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Old 11-08-2019, 06:19 PM   #101
BB99SL2
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

Relays can cause that annoying intermitting problems. There contacts do wear over a period of time. Think about it, yours maybe original BUT it is not a common for them to go bad. A sign of a relay go bad is that intermitting problems then finally they do not work at all. Remember how many time you start and shut off the engine, for how many years? It does not hurt to check and does not cost you a penny IF YOU follow my test procedure...
BERNIE

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Old 11-08-2019, 09:11 PM   #102
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

Quote:
Originally Posted by BB99SL2 View Post
Relays can cause that annoying intermitting problems. There contacts do wear over a period of time. Think about it, yours maybe original BUT it is not a common for them to go bad. A sign of a relay go bad is that intermitting problems then finally they do not work at all. Remember how many time you start and shut off the engine, for how many years? It does not hurt to check and does not cost you a penny IF YOU follow my test procedure...
BERNIE
Thanks for this. I will definitely try this over the weekend.

I do hear the fuel injectors firing up and the fuel moving through the vehicle when I turn the key 2/3 or 3/4 of the way. We've actually been starting it this way exclusively for the last 10 years or so. Without any problems. Always starting on the first try. Until these last 5 or 6 or 7 weeks . . . . I forget how long this has been going on.

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Old 11-09-2019, 04:16 AM   #103
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

I know exactly what you are about. You are ( what you would call ) cycling the fuel pump to build up the fuel pressure in the fuel injection system. I do this all the time when I replace the fuel filter on the vehicle. I see that you do this 2 to 3 times before you start the car.

Do your self a BIG FAVOR. Go to Walmart, if you have one in your local area. Buy a can of starting fluid. It is only $2 and it can be great tool for troubleshooting a fuel problem. Just stick the can in your trunk of the car( hopefully you have the room). SO the next time the car will not start, go in your trunk and get the starting fluid. Open your hood of the car( engine compartment), right side front should be your air filter box/housing. This is when you are stand in front of car, facing the car. You will see air filter box right behind the driver side headlights. Unfasten the four clips to the top portion of the air filter housing spray the starting fluid down the black rubber inlet tube that proceeds to the throttle body inlet. Spray for about 3 seconds. You need sufficient amount of liquid. Now go a try to start the car. DO NOT TRY TO CYCLE THE FUEL PUMP!! Just crank the engine just like you did when you first bought the car new. Now if the car starts for three to five seconds and then stalls, you just found out that you have a fuel system problem. It is a great test for catching starting intermitting problem. JUST REMEMBER, you have to catch the car in the act( not wanting to start) Then do this test procedure, finally you will have and answer to your problem starts. I been there and done that many times at the shop. GOOD LUCK!

BERNIE... There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom!

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Old 11-09-2019, 04:52 AM   #104
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

I am not the only one that mention this ( billr) did too.. (fdryer) has excellent advice on fuel system troubleshooting. You are lucky to find this forum to gather information for fixing your car. Many forum members are willing to help you. Many of them years of experience working on Saturn's or in the automotive field. Intermitting problems are not a easy task, I have been over 35 year and many others even longer. You got group people supporting you so SMILE

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Old 11-11-2019, 12:14 PM   #105
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

Alright guys. I got my car into a new mechanic this morning. He'll have to wait until tomorrow to try to get it to recreate my problem as I was able to get it started and drive it in instead of towing it. That means that it will start all day long. So, he'll have to wait until at least tomorrow to see if it won't start for him.

I tried the starting fluid thing this morning - didn't work.

I just went ahead and changed the red 10 amp fuel pump thing-a-ma-jig this morning to. I don't think the old one was bad, but what's a few cents, right?

It started yesterday morning after being on a battery charger for 2 hours.

I tried charging it this morning first thing, but it said the battery was full. So I tried to start it, it wouldn't start. So after trying a few times, I put the charger back on. It didn't take long til it was reading full (10 -15 minutes maybe). Then it started up just fine.

Thoughts on this? Still a fuel issue, or a battery/electrical issue given this?

Thanks as always. I appreciate every one of you spending thinking time and typing time on this puzzle of mine

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Old 11-11-2019, 10:09 PM   #106
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

If the starting fluid didn't help, then it is unlikely this is a fueling problem; not the fuel pump or its relay, not the injectors. The next easiest thing to check, when it cranks but won't fire, is for spark. I'm guessing there will not be spark, and the prime suspect will be the CKP (crank position) sensor circuit/signal. Next after that (to suspect) would be the ICM. A competent tech should be able to determine what the specific problem is without just throwing new parts at it.

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Old 11-12-2019, 12:46 PM   #107
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

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If the starting fluid didn't help, then it is unlikely this is a fueling problem; not the fuel pump or its relay, not the injectors. The next easiest thing to check, when it cranks but won't fire, is for spark. I'm guessing there will not be spark, and the prime suspect will be the CKP (crank position) sensor circuit/signal. Next after that (to suspect) would be the ICM. A competent tech should be able to determine what the specific problem is without just throwing new parts at it.
I had my shop put in a new ICM a couple of weeks ago. I'd have to go back and look at the list of parts we bought at O'Rielly's and put in ourselves, but it seems like it had something to do with the crank shaft position sensor.

Any other ideas?

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Old 11-12-2019, 06:39 PM   #108
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

In your post, #23, the crank sensor was replaced. The main role of crank sensors is generating the timing signals the pcm needs to operate otherwise the pcm is just a door stop. The crank sensor provides the electronic heart beat to the pcm. Without this heart beat the pcm will not run at all. The pcm turns on the fuel pump, runs the ignition system for spark and pulses injectors. The crank sensor outputs when the engine is rotating.

Two ways to test crank sensors; bench testing with a multimeter for resistance or on the engine. Bench testing with a multimeter tests for resistance in three modes - ambient temperature, immersed in boiling water and after rapping it against a bench table edge. All three duplicate cold, heat and vibration of every engine from cold startup to fully warmed up, under normal engine vibrations. Resistance should be between 700-1200 ohms. On the engine testing checks indirect crank sensor operation by checking for fuel on spark plugs and spark testing across both coil towers. Since the pcm needs the crank sensor to run, when the engine turns over, the crank sensor outputs precise timing signals to the pcm. The pcm then turns on the fuel pump, initiates the ignition system for spark and pulses injectors. Removing spark plugs after a failed startup should reveal wet smelling plugs to indicate injectors are pulsing. Removing plug wires from the ignition coils and starting should show spark jumping across both coil towers.

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Old 11-12-2019, 11:02 PM   #109
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

OP, did you notice that I referred o a possible problem with the CKP sensor signal/circuit, not the sensor alone? The entire system, including wires and connectors, has to be suspected; not just the sensor. A good tech will be able to determine if the CKP input to the PCM is OK or not, without too much effort, if there is a consistent failure. The biggest obstacle here is that the problem is intermittent. The shop may have to keep it for many days, trying it over-and-over until it finally hits a "no fire" episode and they can begin the trouble-shooting.

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Old 11-13-2019, 01:00 PM   #110
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

Okay, the news of the day is that I've stumped this new, second mechanic too. He called a little while ago to say that everything he had hooked up to test when it wouldn't start, tested like it should. And anything he would think to do I/we/my other shop has already done. It sounds like he also reviewed everything you've all had to say here in these 6 pages of posts on this issue.

I'm going to go pick up my sad little car tomorrow morning (may have to actually tow it home if it won't start) and park it in the driveway for the foreseeable future. I won't be able to count on it to get to work until this mystery thing is solved. Good news is that my second job (a new job) is walking distance. Semi-good news is that I can take 2 buses to my other job; bummer news is that it pretty much takes 2 hours each way for what would be a 20 minute drive.

I still don't feel right junking it, since it runs so good when it runs, until I know what is actually wrong and how much it would cost to fix. I can't afford a new car right now so I'm kind of stuck with Betty, running or not.

So, I'm now resorting to an outright bribe or incentive or whatever you want to call it. I work in a liquor store. I'm willing to send the person that figures this out any one item in the store (with one exception, the Highland Park 25 year is not included in this offer, but anything else is).

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Old 11-13-2019, 01:25 PM   #111
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

Personally, I take that as the gauntlet slapping me in the face challenge. Too bad I'm not nearby. As I see it, this is either a wiring or flaky sensor issue requiring in depth troubleshooting. An expert auto electrician/technician can probably find it.

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Old 11-13-2019, 02:12 PM   #112
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

Been there and done this once: Replace the computer and that will resolve this intermittent problem.

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Old 11-13-2019, 02:16 PM   #113
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

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Originally Posted by toggenburg View Post
Been there and done this once: Replace the computer and that will resolve this intermittent problem.
Which computer are you referring to? We've already replaced the ICM.

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Old 11-13-2019, 07:27 PM   #114
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

Are you desperate enough yet to get compression readings?

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Old 11-13-2019, 09:09 PM   #115
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

Might seem way out in left field but have you measured the battery voltage while it's cranking?
I'll tell you why, my old SL1 did all kinds of weird stuff, sometimes would start, sometimes wouldn't.
Turned out that the + battery terminal had been over tightened, it had cracked and separated inside the battery, just enough that it still had contact but due to the increased internal resistance it couldn't provide full amperage. While cranking the voltage would drop too low for the electronics to work properly. Testing the voltage with the key off would always show the battery as good.
I can't remember what the cranking voltage was but I think if it drops much below 9.6 volts the electronics can't work so it can't start or could do funky things.

...
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Old 11-13-2019, 09:55 PM   #116
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

I'm reminded of an old Click and Clack joke.......

"What color is the car?"

...
All GM, all the time.

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Old 11-13-2019, 09:57 PM   #117
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

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I'm reminded of an old Click and Clack joke.......

"What color is the car?"
I think only you get the joke.

...
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:52 PM   #118
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

The color is silver plum.

It wouldn't start for me yesterday morning when I went to pick it up from the second shop, also stumped. I originally tried starting it with his jump pack and no go. I had brought my cousin's battery charger and extension cord along, so we got that hooked up. It was more than a little depleted, so we left it charging and ran across the street to shop a bit. Think it was on the charger for 20-30 minutes; not until fully charged. I needed to try to start it so my ride could leave and it started.

This whole thing above really puzzled the mechanic. He said hold on a minute, and went to his computer to look up product on AutoZone.com. He said, I want you to purchase this battery warmer and try that. So I went and bought it ~$34. I haven't installed or used it yet, but plan to.

When I tried to start it this morning without doing anything, it started on the first try!

I'm thinking I'm going to try to get Fleet Farm to honor their warranty on the 72-month battery I bought this past January in case there's just something really weird going on with that. I've always had good luck with the 6 year Fleet Farm batteries and have pretty much bought them exclusively.

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Old 11-15-2019, 07:21 PM   #119
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

This summer my 11 month old battery had a bad cell in it which resulted in a no start situation. I thought you had already changed the battery out so I didn't mention it. They replaced it under warranty for free and I was good to go.

...
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Old 11-15-2019, 07:59 PM   #120
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Default Re: 1998 Saturn SL2 won't start when parked on driveway incline

Was the ICM a used one from a junkyard, or parts store new?
I would get a good used one and see.

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