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Old 02-24-2007, 05:55 PM   #1
JHarbison
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2002 VUE 3.0L
Default 2002 engine stalls when i stop

My saturn has been acting as if I put bad gas in it. It will make a jerk motion and then just as soon as the brake is applied to stop it will automatically stall and i have to wait several minutes for it to start again. Heard it could be crankshaft sensor?
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Old 02-25-2007, 11:07 PM   #2
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

This sounds like the same thing that happened to me in my '02. It will only get worse, after a while it will stop every time you take your foot off the gas, and will take hours to restart. I would suggest getting your "Crankshaft Position Sensor" replaced. It will cost you about $145 parts & labor.
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Old 02-26-2007, 04:10 AM   #3
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

Sorry to inform both of you that the CPS isn't the cause of the engine stalling. If the CPS were outright dead or defective, you would never be able to have the engine running. You can attempt to start or crank over the engine but it will not run, period. The last time the engine dies, and the cause of it is from a dead CPS, will be that last time the engine runs. There have been intermittent failures of CPS' but not from releasing the gas pedal or braking. They exhibit symptoms of engine dying from normal driving, having to wait until the engine cools down to enable running again with the same result, cycling between a cool engine and normally warm engine. The other intermittent failure is cold mornings failing to start until later in the morning when air temperatures are warmer.

I'm not sure but you both may have EGR valve or intake air control (IAC) valve problems.
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Old 07-27-2013, 07:48 PM   #4
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

I also have a 2002 Vue 6cyl awd. The engine runs fine until the brake pedal is depressed. It then stalls out even if the accelerator is pushed. I checked if there was a leak in the brake booster but it holds vacuum and doesn't seem to change anything if disconnected and plugged. Any one understand what's going on. I've read that it may be a throttle motor?
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Old 07-27-2013, 09:15 PM   #5
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

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I also have a 2002 Vue 6cyl awd. The engine runs fine until the brake pedal is depressed. It then stalls out even if the accelerator is pushed. I checked if there was a leak in the brake booster but it holds vacuum and doesn't seem to change anything if disconnected and plugged. Any one understand what's going on. I've read that it may be a throttle motor?
To be clear ... (for me - you know exactly what you said ) lets say you use a hemostat or a similar crimping device to totally close off the large hose leading to brake booster ... the engine still tends to die when brake pedal is pushed?
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Old 07-28-2013, 08:56 AM   #6
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

Plugged the brake booster hose with a finger and the problem was still there. I'm pretty sure the booster doesn't leak since it had vacuum after a few days of sitting. If it helps, car in neutral or park, RPM at 3000, press brake - cars stalls. Is the VUE have a throttle motor and how would I diagnose a dirty throttle body or MFS?
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Old 07-28-2013, 09:24 AM   #7
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

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Plugged the brake booster hose with a finger and the problem was still there. I'm pretty sure the booster doesn't leak since it had vacuum after a few days of sitting. If it helps, car in neutral or park, RPM at 3000, press brake - cars stalls. Is the VUE have a throttle motor and how would I diagnose a dirty throttle body or MFS?
There is a "motor" to operate the throttle body and what you describe could be caused by either brake voltage or completed brake light ground path affecting the electronic throttle control (ETC) system.

1. With engine OFF - can you verify brake lights come on when pedal is pushed?

2. If brake lights operate normally - temporarily remove 15A brake light fuse from under-hood fuse block and see if engine is affected when brakes are pushed.
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Old 07-28-2013, 10:29 PM   #8
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

I pulled the brake light fuse and yes the car did not stall when the brake pedal was depressed. The right rear brake light was also out. At least that's what I thought. I replaced the fuse and removed the top bulb. The engine stayed running. I then pulled out the bottom bulb, placed it in the top socket and same thing, stalled. Now both of the light sockets are on (running lights) and same thing happens. Car stalls when brake is depressed. if there's short on the hot wire, then it should stall without a bulb. There should be a short on the ground side. Battery terminal was cleaned, good contact. Any thoughts?
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Old 07-28-2013, 10:32 PM   #9
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

BTW, I pulled both right rear bulbs and the car will not start. I never had a car that routed the ignition through the rear lights.
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Old 07-28-2013, 10:55 PM   #10
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

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Originally Posted by souperdad View Post
BTW, I pulled both right rear bulbs and the car will not start. I never had a car that routed the ignition through the rear lights.
My primary suspect is (was) corroded or overheated wiring in connector C200 behind kick panel next to drivers left foot.

The brake lighting circuits go through C200 - along with electronic throttle control wiring to/from gas pedal and I was thinking the two circuits were possibly making contact.

And then you drop the latest bit of information about parking lamps. Duh.

You could pull kick-panel (part of drivers door carpet retainer) and do a good visual inspection of the connector - you could also disconnect the two parts to see if wiring and contacts show signs of corrosion or heating (see thumbnail).

I'll pull wiring diagrams together and try to make some sense out of this but it'll probably be tomorrow before I can suggest anything further.
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:42 AM   #11
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

Please confirm the following conditions:

1. The right rear (RR) brake light is only bulb not lighted when brake pedal pushed - with engine off.

2. Both upper and lower rear park bulbs light when park lights are ON (engine ON and OFF).

3. Turn signal/hazard light portion of lower rear bulb lights when signals are ON.

4. Engine will die when brake pedal is pushed.

5. Engine will not die if brake pedal pushed with brake fuse removed from under hood fuse box.

6. Engine will not die if brake fuse is installed and the right rear brake light (upper) bulb is removed.

7. Engine will not start if both right side bulbs (PARK/STOP and PARK/TURN) are removed.

More questions:

Does Vue have trailer wiring installed?

Did the engine stall when brake pushed suddenly appear?

Have you inspected C200 for signs of wiring corrosion and possible overheating?

Will engine start if PARK 10A fuse is removed (center console fuse box - next to front passengers left foot)?

Have you inspected sockets for right side PARK/STOP and PARK/TURN bulbs?
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:11 PM   #12
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

The server was busy yesterday.

1. The right rear (RR) brake light is only bulb not lit when brake pedal pushed - with engine off. The socket was cleaned and now it lights, dimly maybe, canít tell.

2. Both upper and lower rear park bulbs light when park lights are ON (engine ON and OFF). With the engine off, ignition on, all lights are off. Engine on both right top and bottom lights are on, both left top and bottom are off. Ignition off, lights on both right rear top and bottom are lit. With headlights off, left front does not light. Balance of parking lights light dimly. When brake is depressed, bottom right goes off and both right and left top lights are on.

3. Turn signal/hazard light portion of lower rear bulb lights when signals are ON. Both turn signals flash the lower light bulb and slow the engine 50 -100 RPM.

4. Engine will die when brake pedal is pushed. Still is happening.

5. Engine will not die if brake pedal pushed with brake fuse removed from under hood fuse box. Yes

6. Engine will not die if brake fuse is installed and the right rear brake light (upper) bulb is removed. Correct, but engine slows 100 RPM when bulb is removed.

7. Engine will not start if both right side bulbs (PARK/STOP and PARK/TURN) are removed. Correct

More questions:

Does Vue have trailer wiring installed? Yes disconnected tonight, problem stillís the same.

Did the engine stall when brake pushed suddenly appear? Yes, stopped at light and car stalled, kept stalling when brake was pushed.

Have you inspected C200 for signs of wiring corrosion and possible overheating? C200 looks clean without trace of corrosion or overheating.

Will engine start if PARK 10A fuse is removed (center console fuse box - next to front passengers left foot)? Doesnít seem to change anything.

Have you inspected sockets for right side PARK/STOP and PARK/TURN bulbs? They look clean and without corrosion.
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Old 07-30-2013, 11:22 PM   #13
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

I just noticed your post - I'll look at more diagrams in AM.

Do you have ohm-meter? If not - I suggest you rent or borrow one and check each ground wire from each bulb socket (always black wire - to ground).

Duplicate the setup where both right side park lights were on and pull the parking lamp fuse to see if they go out.

Where was trailer wiring connected? Is it in jack compartment?
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Old 07-31-2013, 11:41 AM   #14
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by far2grumpy View Post
I just noticed your post - I'll look at more diagrams in AM.

Do you have ohm-meter? If not - I suggest you rent or borrow one and check each ground wire from each bulb socket (always black wire - to ground).

Duplicate the setup where both right side park lights were on and pull the parking lamp fuse to see if they go out.

Where was trailer wiring connected? Is it in jack compartment?
This is a really weird problem and is probably bad ground related but I've yet to find a path back to ECM if the PARK lamp fuse is removed.

However, there is a direct path to BCM (park lights flash with keyless entry) so its remotely possible a problem with the right side PARK/BRAKE lamp socket or wiring causes the BCM to influence ECM.

Also, please reconfirm problem still exists when the 10A park lamp is pulled from socket.

I'd also check the ground path for both right side PARK/STOP and PARK/TURN assemblies. Ground is the outer housing (shell) of the bulb socket - it should be connected to a black wire which is routed to G401 (number isn't important at this point).

We really want to measure 0 ohms between shell of both bulb sockets to ground and if you see something otherwise - fabricate a jumper wire to go between the light assembly and a known good ground and retest.
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Old 08-01-2013, 09:38 AM   #15
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

Iíll have to show my ignorance by not knowing what the BCM is. But I do own a VOM and know how to use it

This is a really weird problem and is probably bad ground related but I've yet to find a path back to ECM if the PARK lamp fuse is removed.

However, there is a direct path to BCM (park lights flash with keyless entry) so its remotely possible a problem with the right side PARK/BRAKE lamp socket or wiring causes the BCM to influence ECM.

Also, please reconfirm problem still exists when the 10A park lamp is pulled from socket. Confirmed

I'd also check the ground path for both right side PARK/STOP and PARK/TURN assemblies. Ground is the outer housing (shell) of the bulb socket - it should be connected to a black wire which is routed to G401 (number isn't important at this point).

We really want to measure 0 ohms between shell of both bulb sockets to ground and if you see something otherwise - fabricate a jumper wire to go between the light assembly and a known good ground and retest.


Iíll make some assumptions that the ECM controls the fuel system and the fly by wire throttle valve. Iím wondering where the ECM is grounded and where the power is routed through. Iíll have to admit I have not checked any fuses for the ECM/BCM mainly because a missing ownerís manual. Iím also assuming that if there is a ground problem with the BCM or ECM that I just might see a voltage loss at the control module feed wire when the brake is applied. Fuse locations for the above would be greatly appreciated.

Iíll check the ground resistance tonight when I get home.

Thanks,
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:33 AM   #16
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

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Originally Posted by souperdad View Post
Iím wondering where the ECM is grounded and where the power is routed through. Iíll have to admit I have not checked any fuses for the ECM/BCM mainly because a missing ownerís manual. Iím also assuming that if there is a ground problem with the BCM or ECM that I just might see a voltage loss at the control module feed wire when the brake is applied. Fuse locations for the above would be greatly appreciated.

Iíll check the ground resistance tonight when I get home.

Thanks,
I've attached map for the IP fuse layout (should also be on rear side of access fuse block access cover).

This what I suspect could be happening:

A light bulb provides a controlled short to ground through a thin wire element - current heats the element causing light.

This system depends on lighting voltage to one side of element and a good ground on the other. If the ground is missing - or poor quality - the applied voltage will find another path to ground.

In case of a dual element bulb the voltage will travel through the desired element to the common outer bulb shell - and if shell is not grounded - voltage will reverse travel through the other bulb element - and back to the usual source of the other element (if path has lower voltage potential).

So, if you have a bad ground for the PARK/BRAKE light assembly - and apply brake - 12 volts will travel to the bulb and could be returned through the PARK bulb element to sources responsible for turning PARK lights ON.

If PARK light switch is OFF the returned voltage still has a reverse path through the BCM because the BCM is also capable of lighting PARK lamps (keyless entry).

If this scenario is correct there is a chance the BCM has been "fried". I mention because you indicate right side PARK lamps are ON when they're not supposed to be (even with PARK lamp fuse removed).

I've heard of similar problems happening (Chevy pickup forum) when a trailer light converter develops problems. You mention removing yours but might be worthwhile to double-check.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:31 AM   #17
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

Where is the BCM located?

Thanks,
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:22 PM   #18
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

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Where is the BCM located?

Thanks,
Behind and partially beneath the HVAC control head (see thumbnail).

Did the ground connections checkout OK?
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Old 08-04-2013, 09:09 PM   #19
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

Every pin on the main right rear plug, (unplugged) except the black showed continuity to ground when ignition was on. I think it has to be either the BCM or ECM. Both are expensive replacements. I do appreciate your help. Would you change the BCM first?
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:11 PM   #20
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Default Re: 2002 engine stalls when i stop

Quote:
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Every pin on the main right rear plug, (unplugged) except the black showed continuity to ground when ignition was on. I think it has to be either the BCM or ECM. Both are expensive replacements. I do appreciate your help. Would you change the BCM first?
The information in this post sounds familiar ... I don't see resolution but perhaps yo could send a private message to the poster:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=183043

Now back to your Vue - which right rear plug?

Do you mean right upper bulb socket (Park & Brake)? It would have two inner contacts to mate with bulb contacts.

I would not change ECM or BCM without more testing, especially after reading the other thread.

With key OFF use meter or test light to check for PARK and BRAKE voltage at the two bulb socket contacts. Test in sequence to make sure one contact has power when PARK lamps are on and the other when BRAKE pedal is pushed.

Then try same test when key is ON - to make sure your meter isn't giving a reading that you interpret as ground path.

You also need to restore the ground path for the light socket - either by replacing the bulb socket or with a complete new light fixture (less than $60 at RockAuto - you might also find at local store).

You could isolate the BCM as problem by temporarily removing connector C2 from BCM and see if PARK lamps operate normally with and without key ON. See attached thumbnail for help identifying C2 - it would be the only 24 pin grey connector.

I continue to think this started with a shorted light bulb, a bad socket or a bulb twisted to short between the two elements, or a bad ground wire.

I can't think of anything else until you indicate which connector you were speaking of.
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