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Old 11-01-2011, 09:44 AM   #1
marx404
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2008 Astra XE
Wrench Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

Ok, I may have brought this up before, but the rattle is getting more prevalent lately. Thia started awhile ago, but was very intermittent. Now happens most of the time. Only after the car has sat all night and I start in the morning:

Turn the key, let the chimes go and start. RATtTtTle!!!!! from under the hood when the engine starts for a second or two then no more, sounds normal after that. It almost sounds like oil is not getting to something when I start the car.

Engine runs fine, I keep up with oil changes, car has performed flawlessly for almost three years. Just worried about the noise at only 35K miles.

I had the belt tensioner pulley replaced two yrs ago, run only synthetic oil and check it every Sunday. Here is a soundclip (zipped mp3). Any help is appreciated. TIA.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Car start.zip (91.0 KB, 119 views)

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Old 11-01-2011, 10:27 PM   #2
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2008 Astra XR
2003 L-Series 2.2L Sedan
Default Re: Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

its a slow pick up from the oil pump, nothing to worry. if its been cold then thats why, the oil has thicken up a bit and has to get a little warm for it too loosen up for the pump too work fully. mine does the same thing and has always done it from day one. just do this on cold mornings, go out and start the car and let it warm up a bit before driving it. your suppose too do that anyways, not good to drive a cold motor like that.

hope this helps answer your question bro.

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Old 11-01-2011, 10:36 PM   #3
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Default Re: Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

Thanks. I guess it all depends on what you mean by "cold" but I see you live in TX, where cold is probably as cold as it gets here with S. FL. mornings, high 70's to 80 degrees.

My Bumper to Bumper Warranty is running out soon so I thought better have a tech look at it. I played the recording for them, and he said didn't sound right. Better safe than sorry.

I kinda figured something internal not getting oil soon enough, what could the culprit part be and why was it designed that way? Thanks!

btw- my rule of thumb always let her warm up until she idles down before driving.

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Old 11-01-2011, 11:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

Where is the anti-drain back valve located in these engines? Your right about the sound, something in the top end is definitely starting up with no oil pressure.

This is just a guess but if the anti-drain back valve is in the oil filter and itís letting the oil run back into the pan then the cam phasers could be stating up without any oil for those few moments. Alternatively, if you havenít changed your oil recently, its viscosity could be breaking down a bit and allowing the oil to thin out a bit which could also be the reason itís draining back.

Try having the oil and filter changed to see if that helps the problem.

Willy

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Old 11-02-2011, 04:05 PM   #5
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Default Re: Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

Quote:
Originally Posted by marx404 View Post
Thanks. I guess it all depends on what you mean by "cold" but I see you live in TX, where cold is probably as cold as it gets here with S. FL. mornings, high 70's to 80 degrees.

My Bumper to Bumper Warranty is running out soon so I thought better have a tech look at it. I played the recording for them, and he said didn't sound right. Better safe than sorry.

I kinda figured something internal not getting oil soon enough, what could the culprit part be and why was it designed that way? Thanks!

btw- my rule of thumb always let her warm up until she idles down before driving.
This happens to me every time I start the car but disappears after a couple of seconds. In Canada this happens to almost every car on start up due to cooler temperatures. It is nothing to worry about just give it 20-30 seconds to pump oil through the engine when you hear it.

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Old 11-02-2011, 07:28 PM   #6
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Default Re: Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

I have never experienced this, even in sub 20F and lower temperatures. I've only heard just the normal chatter and injectors, not the heavy knocking that was very apparent in the first couple seconds of the audio clip.

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Old 11-04-2011, 08:02 PM   #7
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Default Re: Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

I've had this exact problem for quite some time - started around 20,000 miles on my Astra and now at 56k it has gotten no better but no worst. It has nothing to do with temperature but rather with how much time the engine has gone off; I can turn it on after letting it sit overnight, it will make that noise, turn it off immediately, turn it back on - and absolutely no noise.

I've used Purolator and OEM filters, both with the same results using Castrol GTX. Using Lucas Oil Stabilizer helps somewhat. I haven't had any problems with my Astra other than this; no tensioner issues, etc. I've wondered why this noise happens but I can just imaging a dealer saying they couldn't replicate the noise...it happens about 80% of the time, and once you turn it on you need to let it sit for at least 4 - 5 hours with the engine off.

I'll be following this thread closely, perhaps it will answer my questions

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Old 11-07-2011, 12:27 PM   #8
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Default Re: Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrageo View Post
I've had this exact problem for quite some time - started around 20,000 miles on my Astra and now at 56k it has gotten no better but no worst. It has nothing to do with temperature but rather with how much time the engine has gone off; I can turn it on after letting it sit overnight, it will make that noise, turn it off immediately, turn it back on - and absolutely no noise.

I've wondered why this noise happens but I can just imaging a dealer saying they couldn't replicate the noise...it happens about 80% of the time, and once you turn it on you need to let it sit for at least 4 - 5 hours with the engine off.

I'll be following this thread closely, perhaps it will answer my questions
Thank You for verifying this, I knew I can't be the only one. The car has been in the shop for a few days now, they said they may have fixed it but wanted to keep it another night to verify noise is gone. Let you all know soon the final verdict.

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Old 11-19-2011, 11:43 AM   #9
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2008 Astra XE
Default Re: Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

Mine does it too. I assumed it's one or both of the the camshaft timing adjusters that run dry, causing the camshaft to rattle around a bit on startup. Curious if anyone finds out what it actually is.

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Old 05-27-2015, 03:11 PM   #10
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Default Re: Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

Agreed.

My Astra also had a little of the diesel rattle going on at start.

Pulling the filters off the two Engine Camshaft Position Sensors solved that problem. It also cleared check engine light and car ran much better.

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Old 05-27-2015, 05:59 PM   #11
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Default Re: Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

Filters on camshaft position sensors? I would have figured the sensor is just a proximity detector of sorts. How do I get to the filters?

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Old 05-27-2015, 07:18 PM   #12
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Default Re: Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

Relating to the Engine Camshaft Position Sensors (55352609), the filters look like an afterthought by GM; my guess is that overtime they get clogged with oil sludge and stop performing properly. As a result, the computer moves the engine into safety (and rough) mode. My sensor filters looked clean, but the car ran much better without the filters. I think GM issued a bulletin (tsb SB-10-06-04-016?) relating to this but can't remember where that is.

There are two sensors (intake and exhaust). Both are easy to access and remove on the Astra. The procedure is more complex on other EcoTec engines. Whole procedure took less than an hour.

I also looked around youtube and the internet for tips. Also see the following three threads at SaturnFans:

- P0014 exhaust camshaft position timing over advanced bank 1
- Camshaft actuator filters
- Engine lack of power with DTCs P0011, P0014, P000A, P000B, P0012, P0015 or engine rat

A few amateur comments; consult a professional/guide for full procedures:

- After removing a sensor, there were two sets of orange plastic/metal filters. Each filter is hinged so you need to lightly pry them off at the joint. I would not use a screwdriver for prying as that will scratch the sensor. The plastic is so flimsy, that each sensor had a broken filter joint.

- Also, when reinstalling the sensor, clean it a bit with oil. You might consider installing the sensor well oiled, including the seal. Check the official service manual!

Last edited by AstraFasta; 05-27-2015 at 07:19 PM.. Reason: x

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Old 11-05-2019, 07:44 PM   #13
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Default Re: Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

Was this problem ever sloved, if so, what was the fix?

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Old 11-05-2019, 09:52 PM   #14
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Default Re: Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

We had knocking rattle for a few seconds on cold start each morning. Haven't had that for a few months. The service we did this summer included:

-Cleaned both the orange & end filters off the two Engine Camshaft Position Sensors. That improved oil flow to the cam system.

- Replaced valve cover/pcv valve/valve cover gasket (leaking valve cover gasket with wet spark plugs and a suspect pcv valve).

- Changed oil and replaced with Full Synthetic

I don't know which helped most. GM has a servicenote on those orange filters so that is worth a look. Frankly, I suspect the Full Synthetic oil makes a difference if you get to the noise early (and are lucky). I will only use full synthetic oil on this engine going forward.

The typical fix is replacing the camshaft sprockets, unfortunately. A few of us got lucky and the orange filter change/full synthetic oil change worked.

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=209166

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Old 11-06-2019, 09:00 AM   #15
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Default Re: Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

For me the only thing that worked is new camshaft sprockets. A fair PITA to replace, though less so if it is done during a timing belt change as everything is already open.

A decent kit - or modifying the cheapo kit - is required to hold the camshafts in position. The sprockets are not keyed to the camshaft in any way - they are clamped on in the correct position, that's it. The kit I purchased off fleabay had slop in the positioning key slots on the flywheel side of the camshaft, and the cam timing was off enough to set a DTC - so I did mine twice ....

I ran almost 100K with the rattle (started at 50 or 60K), but it started getting much worse at the end. Sprockets got replaced at the 150K timing belt change, along with a new alternator just because I didn't want to tear everything apart again.

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Old 11-06-2019, 09:45 AM   #16
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Default Re: Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

The alternator is not a popular failure item on the Astra. But it is difficult to remove. Removing the back harness blind is tough. And figuring a way to slightly jack up the engine just enough to rotate the alternator out is tough. I could imagine alternator removal is easier with the timing covers off.

If you have the Astra with auto transmission, GM sold an upgraded alternator pulley that reduces noise, vibration and might increase life of the alternator. Installing the pulley requires removing the alternator from the car from a practical point of view. GM issued a service note on this and the pulley is worth replacing IMO. I think that pulley was part of the original engineering but GM wanted to same $10.

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Old 12-10-2019, 03:22 PM   #17
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Default Re: Knocking Rattle on Cold Start...still

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstraFasta View Post
We had knocking rattle for a few seconds on cold start each morning. Haven't had that for a few months.
Still silent on startup even on brutally cold days and without starting for several days.

I suspect the full synthetic oil made a difference, but you can see some simple recent service I did above. Probably some luck involved there but glad to avoid changing the painful camshaft sprockets (hopefully).

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