine mount for cheap? If possible, from a retailer in Canada since duties and brokerage sometimes kills all the deal.

Thank you!

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Old 08-14-2013, 12:46 PM   #2
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

Diablo, I haven't found a good source for OEM mounts in Canada and if that is the route you want to go then you'd have to go to a GM dealership.

However, if you're okay with an aftermarket solid mount then I've ordered them from AutoPartsWay.ca. They are the solid type and they come with the studs too. You can get the same DEA engine mount (1st design) from RockAuto.com. They ship to Canada and duties and brokerage fees are looked after.

You may want to look at your other mounts and order them at the same time. 2 dogbones and the transmission mounts. The lower dogbone is suspect as it is in a harsher environment than the upper.

...
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Old 08-14-2013, 01:02 PM   #3
diablo2070
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

Quote:
Diablo, I haven't found a good source for OEM mounts in Canada and if that is the route you want to go then you'd have to go to a GM dealership.
Well I have no problem ordering from the US, it's just that sometimes the brokerage + duty fees cost as much or even more than the price of the item itself.

Quote:
However, if you're okay with an aftermarket solid mount then I've ordered them from AutoPartsWay.ca. They are the solid type and they come with the studs too. You can get the same DEA engine mount (1st design) from RockAuto.com.
Wow, that's really cheap compared to what I was expeecting :
http://www.autopartsway.ca/PartList..../pagenum1/tabS
It is as good (or almost) as an OEM ?

Quote:
You may want to look at your other mounts and order them at the same time. 2 dogbones and the transmission mounts. The lower dogbone is suspect as it is in a harsher environment than the upper.
I will begin with the top engine mount as it is clearly look worned out. The other mounts seems to cost a lot more (205$ for the transmission mount). That's not a price I'm ready to pay for such a small issue for that old car with all the mileage there is on it. The problem is not dramatic, but if I can improve with the top engine mount, it's not a big investment

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Old 08-14-2013, 01:35 PM   #4
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

I just replaced the mounts and dogbones on my SL2.

I bought them from RockAuto and it was pretty cheap. I am a new owner and was unaware of problems with "frowny" top mounts. I read this only after purchasing.

In any case, it's been installed and greatly (like 80%) reduced vibration. My top mount was completely torn out.

Good luck!

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Old 08-14-2013, 02:05 PM   #5
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

Quote:
Originally Posted by diablo2070 View Post
Well I have no problem ordering from the US, it's just that sometimes the brokerage + duty fees cost as much or even more than the price of the item itself.:
I've generally gone by the rule if it ships USPS then I buy it and if it doesn't then I scrutinize very carefully and ask questions. I've never had to pay extra for something shipped USPS. I have ordered from Rock Auto and can confirm that they have up front pricing (no surprises). The dogbones are pretty inexpensive from Rock Auto BTW but watch for split shipments which will increase your shipping costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diablo2070 View Post
Wow, that's really cheap compared to what I was expeecting :
http://www.autopartsway.ca/PartList..../pagenum1/tabS
It is as good (or almost) as an OEM ? :
I've installed them in two of my Saturns and I haven't had a problem. It's been a couple years now and about 40,000 km for my SL1 MT. The other is in my Mothers SW2 and no problems there either but she doesn't drive as much.

...
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Old 08-14-2013, 03:06 PM   #6
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

I would not waste my time with a non OEM top engine mount.

The only one I would even attempt to try is a solid 1st design one, do not use a "frownie" if u get it.

Just because it says DEA on the box does not mean you will get a 1st design style, ask me how I know and this was recently

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Old 08-14-2013, 03:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

Quote:
Just because it says DEA on the box does not mean you will get a 1st design style, ask me how I know and this was recently
Oh... I have to be sure about that... Maybe if I contact the seller...

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Old 08-14-2013, 03:59 PM   #8
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

Quote:
Originally Posted by diablo2070 View Post
Oh... I have to be sure about that... Maybe if I contact the seller...
After owning 3 of these and still wasting time on non OEM top mounts.........

I say get a dealer mount, expensive or not, problem solved.

Aftermarket, it may or may not be.

Can try calling, but without knowing its kind of hard to explain over the phone.

Maybe pay a little more and go to local parts stores and go thru their stock to find the "correct" aftermarket style.

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Old 09-10-2013, 10:50 PM   #9
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

Finally I still didn't had time to repair it. I have a question about the "good" vs "bad" design.

Are they basically the same thing, so the weakness only comes from the hole in the rubber part (the "mouth" of the frowny face) ? What if I fill this hole with urethane, so the rubber will not collapse and break ? (on a brand new one, not on the old used one)

No need to bash, I'm just curious, but don't have a lot of experience. I just don't want to spent 300$ on an engine mount for a car that I don't know how long I will keep. If I have to spent that much money on it, it would be the clutch first, since it's getting quite worned out.

Thanks for your advices

Last edited by diablo2070; 09-10-2013 at 10:55 PM..

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Old 09-11-2013, 12:42 AM   #10
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

RockAuto will ship by USPS into Canada as well as most of the OEM parts suppliers. The good mount costs about 50US.

Saturn OEM Parts Source
GM Parts Giant- http://www.gmpartsgiant.com/
GM Parts Direct- http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/
Get Saturn Parts- http://www.trademotion.com/splash/in...?siteid=214643
GMparts4U.com- http://gmparts4u.com/

Top Engine Mount 21012185
long studs 11518885 use these if replacing a frowny mount and there are NO threads showing above the nuts.
Top mount nuts (5) 21006320
Transaxle Mount 21012951

The metal part that is bolted to the timing cover is different thickness depending on the mount and is easy to measure.
Frowny Mount 1.275" ~1 9/32"
Solid Mount 1.475" ~1 15/32"
The good mount is ~3/16 thicker than the frowny mount.


There is more to these mounts than the orientation of the soft axis. The frown mount is not really salvageable.

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Old 09-11-2013, 01:04 AM   #11
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

You may want to check the studs on your mount. The rear stud looks to be backing out unless it is a long stud.

I have filled a TAM (Torque Axis Mount i.e. top mount) with window weld in the past for the drag strip. I filled the mount all around not just the bottom as you suggest so your mileage may vary.

It was okay for track use only but not for the street. It transmitted so much vibration into the cabin and would get worse when the temps dropped. Quarter mile runs were fun but not the ride home.

I pulled it from the car and only keep it around in case I want to go to the drag strip.

The optimum choice is OEM. Aftermarket is okay if you you are in a pinch or don't mind changing the TAM's more frequently.

I am due for another TAM soon and plan on going back to an OEM part.

You can also purchase urethane inserts for the dog bone mounts and press them in.

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Old 09-11-2013, 09:01 AM   #12
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

@OldNuc : Thank you for the info and for these links, I will look at them tonight.

@Jim97sl2 :
Quote:
You can also purchase urethane inserts for the dog bone mounts and press them in.
Well I was thinking about something like this last days :
http://www.elantragtclub.com/id557.html
Like on these pictures, I would keep the rubber so It should be far from being as hard as full urethane.
Not only thinking about the top engine mount but for the others too. Currently, I feel a lot the engine moving before it start accelerating and it is quite annoying and unresponsive in city highway driving (a lot of braking / quick acceleration to change from a slow to a fast line, stuff like this). My friend did that on his 2005 Hyundai Elantra and it makes a difference, without adding too much vibration.

Since I can't stop using my car for 1 week, I though yesterday that I could go in a scrapyard and buy a set of all the mounts I need (which oned are going to make a difference for this?), fill them with urethane and change them when they are ready.

If someone has a drawing of the engine with the mounts that support it, it would be appreciated as I never did that before and I'm not sure exactly how it's placed.

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Old 09-11-2013, 09:08 AM   #13
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

The Saturn engine-transmission mounting system is in no way comparable to the conventional suspension systems. This is apples and oranges and pounding urethane into mounts works for racing but is an unmitigated disaster for the daily driver. The S-Series uses a torque axis mounting system with axle windup restraint.

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Old 09-11-2013, 09:16 AM   #14
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

Oh... ok so I'm better forgetting about this. I never drove a "new" Saturn S series so I have no idea how it should be when new. The 3 Saturn I drove were all over 175 000 kms but is it normal that I feel the engine is moving much ? Maybe just a new stock mounts would help a lot. My top engine mount is clearly broken, so at first I thought it was because of that one but I,m not sure anymore if this one can produce the "engine moving" effect as strong as I have. I will probably change it anyway since it is vibrating as hell in idle. Any advice are welcome. I want to learn.

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Old 09-11-2013, 09:51 AM   #15
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

If you have a smooth even idle then the below is applicable. If your idle is rough then it helps but nothing will fix it.

OEM top mount, trans mount, late 97 or newer torque axis struts and the polly inserts. Engine must have an even smooth idle. That means good even compression. Clean flow balanced injectors. The 3 rubber exhaust mounts should not be stretched when the car is at rest, just supporting the exhaust. These 3 suspension pieces will be what couples the exhaust vibration into the floor pan so the stretchiness and thickness of these is how you tune them to not appear solid at some inconvenient RPM. The Walker 35119 isolator is thicker than the original OEM. They are cheap so modifying them is not a big deal. They thin nicely on a belt sander but if too thin they break and you will be buying a new exhaust.

If you have an uneven idle you will never reduce the vibration to zero. Setting the torque axis struts to zero tension/compression at rest is critical.

The torque axis struts are of 3 different designs and the 3rd design, late 97 production, have replaceable inserts. These are the stamped and welded design. There are 2 pictures in my gallery. What you are attempting to accomplish is restrain the engine free motion as much as possible without going solid. The main axis of rotation is on a line between the top mount and transaxle mount. The torque axis struts are positioned to restrain the normal torque reaction and drive axle wind up. The poly inserts allow enough motion to not act as a solid link but do not transmit vibration well either. The idea is to keep large excursions of the engine/transmission and exhaust to a minimum. Small displacement of the power train transmits to large displacement in the exhaust. The rubber hangers will deftly transmit this exhaust motion into the floor pan which simulates the head on a large kettle drum, with you inside of it. You can get a buzz in the floor that does not transmit into the upper frame or seats but the large low frequency pan displacement is pushed up to a higher frequency. the characteristics of the rubber mounts determines where this buzz occurs. The trick is to get it somewhere you do not care. By minimizing the powertrain displacement you minimize the magnitude of the exhaust displacement you have to deal with. You can slightly change the static exhaust position to take all the stress off of the flex connector and have the mass of the exhaust evenly spread over the 3 mount points. The muffler hanger basically controls axial twist on the exhaust. I used the Walker 35119 isolators and just stuck them on. Ended up with the buzz from about 50 to 57mph and this is a speed range that is only passed through so I did not pursue any further elimination. the bed liner should kill this 50-57 mph buzz all by itself. The OEM isolators are a softer rubber and thinner and would possibly isolate the floor better but as they were 10+ years old and I am adverse to dragging the exhaust down the road I decided to replace them. The harder-thicker isolator appears as a solid at given frequencies.

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Old 09-11-2013, 10:16 AM   #16
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

Thank for the explaination!
I don't really have noise issues when driving, the vibration is mostly at idle, like the steering that you can see vibrating with your eyes (not much but a little) and all the loose plastics inside that plays a nice rattling symphony.

Quote:
The poly inserts allow enough motion to not act as a solid link but do not transmit vibration well either.
I remember reading yesterday about people doing the same as urethane filling like in the link i provided, but with polyurethane for softer feel. I've read that tile glue was polyurethane and that's what they used. Would it provide the same effect as these insert? If so, I will have to compare both, but I guess filling them myself would cost much less (and I can go buy that in a local store). I don't care if it's not as pretty :P this is not a show car.

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Old 09-11-2013, 10:35 AM   #17
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

The various polyurethane caulks have different harnesses and oil resistance. Those struts do nothing at idle if properly adjusted. Most likely your idle vibration is the trans mount and top mount followed by exhaust hangers.

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Old 09-11-2013, 10:45 AM   #18
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

The muffler and resonator has been changed at the beginning of the summer, and if I remember right, they changed some of the exhaust hangers (all Walker).

The top engine mount has to be change, that's for sure. Is the transmission mount a typical failure part like the top engine mount?

I will also look for poly insert. If it's cheap, it would be fast to replace. No need to wait for it to dry.

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Old 09-11-2013, 10:54 AM   #19
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

Many pictures of mounts and poly inserts here:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...ighlight=mount

From nalleygmc.com


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Old 09-11-2013, 11:05 AM   #20
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Default Re: Need Advice on Top Engine Mount

Highjack alert!
Chaos,
Nice pic, see 26 and 27? Anyone ever seen one of these ON a Saturn?
A TSB covers the install and why they were available.

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