SaturnFans.com
saturnfans.com - classifieds - forums - webmail


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn L-Series > L-Series Tech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-26-2021, 11:06 PM   #1
BrandonKastning
Advanced Member
BrandonKastning will become famous soon enough
 
BrandonKastning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Arlington, WA
Posts: 861

2001 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Question 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

Hey everyone!

I have a GM Saturn Factory Service Manual; however there is a question that I have and don't have a definitive answer and posted a new thread here in hopes of attaining that answer by somebodies personal experience.

I have so far removed the timing belt cover and was preparing to remove the timing belt with the timing belt kit (the one with the J*69 tool + E20 torx socket + RED+GREEN camshaft lock keys + wedge);

I lined up the TDC (top dead center) marks on the timing belt + camshaft sprockets & it aligns perfectly to TDC. I took pictures after marking it with white out for easy re-assembly.

Since I will be doing more than just replacing the timing belt (replacing it on re-assembly); the factory service manual says to do the procedure in the following order (this is where I get confused).

Currently the keys (RED AND GREEN) are in-between Camshaft sprockets #1 & #2 + Camshaft sprockets #3 & #4. This is at FULL TDC (both camshaft sprockets + crankshaft).

The order of the factory service manual states this:

REMOVAL (Timing Belt Replacement - In-Vehicle):

1. Disconnect negative battery cable
2. Remove timing belt front cover
3. Rotate crankshaft using Crank Hub Torx Socket J42098 (E20 Torx Socket) until #1 cylinder is at 60 degrees Before Top Dead Center (BTDC)
4. Install crankshaft locking tool, Alignment Tool Kit J42069-10
5. Rotate crankshaft in the engine rotational direction (clockwise) using J42098 crank hub torx socket until #1 cylinder is at TDC and tighten lever arm to the water pump pulley flange.

IMPORTANT: Ensure that the alignment of crankshaft is not 180 degrees off. The alignment marks must align with the corresponding notches on the rear timing belt cover.

6. Install 1-2 and 3-4 camshaft locks, J42069-1 and J42069-2.
7. Remove upper and lower idler pulleys.
8. Loosen timing belt tensioner.
9. Remove timing belt.

IMPORTANT: Do not rotate crankshaft if camshafts are not locked in place with 1-2 and 3-4 camshaft locks, J42069-1 (RED KEY) and J42069-2 (GREEN KEY)

IMPORTANT: Do not rotate camshafts unless crankshaft is at 60 degrees BTDC or valves may contact crankshaft.

My confusion is; I marked all the correct timing and cranked the crankshaft using the timing belt kit that I purchased. All lined up and THEN I inserted both RED AND GREEN KEYs. (This was prior to reading the FSM and realizing there was more to this than I originally understood). I never used my angler tool to set the crankshaft 60 degrees BTDC and I am wondering if there are TWO locations that the RED AND GREEN camshaft sprocket locks fit into (TDC) AND 60 degrees (BTDC)?

I won't be able to test for myself until I purchase a new ratchet that will fit my degree angler tool (it doesn't fit between the chassis and the engine block due to the width of my angler tool; the 3/8th to 1/2inch adapters) -- Going to switch to all 1/2 inch and then I will be able to do it if this is true.

I have spoken to others who have said they have only performed a timing belt change and keeping all timing at (TDC) and removing and replacing the belt + tensioners + idler pulley without the 60 degrees (BTDC) went smooth. (Given the fact that I am going to be removing everything to get to the head gaskets; I feel as if this was put into the factory service manual for going beyond a normal timing belt change).

Thank you in advance!

~ Best Regards

Brandon Kastning
WE THE PEOPLE ONLINE
wethepeopleonline.com
U.S. Const. Art. VI., Clause 2, 3 (September 17, 1787).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image_14601.jpg (125.4 KB, 5 views)
BrandonKastning is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 02-27-2021, 03:43 AM   #2
Rj 2000 LS2
Advanced Member
Rj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really nice
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: NE Wisconsin
Posts: 535

2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

In your photo, it shows the plastic wiring enclosure is still in place. Disconnect that and move it out of the way.

I am going to guess at the 60 degrees BDTC statement. It is very possible to get the engine 180 degrees out of phase. If you locate 60 degrees BDTC, you will ensure the marks will be True for TDC and not 180 out of time.

Please go back and read my earlier comments. With cams locks install, crank lock installed at TDC Start the belt at 9 AM location of the crank pulley, lock it in place with the wedge, then route the belt counter clockwise as you use the belt marks to get close to each engine cam mark. Tighten, belt tensioner once the belt is installed. It's only 15ftlbs so don't got gorilla on it. I was more detailed on earlier comments. The important part is to secure the belt tensioner and rotate the engine 360 and check the Cam Marks to the Engine marks. This requires removing and reinstalling all locks to rotate the crank.

Important: The timing belt "travels" so the belt only hits the same cam tooth once in 59 (I don't remember the exact number) or so revolutions. You painted the belt marks and you need to paint the cam marks and the plastic cam cover marks and ignore the belt marks after the first rotation of the engine. If you think the belt will remain in the same location, you would be wrong.

Secondly, never loosen the belt tensioner without the cam locks and crank lock in place. It takes 8 or more revolutions to properly get the slack out of the belt, time each cam and then reset the belt tensioner to spec.
Rj 2000 LS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2021, 11:45 AM   #3
BrandonKastning
Advanced Member
BrandonKastning will become famous soon enough
 
BrandonKastning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Arlington, WA
Posts: 861

2001 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Question Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
In your photo, it shows the plastic wiring enclosure is still in place. Disconnect that and move it out of the way.

I am going to guess at the 60 degrees BDTC statement. It is very possible to get the engine 180 degrees out of phase. If you locate 60 degrees BDTC, you will ensure the marks will be True for TDC and not 180 out of time.

Please go back and read my earlier comments. With cams locks install, crank lock installed at TDC Start the belt at 9 AM location of the crank pulley, lock it in place with the wedge, then route the belt counter clockwise as you use the belt marks to get close to each engine cam mark. Tighten, belt tensioner once the belt is installed. It's only 15ftlbs so don't got gorilla on it. I was more detailed on earlier comments. The important part is to secure the belt tensioner and rotate the engine 360 and check the Cam Marks to the Engine marks. This requires removing and reinstalling all locks to rotate the crank.

Important: The timing belt "travels" so the belt only hits the same cam tooth once in 59 (I don't remember the exact number) or so revolutions. You painted the belt marks and you need to paint the cam marks and the plastic cam cover marks and ignore the belt marks after the first rotation of the engine. If you think the belt will remain in the same location, you would be wrong.

Secondly, never loosen the belt tensioner without the cam locks and crank lock in place. It takes 8 or more revolutions to properly get the slack out of the belt, time each cam and then reset the belt tensioner to spec.
Rj 2000 LS2,
Thank you for the detailed info on the timing belt again. I am primarily only concerned at this point with the cam locks and if they have two locations that allow penetration/locking.

TDC locks perfectly (however; if it's off even by a half a tooth, it will not let the key locks to go in);

this is the only reason I have asked this question. Because my understanding would be GM either:

1) Made two spots for the cam locks to fit in (TDC) and 60 degrees (BTDC) [I am having a feeling this isn't the case]; I will know upon rule out, unless somebody who has done this can chime in.

2) GM made (TDC) the *only* fitting spot for the cam locks (RED) and (GREEN) and I must rotate the crankshaft 60 degrees (BTDC) *AFTER* timing belt removal, once I break the camshaft bolts loose (since the camshafts wont turn out of time, once their are locked, bolts loosened and the timing belt removed).

Best Regards,

Brandon!

Last edited by BrandonKastning; 02-27-2021 at 11:46 AM. Reason: edit
BrandonKastning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2021, 12:24 PM   #4
Rj 2000 LS2
Advanced Member
Rj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really nice
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: NE Wisconsin
Posts: 535

2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

There are likely dozens of degrees the cam locks will fit. Don't get fixated on the 60 degree mark. T.D.C. is the only meaningful location when changing the belt.

I would NOT remove any locks after you remove the timing belt. The new belt MUST be install immediately after the old belt is removed. If you remove the cam locks and crank lock while the timing belt is removed and you start to rotate the crank... you will hear all cams spin to their resting position as the valve spring dictate their location and some will slap the pistons. At this point, you would be required to completely re-time every cam.

Remove the belt at T.D.C. and immediately install the new belt while everything is remains locked.

Last edited by Rj 2000 LS2; 02-27-2021 at 12:32 PM.
Rj 2000 LS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2021, 09:04 PM   #5
pierrot
Master Member
pierrot has much to be proud ofpierrot has much to be proud ofpierrot has much to be proud ofpierrot has much to be proud ofpierrot has much to be proud ofpierrot has much to be proud ofpierrot has much to be proud ofpierrot has much to be proud ofpierrot has much to be proud of
 
pierrot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Glendora, CA
Posts: 3,988
 

2000 L-Series 2.2L Sedan
Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

^ BrandonKastning, please be sure to follow the advice given in the above post. There's no need to generate hours of unnecessary work to re-time your engine.
...
346K miles - Holy canolli!
Biden/Harris predictions, '21 -'25: weak economy; weakened military; increased terrorism; an emboldened RED CHINA. I fear that I will be correct. I'd rather be wrong.
pierrot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2021, 11:49 AM   #6
lrbraner
Member
lrbraner is a jewel in the roughlrbraner is a jewel in the roughlrbraner is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Ft. Wayne, IN
Posts: 298

2002 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
2003 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

I have replaced the timing belt and components on 2 of my L300's.
I agree that the 60 Deg BTDC is not something to stress about.
I believe it is stated in the manual to make sure you have room to install the crank lock tool and the be able to rotate the engine in the correct direction to TDC and look the tool.
The only important location is TDC
...
2002 L300 Sedan
2003 LW300 Wagon
2005 L300 Sedan
lrbraner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2021, 06:13 PM   #7
BrandonKastning
Advanced Member
BrandonKastning will become famous soon enough
 
BrandonKastning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Arlington, WA
Posts: 861

2001 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by pierrot View Post
^ BrandonKastning, please be sure to follow the advice given in the above post. There's no need to generate hours of unnecessary work to re-time your engine.
pierrot,

100% sir; I plan to only remove the belt at TDC. I just know that I won't be able to install the new belt right away since I will be pulling the camshafts to access the valve gaskets and then pull the heads to replace the head gaskets.

I just need to ensure that I do not bend a valve by *not* taking the Factory Service Manual procedure of ensuring that the crankshaft is 60 degrees BTDC [which the only thing makes sense is after removing the belt].

Thanks for looking out!

~ Brandon
BrandonKastning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2021, 06:16 PM   #8
BrandonKastning
Advanced Member
BrandonKastning will become famous soon enough
 
BrandonKastning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Arlington, WA
Posts: 861

2001 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrbraner View Post
I have replaced the timing belt and components on 2 of my L300's.
I agree that the 60 Deg BTDC is not something to stress about.
I believe it is stated in the manual to make sure you have room to install the crank lock tool and the be able to rotate the engine in the correct direction to TDC and look the tool.
The only important location is TDC
lbraner,

That's a relief to read. Have you ever gone beyond the timing belt removal to replace any gaskets (valve and / or heads) ?

I will be using the crank hub lock tool at the very end to replace the seal when I am re-assembling and then putting the new belt(s) (timing and drive) on.

Thanks and glad to read!

~ Brandon
BrandonKastning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 02:58 AM   #9
Rj 2000 LS2
Advanced Member
Rj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really nice
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: NE Wisconsin
Posts: 535

2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

I changed the timing belt, put it back together and the water pump went out, so I had to redo everything on the front of the engine again, then the car started puking oil out of every gasket. I then rebuilt the Oil Separator PCV module, then replaced the valve cover gaskets and rebuilt the Oil Separator again because odd **** happened, finished the valve cover gaskets and then discovered the large vacuum on the large intake hose to the front bank. Finished all that and oil stopped leaking. Then the brake lines let go and here I am replacing every brake line. So I have replaced a few gaskets and I am telling you for the 10'n th time... fix or replace your Oil Separator and you won't need to replace the head gasket or the cam seals because the oil leakage is due to crank case pressure not faulty gaskets. You are making too much work for yourself. Fix only what is broken and leave everything else alone. If you pull the cam sprockets off you had better start to learn how to ReTime the entire engine. Without the cam locks on the sprockets, you will have valves bouncing off the pistons. They won't break then, but you put the engine together out of time... you will bent/brake valve immediately. The job you describe is for seasoned mechanics not garage monkeys like us.
Rj 2000 LS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 10:59 AM   #10
BrandonKastning
Advanced Member
BrandonKastning will become famous soon enough
 
BrandonKastning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Arlington, WA
Posts: 861

2001 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
I changed the timing belt, put it back together and the water pump went out, so I had to redo everything on the front of the engine again, then the car started puking oil out of every gasket. I then rebuilt the Oil Separator PCV module, then replaced the valve cover gaskets and rebuilt the Oil Separator again because odd **** happened, finished the valve cover gaskets and then discovered the large vacuum on the large intake hose to the front bank. Finished all that and oil stopped leaking. Then the brake lines let go and here I am replacing every brake line. So I have replaced a few gaskets and I am telling you for the 10'n th time... fix or replace your Oil Separator and you won't need to replace the head gasket or the cam seals because the oil leakage is due to crank case pressure not faulty gaskets. You are making too much work for yourself. Fix only what is broken and leave everything else alone. If you pull the cam sprockets off you had better start to learn how to ReTime the entire engine. Without the cam locks on the sprockets, you will have valves bouncing off the pistons. They won't break then, but you put the engine together out of time... you will bent/brake valve immediately. The job you describe is for seasoned mechanics not garage monkeys like us.
Rj 2000 LS2,

My understanding is (and I watched the video from the guy and the L81 from the cadillac CTS) that cam sprockets once marked IN-TIME (which mine are); makes it easy to place them back correctly IN-TIME without making more problems or even more work.

Since I don't have the coil packs in, or the spark plugs; I shouldn't be up against resistance from everything I have learned here.

The guy''s cadillac CTS L81 video shows him marking the cam sprockets and putting them back on exactly in the same place.

I would like to believe that the same will happen with me since I marked the best I could and will take pictures before pulling the sprockets.

At this point; I could just do the valve seals or I could do the valve seals on the way back re-assembling and do the head gaskets which only requires a few more things to do.

Such as:

a) Pulling the Oil Cooker
b) Disconnecting the EGR/EKR* (incorrect spelling)
c) o2 sensor pull
d) Rear Exhaust
e) Fuel Rail
f) Injector Pack & Connectors

then roll in a secondary jack and lift the powertrain to pull the 6th transaxle mounting bolt (which frees the front or rear cylinder head); this allows me to pull them completely once the hoses are all removed.

I purchased a very nice Gasket Scraper also with new head bolts.

Cylinder #1 is the one the factory service manual "warns" about. As in the 60 degrees BTDC protects Cylinder #1. I wonder if Cylinder #1 is exposed or is in danger if the crankshaft is not 60 degrees BTDC once the cam sprockets are removed, the timing belt removed and you start to repair or upgrade other parts beyond the timing belt.

Brake lines reads like a real pain the ass RJ! Hope your project comes to a successful close soon.

Thanks everyone! So much to learn!

~ Best Regards,

Brandon Kastning
WE THE PEOPLE ONLINE
wethepeopleonline.com
U.S. Const. Art. VI., Clause 2, 3 (September 17, 1787).
BrandonKastning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 04:18 PM   #11
Rj 2000 LS2
Advanced Member
Rj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really nice
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: NE Wisconsin
Posts: 535

2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

I believe the cams can literally only be installed in a certain position. They are keyed or something like that. But, if you watch the guy install the new timing belt, none of the cams are resting in the correction location and each must be spun to match the timing marks properly as the belt is threaded on that cam. In order to do this you must have the timing belt and crank locked into position at T.D.C. and route the timing belt in a counter clockwise direction, spinning each cam to the proper location and then clamp the timing belt to the cam to prevent it from spinning back to rest, which it would do. You will not believe how strong those valve springs are! It take some force to accomplish, then repeat with the next cam in a counter clockwise direction until all cams are locked to the belt using strong clamps and the belt is routed around the belt tensioner and it is roughly tightened to hold tension on the belt.

Now you remove all clamps and start to rotate the engine 360 degrees and check each cam to it's engine timing mark. Starting with the cam at 2pm position, adjust to the timing mark using the idler "cam" adjustment i.e. loosen the bolt and adjust the idler cam to zero the timing mark on the 2pm cam location. Tighten bolt and move to the next cam in a counterclockwise direction. Rotate 360 and verify the 2pm cam is dead nuts on time. Repeat timing procedure with each next idler.

It is important to recheck each cam timing mark after each rotation because any adjustment will affect all timing marks. It's a process you will only learn by doing it. It takes 8 or more rotations/adjustments of the engine to re-time the engine properly if you are lucky and nothing breaks loose! If it does, you have to start all over again. I think I had to rotate my engine 20 times or more to get it right nuts on.

Once complete, be sure to set the Belt Tensioner tension off the mechanical part's scale by about a 8th of inch. Lock the cams and belt locks before making any adjustments to the Belt Tensioner. If you loosen Belt Tensioner without first locking the cams and crank, everything will spin to rest severely de-tuning the entire engine! Setting it at the top of the mechanical part's scale is NOT enough tension for today's new belts. This is different that the manual but mechanics over time have learned more tension is needed on new belts.

NOTE: The marks on the timing belt are ONLY useful upon the immediate locating of the belt during first positioning of the belt. After one rotation of the engine, the timing belt marks are useless and you must rely on the CAM sprocket marks and the plastic housing timing marks for all adjustments. I noticed in your photo, you painted the side of the timing belt. When they said to paint the timing marks, they were referring to the Cam Sprocket Marks and the plastic housing marks, not the belt itself. Do not pay attention to the belt marks after the first rotation, during the timing procedure i.e. ignore the belt marks for this are ONLY useful when the belt is first installed around each pulley and idler.

Also, many belts are made for multiple engines and they are marked for both. So when you install the new timing belt, don't use the wrong belt mark for T.D.C.

Last point, don't listen to anyone who says the cam sprockets can be taken off the engine and the cam will remain stationary. It might or they might not. You'll know when they flop to rest because the valve will slam shut rather loudly.

IMPORTANT: If you have NO evidence of a leaking head... don't remove the heads! Oil does not leak from an engine head. Oil leaks from valve cover gaskets above the heads.
Rj 2000 LS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 10:13 PM   #12
BrandonKastning
Advanced Member
BrandonKastning will become famous soon enough
 
BrandonKastning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Arlington, WA
Posts: 861

2001 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Question Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
I believe the cams can literally only be installed in a certain position. They are keyed or something like that. But, if you watch the guy install the new timing belt, none of the cams are resting in the correction location and each must be spun to match the timing marks properly as the belt is threaded on that cam. In order to do this you must have the timing belt and crank locked into position at T.D.C. and route the timing belt in a counter clockwise direction, spinning each cam to the proper location and then clamp the timing belt to the cam to prevent it from spinning back to rest, which it would do. You will not believe how strong those valve springs are! It take some force to accomplish, then repeat with the next cam in a counter clockwise direction until all cams are locked to the belt using strong clamps and the belt is routed around the belt tensioner and it is roughly tightened to hold tension on the belt.

Now you remove all clamps and start to rotate the engine 360 degrees and check each cam to it's engine timing mark. Starting with the cam at 2pm position, adjust to the timing mark using the idler "cam" adjustment i.e. loosen the bolt and adjust the idler cam to zero the timing mark on the 2pm cam location. Tighten bolt and move to the next cam in a counterclockwise direction. Rotate 360 and verify the 2pm cam is dead nuts on time. Repeat timing procedure with each next idler.

It is important to recheck each cam timing mark after each rotation because any adjustment will affect all timing marks. It's a process you will only learn by doing it. It takes 8 or more rotations/adjustments of the engine to re-time the engine properly if you are lucky and nothing breaks loose! If it does, you have to start all over again. I think I had to rotate my engine 20 times or more to get it right nuts on.

Once complete, be sure to set the Belt Tensioner tension off the mechanical part's scale by about a 8th of inch. Lock the cams and belt locks before making any adjustments to the Belt Tensioner. If you loosen Belt Tensioner without first locking the cams and crank, everything will spin to rest severely de-tuning the entire engine! Setting it at the top of the mechanical part's scale is NOT enough tension for today's new belts. This is different that the manual but mechanics over time have learned more tension is needed on new belts.

NOTE: The marks on the timing belt are ONLY useful upon the immediate locating of the belt during first positioning of the belt. After one rotation of the engine, the timing belt marks are useless and you must rely on the CAM sprocket marks and the plastic housing timing marks for all adjustments. I noticed in your photo, you painted the side of the timing belt. When they said to paint the timing marks, they were referring to the Cam Sprocket Marks and the plastic housing marks, not the belt itself. Do not pay attention to the belt marks after the first rotation, during the timing procedure i.e. ignore the belt marks for this are ONLY useful when the belt is first installed around each pulley and idler.

Also, many belts are made for multiple engines and they are marked for both. So when you install the new timing belt, don't use the wrong belt mark for T.D.C.

Last point, don't listen to anyone who says the cam sprockets can be taken off the engine and the cam will remain stationary. It might or they might not. You'll know when they flop to rest because the valve will slam shut rather loudly.

IMPORTANT: If you have NO evidence of a leaking head... don't remove the heads! Oil does not leak from an engine head. Oil leaks from valve cover gaskets above the heads.
Rj 2000 LS2,

Thank you for that detailed write up. When you replaced your valve gaskets; did you do this immediately after removing the timing belt? Did you have to remove the timing belt rear cover?

In the factory service manual; there is no "Valve Gasket" replacement section. I have seen "Intake Manifold and Manifold Spacer Replacement"; it says I need the following tools:

~ J43914 - Hose Clamp Pliers
~ SA9805E - Fuel Line Seperator

Removal,

1. Disconnect negative battery cable.

2. Remove intake plenum.

3. Relieve fuel system pressure.

4. Remove fuel supply hose from the fuel rail using Fuel Line Seperator SA9805E.

5. Remove fuel return hose from the fuel rail using SA9805E, fuel line seperator.

6. Disconnect fuel injector electrical harness connector.

7. Remove fuel injector connectors.

8. Remove fuel injector harness.

9. Remove fuel rail bolts.

10. Remove fuel rail.

11. Remove intake manifold bolts.

12. Remove intake manifold.

13. Remove manifold spacer bolts.

14. Remove manifold spacer.

NOTICE: Mask off ports to intake manifold spacer. Severe damage may result if foreign objects enter engine.

15. Remove sealing rings.

16. Clean manifold sealing surfaces with a nonabrasive tool or solvent.

The installation part says to "Install intake manifold gaskets." (I am guessing this is not the valve gaskets) or are they?

I see the picture under the Intake Manifold that shows 3 x 2 holes (on the gasket that the FSM is calling "Intake manifold gaskets.").

I am having a feeling these are not the Valve Gaskets that are more than likely causing oil leaks? Does anyone know where to find the correct "Valve Gaskets" in a FSM that RJ 2000 LS2 is referring to? Thanks in advance!

P.S. - The best tools I could find (that were not GM) was on amazon; I was able to find the following possible replacements:

- Master Disconnect Set - 22 piece. GM supported - Amazon

- Professional Hose Clamp Pliers - Amazon

~ Best Regards,

Brandon Kastning
WE THE PEOPLE ONLINE
wethepeopleonline.com
U.S. Const. Art. VI., Clause 2, 3 (September 17, 1787).
...
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” - John 3:16 (KJV)

Last edited by BrandonKastning; 03-03-2021 at 10:18 PM. Reason: forgot to add the tools I purchased for the fuel rail systems
BrandonKastning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2021, 01:18 AM   #13
Rj 2000 LS2
Advanced Member
Rj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really nice
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: NE Wisconsin
Posts: 535

2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

You need to remove upper intake, the middle intake and the lower intake. The valve covers will come off with the timing belt completely installed. Just be careful to not drop debris inside the engine while the valve covers are off. Clean off all the old gasket material and any RTV (high temp gasket maker) etc... A mistake I did is not securing the gasket to the front valve cover with some RTV at points to keep it secure. It must seat cleanly and a little gasket material every few inches will ensure the gasket seats properly. In other words, don't rely on the gasket and the bolt rings to remain seated without a little gasket material to hold them in place etc...

Also, when you do the Timing Belt, change out the water pump while you are in there. I literally finished the timing belt job and a couple months later the water pump gave up the ghost. It is very easy but I wish I had changed it out while I was inside doing the timing belt!

I didn't go over all the points you listed... too detailed. Just do what needs to be done and leave the rest alone.
Rj 2000 LS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2021, 01:43 AM   #14
Rj 2000 LS2
Advanced Member
Rj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really nice
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: NE Wisconsin
Posts: 535

2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

I tried editing my response, but the site locked up. So I am pasting it over again so ignore the redundant parts.

You need to remove upper intake, the middle intake and the lower intake. The valve covers will come off with the timing belt completely installed. Just be careful to not drop debris inside the engine while the valve covers are off. Clean off all the old gasket material and any RTV (high temp gasket maker) etc... A mistake I did is not securing the gasket to the front valve cover with some RTV at points to keep it secure. It must seat cleanly and a little gasket material every few inches will ensure the gasket seats properly. In other words, don't rely on the gasket and the bolt rings to remain seated without a little gasket material to hold them in place etc...

Also, when you do the Timing Belt, change out the water pump while you are in there. I literally finished the timing belt job and a couple months later the water pump gave up the ghost. It is very easy but I wish I had changed it out while I was inside doing the timing belt!

I didn't go over all the points you listed... too detailed. Just do what needs to be done and leave the rest alone. Okay, I read the first few items on your list. I didn't do 3 through 10, it isn't necessary. They fold back and out of the way just fine. Removing the EGR is very tricky, I left it attached to the intake and disconnected it from the exhaust and a bolt from the rear engine lift bracket (hard to find) and then carefully remove the intake along with the ERG. This will save you a ton of catch22 situations trying to remove these components.

"The installation part says to "Install intake manifold gaskets." (I am guessing this is not the valve gaskets) or are they?" There are gaskets between each intake component. A Head gasket set will include all the gaskets necessary to get to the heads. Leave the heads alone and store the head gaskets for future potential use. There are a lot of gaskets to deal with. The valve cover gaskets consist of two rectangle shaped gaskets with numerous small o-rings that provide a seal around the bolt holes in each valve cover.

While you have all the intake components and the valve covers off... remove the Oil Separator PCV module and inspect it, clean it and DIY a new Reed Valve if necessary. This module, if not working properly, is the cause of the leaking oil due to excess crankcase pressure. There are two large and one small hoses and all must be clear for air flow. I really don't understand the operation of this module, but it is critical to vent crankcase pressure. Spend time on this module and your oil leaks will disappear! However, once the valve cover gaskets leak, they must be replaced. My valve cover gaskets were hard as rocks and leaking horribly. So bad that I thought the exhaust manifolds were cracked. I could see physical cracks in the exhaust manifolds until I cleaned them and learned it was an optical illusion from the baked on oil burning off the manifolds.
Rj 2000 LS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2021, 04:49 PM   #15
lrbraner
Member
lrbraner is a jewel in the roughlrbraner is a jewel in the roughlrbraner is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Ft. Wayne, IN
Posts: 298

2002 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
2003 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

Brandon, your post title mentions head gasket replacement.
But you talk about valve cover gaskets ?
What exactly are you planning on doing?
...
2002 L300 Sedan
2003 LW300 Wagon
2005 L300 Sedan
lrbraner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2021, 11:38 AM   #16
BrandonKastning
Advanced Member
BrandonKastning will become famous soon enough
 
BrandonKastning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Arlington, WA
Posts: 861

2001 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
I tried editing my response, but the site locked up. So I am pasting it over again so ignore the redundant parts.

You need to remove upper intake, the middle intake and the lower intake. The valve covers will come off with the timing belt completely installed. Just be careful to not drop debris inside the engine while the valve covers are off. Clean off all the old gasket material and any RTV (high temp gasket maker) etc... A mistake I did is not securing the gasket to the front valve cover with some RTV at points to keep it secure. It must seat cleanly and a little gasket material every few inches will ensure the gasket seats properly. In other words, don't rely on the gasket and the bolt rings to remain seated without a little gasket material to hold them in place etc...

Also, when you do the Timing Belt, change out the water pump while you are in there. I literally finished the timing belt job and a couple months later the water pump gave up the ghost. It is very easy but I wish I had changed it out while I was inside doing the timing belt!

I didn't go over all the points you listed... too detailed. Just do what needs to be done and leave the rest alone. Okay, I read the first few items on your list. I didn't do 3 through 10, it isn't necessary. They fold back and out of the way just fine. Removing the EGR is very tricky, I left it attached to the intake and disconnected it from the exhaust and a bolt from the rear engine lift bracket (hard to find) and then carefully remove the intake along with the ERG. This will save you a ton of catch22 situations trying to remove these components.

"The installation part says to "Install intake manifold gaskets." (I am guessing this is not the valve gaskets) or are they?" There are gaskets between each intake component. A Head gasket set will include all the gaskets necessary to get to the heads. Leave the heads alone and store the head gaskets for future potential use. There are a lot of gaskets to deal with. The valve cover gaskets consist of two rectangle shaped gaskets with numerous small o-rings that provide a seal around the bolt holes in each valve cover.

While you have all the intake components and the valve covers off... remove the Oil Separator PCV module and inspect it, clean it and DIY a new Reed Valve if necessary. This module, if not working properly, is the cause of the leaking oil due to excess crankcase pressure. There are two large and one small hoses and all must be clear for air flow. I really don't understand the operation of this module, but it is critical to vent crankcase pressure. Spend time on this module and your oil leaks will disappear! However, once the valve cover gaskets leak, they must be replaced. My valve cover gaskets were hard as rocks and leaking horribly. So bad that I thought the exhaust manifolds were cracked. I could see physical cracks in the exhaust manifolds until I cleaned them and learned it was an optical illusion from the baked on oil burning off the manifolds.
Rj 2000 LS2,

Thank you for the clarification on that. The write up; your experience and how you managed to complete the job and stop your engine leaks. I am especially glad to know that Steps 3-10 can be skipped to access the valve cover gaskets by folding back the fuel rail system.

As for the ERG and the PCV module (both have been removed and cleaned) on previous posts with new RTV and GM hoses (new).

Good thing it was an optical illusion (baked oil) rather than cracks!

Best Regards,

~ Brandon
BrandonKastning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2021, 11:41 AM   #17
BrandonKastning
Advanced Member
BrandonKastning will become famous soon enough
 
BrandonKastning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Arlington, WA
Posts: 861

2001 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrbraner View Post
Brandon, your post title mentions head gasket replacement.
But you talk about valve cover gaskets ?
What exactly are you planning on doing?
lbraner,

I am planning on replacing every gasket I can possibly replace until my engine stops leaking. I just learned I need more specialty tools if the valve cover gaskets, camshaft gaskets and crankshaft gasket doesn't fix the oil leak; then I have to purchase 3 proprietary tools to replace the Valve Stems according to the Factory Service Manual.

fdryer on another post advised that I should refrain from the head gasket change until I do proper compression checks on the cylinders per Factory Service Manual procedures.

Thanks for your interest and time!

~ Brandon
BrandonKastning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2021, 02:23 PM   #18
Rj 2000 LS2
Advanced Member
Rj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really niceRj 2000 LS2 is just really nice
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: NE Wisconsin
Posts: 535

2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

I don't know how, but you really need to "measure" the crankcase pressure to determine if you really can stop oil from leaking! New gaskets will not prevent oil leaks from returning in a few months if the crankcase pressure is excessive due to massive blow by.

The Oil Separator PCV Reed Valve is the key. Most all reed valve(s) on the port of the Oil Separator's port is baked and/or gone. This tiny flap must be "flappable" (technical term LOL) to vent the crankcase pressure appropriately. Old engines tend to develop a lot of crankcase pressure, i.e. blow by, which will blow out gaskets even blow out new gaskets. The Reed allow the pressure to escape while keeping the hoses from plugging up for awhile. With an open Reed port, the hoses will quickly pull up with gunk and then the gaskets become the vent for crank case pressure.

The CTS Caddy engine (I think it's the CTS) is the same as ours, but the top end is a different design. They incorporate an actual PCV device into the top housing which also plugs up. The connected Oil Separator PCV module is identical to ours. Which leads me to believe... why can't we add an real PCV to our system? Ideally, a PCV could be added (some how some way) on the large hose between the Oil Separator Module and the pass over plastic bridge. Providing there is room to install it.

I MUST remind you to only do one thing at a time. If you monkey with too many repairs at once... you will get entangled in a never ending oh fuk diagnostic H-E-L-L! Besides, if you start the project in March and finish it September, I don't know about you, But I would NOT know how to reassemble everything. I used plastic bags for every major component's bolts and I labeled them with what size, where they went and what tool is needed to install them and how tight(etc). Had I not done this I would have never gotten it back together (multiple times).
Rj 2000 LS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2021, 12:47 PM   #19
BrandonKastning
Advanced Member
BrandonKastning will become famous soon enough
 
BrandonKastning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Arlington, WA
Posts: 861

2001 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Question Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
I don't know how, but you really need to "measure" the crankcase pressure to determine if you really can stop oil from leaking! New gaskets will not prevent oil leaks from returning in a few months if the crankcase pressure is excessive due to massive blow by.

The Oil Separator PCV Reed Valve is the key. Most all reed valve(s) on the port of the Oil Separator's port is baked and/or gone. This tiny flap must be "flappable" (technical term LOL) to vent the crankcase pressure appropriately. Old engines tend to develop a lot of crankcase pressure, i.e. blow by, which will blow out gaskets even blow out new gaskets. The Reed allow the pressure to escape while keeping the hoses from plugging up for awhile. With an open Reed port, the hoses will quickly pull up with gunk and then the gaskets become the vent for crank case pressure.

The CTS Caddy engine (I think it's the CTS) is the same as ours, but the top end is a different design. They incorporate an actual PCV device into the top housing which also plugs up. The connected Oil Separator PCV module is identical to ours. Which leads me to believe... why can't we add an real PCV to our system? Ideally, a PCV could be added (some how some way) on the large hose between the Oil Separator Module and the pass over plastic bridge. Providing there is room to install it.

I MUST remind you to only do one thing at a time. If you monkey with too many repairs at once... you will get entangled in a never ending oh fuk diagnostic H-E-L-L! Besides, if you start the project in March and finish it September, I don't know about you, But I would NOT know how to reassemble everything. I used plastic bags for every major component's bolts and I labeled them with what size, where they went and what tool is needed to install them and how tight(etc). Had I not done this I would have never gotten it back together (multiple times).
Rj 2000 LS2,

Thank you for reminding me of those important matters. And if fdryer is reading; you also (I will do compression tests prior to pulling the heads as you suggested).

I strongly believe in my previous posts; I did a great job at cleaning up and replacing the PCV crankcase system w/ hoses. If you figure out how to mod our L81 to allow for better PCV pressure control; please let me know. I do not plan on being the Guinea pig on that matter.

Regarding the Timing Belt and anything I may encounter working my way to to the Valve Cover Gaskets; Factory Service Manual calls them "Intake Manifold Gaskets"; very glad to know they are the same. (I also did extra reading since we talked and the Factory Service Manual says that Valve Stems are needed for complete oil leak stops [and probably due to the fact every gasket in-between gets replaced, like you also mentioned for the target end gasket; everything must be re-assembled and gaskets replaced.]

Do you think these Clamp Pliers are over-kill? I have the timing belt kit; which has the wedge plastic tool. I just want to be sure I don't get this wrong.

They are curved jaw set (Like $50 bucks though and that's a ton for me).
Here is what I am up against at the moment:

Curved Jaw Set - Amazon


Let me know if you can! Have a good day everyone!

~ Best Regards,

Brandon Kastning
WE THE PEOPLE ONLINE
wethepeopleonline.com
U.S. Const. Art. VI., Clause 2, 3 (1787).
...
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” - John 3:16 (KJV)
BrandonKastning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2021, 02:54 PM   #20
lrbraner
Member
lrbraner is a jewel in the roughlrbraner is a jewel in the roughlrbraner is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Ft. Wayne, IN
Posts: 298

2002 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
2003 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 (L81/3.0L V6) - Pre-Question for Head Gasket DIY Replacement

What would you use " Vise Grips " for ???
...
2002 L300 Sedan
2003 LW300 Wagon
2005 L300 Sedan
lrbraner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
head gasket change, l300


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Water Pump Replacement (Coolant Question) BrandonKastning L-Series Tech 3 10-10-2020 04:40 PM
2001 sl2 head gasket tmo95 S-Series Tech 1 01-29-2014 08:09 PM
2001 Saturn Sc2 blown head gasket repair cost? tiama S-Series Tech 0 11-28-2010 08:15 PM
L300 Head Gasket Question dnrc L-Series Tech 1 04-04-2008 10:51 PM
1995 saturn sl2 - head gasket? replacement Woogeroo S-Series Tech 12 12-16-2005 07:18 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:12 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.