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Old 09-14-2018, 04:05 PM   #1
odiaz1831
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Default Saturn Help in Chicago?

Hey guys, this is kind of a long shot. Im a student taking some automotive classes. I have been learning a ton from this forum on how and why cars work. I have an 01 Sc2 that im certain needs a new valve body and a tightened input shaft nut. While im certain I could do this by myself, this is my ONLY car and I need it to at least last a year or two more. Plus I dont have a garage, and this isnt something I would like to do on the street. I was wondering if anyone would be willing to watch and teach me how to officially do it? Ive asked my teachers in school, and they all said yeah, BUT to use the school garage on a personal vehicle, I need to be pretty much finishing my degree. Id be willing to drive to you and have everything ready (might need a torque ratchet). Sadly since im in school, im pretty broke, I will gladly order some pizza and give you a few cold ones if anyone would be willing. Thanks in advance guys!

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Old 09-14-2018, 08:11 PM   #2
jpsuli
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Default Re: Saturn Help in Chicago?

Unfortunately I've moved to MSP, but come to Chicago frequently. If no one takes your offer I can probably help about Thanksgiving. I've taken the valve body out of mine twice but have yet to do an input shaft nut.

Where abouts in Chicago?

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Old 09-15-2018, 12:00 AM   #3
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Default Re: Saturn Help in Chicago?

Im around the Pilsen Southside, but id be willing to move around the city. I also find myself around Cicero and the Berwyn area a lot because of school.

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Old 09-16-2018, 10:28 AM   #4
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Default Re: Saturn Help in Chicago?

What are the symptoms of the transmission? Like JPsuli, I have done two valve bodies, and I just hit 202,000 miles last night.

The input shaft nut has very distinct symptoms, and on OBD-II systems, it will generally set a P0732 DTC because it causes issues with Reverse, which is also the same clutch pack as 2nd Gear.

The two main areas of wear are your Pressure Regulator Valve bore, and the Boost Pressure Valve.

Once again, each area has specific symptoms, that will be telling of what repairs need to be made.

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Old 09-16-2018, 04:43 PM   #5
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Default Re: Saturn Help in Chicago?

Right. I get slam in reverse when the engine has warmed up. I get hard shifts going into to 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. it doesnt reverse slam if I start the car up in the morning after a whole night of it being off, and immediately shift into reverse. Instead its more a faint normal shift, but does sound like something is lightly tapping. I read to replace the valvebody and then tighten the input shaft nut.

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Old 09-16-2018, 08:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: Saturn Help in Chicago?

I used to get the delayed reverse, occasional slam and all forward gear slams when it got up to temp, extremely bad in the heat. Replaced the VB for my dad with one from specialforces (member on here), with the sonnax fix, and it worked perfectly. I did not touch the input shaft nut, it still has a 1-2 second delay to go into reverse but no slams.

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Old 09-16-2018, 10:07 PM   #7
odiaz1831
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Default Re: Saturn Help in Chicago?

Oh i hear you man. Im hoping mine dowant require the input shaft nut, but im preparing for the worst. The car has been slamming aince my sil got it at 90k. Gave it to me at 120k and i already added 7k miles.

Last edited by odiaz1831; 09-16-2018 at 10:18 PM..

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Old 09-19-2018, 02:28 PM   #8
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Default Re: Saturn Help in Chicago?

The immediate slam into reverse is a symptom of a worn pressure regulator valve bore or sticking pressure regulator valve. Reverse requires the highest line pressure to engage. When the fluid is cold and you just started it up, the engine is revved higher and pressure is higher despite internal valve leakage, so no slam.

The slamming in the forward gears is often the result of a bad line pressure solenoid and/or a sticking line pressure regulator valve. This will NOT always set a DTC in the PCM.

Special Forces does the Boost Pressure valve and testes the solenoids/Pressure Regulator Valve when he rebuilds them.

Ken Partin does the Pressure Regulator Valve and tests the boost pressure valve.

Central Valve Bodies does Both upgrades.

I recommend contacting Ken Partin or Central.

I don't know how long Donny has been doing them, at Central, but my current VB is from them and working great.

My last one worked amazingly well and was from SF, and he has over 10 years of experience rebuilding them. I had a DELAY before slamming into reverse, though. So, my symptoms were a little different.

My car gets abused, because I do not drive it "gently" and it does go to the drag strip a couple times a year. I expect VB replacements to become a common "staple" over the years of owning this car, simply because of how severely I drive it, despite being meticulous with the fluid service change intervals.

If your input shaft nut is loose, you will not have reverse, unless you rev it up to almost 4k, and then it will slam harshly into reverse or barely want to move.

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Old 09-19-2018, 03:49 PM   #9
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Default Re: Saturn Help in Chicago?

Among the many things affecting xmission operation (engine, wiring, pcm, xmission valve body, etc), harsh shifts seems to point to a faulty pressure control solenoid. More on this below. To further confuse your steep learning curve, I can send pdfs explaining electronically controlled xmissions. Files are specific to your model from service manuals. Private message me with an email address allowing file attachments. Usually when harsh shifts occur, the default program is to resort to high pressure shifting to protect against damage to slipping clutches. Under normal conditions, shifts occur smoothly as shift pressures are modulated, neither high nor low with many sensors used as feedback to make automatics effortless - electronics monitors and controls the shift solenoids by modulating hydraulic pressures that affects how soft or hard shifts feel. Slushboxes are more than what they were before electronics were adopted otherwise we couldn't have 6/7/8/9/10 speed automatics.

The least expensive diagnostic procedure is to examine the main electrical connector to the xmission for loose, burned, discolored, melted terminals. Search for procedures others have done in removing battery, battery tray and other stuff to have clear access to the valve body before attempting this yourself or with help. Snapshots in some threads. Video from others on youtube. This can help prepare you. A brief description from service manuals about solenoid control valves in xmissions;

Solenoid Control Valve

There are five solenoids which have normally open valves. With no voltage applied to the terminals, a return spring holds the valve open and the solenoid allows oil to flow from the supply port to the control pressure port. When current is applied through the coil, the magnetic field is energized pulling the sliding armature against the return spring. When the armature is in this position, the valve is closed, the pressure supply port is blocked and the control port is connected to the exhaust port.

The solenoids are located in the transaxle valvebody and may be completely energized (closed), de-energized (open), or pulse width modulated (PWM). When a solenoid is being modulated, the valve opens and closes up to 70 times per second. This allows a percentage of the oil pressure available at the supply port to pass to the control port. The actual percentage is determined by an electrically controlled duty cycle from the powertrain control module (PCM). This is the ratio of the length of time the valve remains open (pulse width) to the total length of time of each cycle (one on and off cycle). These solenoids are the:

Pressure Control (PC) Solenoid
Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) Solenoid
Shift Solenoid 2
Shift Solenoid 3
Shift Solenoid 4
Under normal transaxle operation, the PCM will only pulse width modulate the TCC and PC solenoids. The shift solenoids will be either On or Off.


I suggest the least expensive diagnostics (free on your time), finding out which way may be the least expensive repair (replacing the pressure control solenoid?) before wholesale replacement of the valve body ($$$). The best case scenario might be loose wiring connections to the valve body. Worse case scenario is replacing the valve body.

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Old 09-20-2018, 10:46 AM   #10
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Default Re: Saturn Help in Chicago?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
The immediate slam into reverse is a symptom of a worn pressure regulator valve bore or sticking pressure regulator valve. Reverse requires the highest line pressure to engage. When the fluid is cold and you just started it up, the engine is revved higher and pressure is higher despite internal valve leakage, so no slam.

The slamming in the forward gears is often the result of a bad line pressure solenoid and/or a sticking line pressure regulator valve. This will NOT always set a DTC in the PCM.

Special Forces does the Boost Pressure valve and testes the solenoids/Pressure Regulator Valve when he rebuilds them.

Ken Partin does the Pressure Regulator Valve and tests the boost pressure valve.

Central Valve Bodies does Both upgrades.

I recommend contacting Ken Partin or Central.

I don't know how long Donny has been doing them, at Central, but my current VB is from them and working great.

My last one worked amazingly well and was from SF, and he has over 10 years of experience rebuilding them. I had a DELAY before slamming into reverse, though. So, my symptoms were a little different.

My car gets abused, because I do not drive it "gently" and it does go to the drag strip a couple times a year. I expect VB replacements to become a common "staple" over the years of owning this car, simply because of how severely I drive it, despite being meticulous with the fluid service change intervals.

If your input shaft nut is loose, you will not have reverse, unless you rev it up to almost 4k, and then it will slam harshly into reverse or barely want to move.
I do have a delayed reverse, but it also slams. Is this still indicating a damaged pressure regulator valve? I do notice my engine revs high, not 4k high, but it revs farther than idle and pretty high up to shift into reverse.

Is the valve body considered a sort of maintenance item on an automatic tranny? Or with normal city wear, should it last thelife of the vehicle at this point?

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Old 09-20-2018, 10:48 AM   #11
odiaz1831
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Default Re: Saturn Help in Chicago?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Among the many things affecting xmission operation (engine, wiring, pcm, xmission valve body, etc), harsh shifts seems to point to a faulty pressure control solenoid. More on this below. To further confuse your steep learning curve, I can send pdfs explaining electronically controlled xmissions. Files are specific to your model from service manuals. Private message me with an email address allowing file attachments. Usually when harsh shifts occur, the default program is to resort to high pressure shifting to protect against damage to slipping clutches. Under normal conditions, shifts occur smoothly as shift pressures are modulated, neither high nor low with many sensors used as feedback to make automatics effortless - electronics monitors and controls the shift solenoids by modulating hydraulic pressures that affects how soft or hard shifts feel. Slushboxes are more than what they were before electronics were adopted otherwise we couldn't have 6/7/8/9/10 speed automatics.

The least expensive diagnostic procedure is to examine the main electrical connector to the xmission for loose, burned, discolored, melted terminals. Search for procedures others have done in removing battery, battery tray and other stuff to have clear access to the valve body before attempting this yourself or with help. Snapshots in some threads. Video from others on youtube. This can help prepare you. A brief description from service manuals about solenoid control valves in xmissions;

Solenoid Control Valve

There are five solenoids which have normally open valves. With no voltage applied to the terminals, a return spring holds the valve open and the solenoid allows oil to flow from the supply port to the control pressure port. When current is applied through the coil, the magnetic field is energized pulling the sliding armature against the return spring. When the armature is in this position, the valve is closed, the pressure supply port is blocked and the control port is connected to the exhaust port.

The solenoids are located in the transaxle valvebody and may be completely energized (closed), de-energized (open), or pulse width modulated (PWM). When a solenoid is being modulated, the valve opens and closes up to 70 times per second. This allows a percentage of the oil pressure available at the supply port to pass to the control port. The actual percentage is determined by an electrically controlled duty cycle from the powertrain control module (PCM). This is the ratio of the length of time the valve remains open (pulse width) to the total length of time of each cycle (one on and off cycle). These solenoids are the:

Pressure Control (PC) Solenoid
Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) Solenoid
Shift Solenoid 2
Shift Solenoid 3
Shift Solenoid 4
Under normal transaxle operation, the PCM will only pulse width modulate the TCC and PC solenoids. The shift solenoids will be either On or Off.


I suggest the least expensive diagnostics (free on your time), finding out which way may be the least expensive repair (replacing the pressure control solenoid?) before wholesale replacement of the valve body ($$$). The best case scenario might be loose wiring connections to the valve body. Worse case scenario is replacing the valve body.
Thank you for the info, im actually going to print this out and stick it with my school notes. Ill pm you.

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Old 09-20-2018, 03:11 PM   #12
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Default Re: Saturn Help in Chicago?

Quote:
Originally Posted by odiaz1831 View Post
I do notice my engine revs high, not 4k high, but it revs farther than idle and pretty high up to shift into reverse.
When you first start the car in PARK, how high does it idle?

A very high idle can contribute to the feeling of harsh shift/slam into first or reverse and the high idle might be something simple like an ECTS

Where does the needle on the temp gauge sit when the car is warmed up?

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Old 09-20-2018, 05:36 PM   #13
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Default Re: Saturn Help in Chicago?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alordofchaos View Post
When you first start the car in PARK, how high does it idle?

A very high idle can contribute to the feeling of harsh shift/slam into first or reverse and the high idle might be something simple like an ECTS

Where does the needle on the temp gauge sit when the car is warmed up?
Car starts on arpund 1200 RPM from a fresh start. Idle drops to 900rpm after warming up. Temp gauge sits a bit past 1/4. Ects was changed to brass tip when i got the car.

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Old 09-24-2018, 07:56 PM   #14
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Default Re: Saturn Help in Chicago?

Quote:
Originally Posted by odiaz1831 View Post
I do have a delayed reverse, but it also slams. Is this still indicating a damaged pressure regulator valve? I do notice my engine revs high, not 4k high, but it revs farther than idle and pretty high up to shift into reverse.

Is the valve body considered a sort of maintenance item on an automatic tranny? Or with normal city wear, should it last thelife of the vehicle at this point?
You may need to contact Special Forces to get your VB, or contact Central Valve Body.

For delayed & slamming reverse, the boost pressure valve is likely the culprit. Reverse requires the highest line pressure. Revving the engine spins the torque converter faster, which increases line pressure because the oil pumps are mechanically driven in these transmissions.

You may need to tighten the input shaft nut, with the mileage added to it with all the slamming.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=77-TW55GJ3s

Here is a video on the input shaft nut procedures.

Start with the valve body. Special Forces will send you easy-to-use instructions, is great to work with, ships via USPS, and accepts payment via PayPal. He will advise you that the car will slam gears until it relearns for the new internals and fluid routing(part of the Sonnax rebuild requires the VB to be drilled differently than stock). This is normal and will not hurt the transmission.

Start with the Valve Body. If you need instructions for the relearn, we can get that to you, as well. There are SPECIFIC instructions for the relearn based on which engine and transmission you have.

...
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Old 09-24-2018, 08:02 PM   #15
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Default Re: Saturn Help in Chicago?

Valve body replacement is usually a "one-time" thing on these cars, because the Sonnax kits permanently solve the design flaws of the original Saturn design.

The reason I am using up valve bodies more frequently is definitely due to how I abuse my Twin Cam. Those few, that race Saturns with auto, often keep spare valve bodies on-hand. The design of the transmissions(both the manual amd the automatic) are actually fairly robust.

The auto can only handle to about 200 HP engine builds, because it is the weaker of the two transmissions, but a stock Saturn only has between 85-124 HP. So, the engine doesn't make even close to the power or torque needed to really rip the transmission internals apart.

The stock manual trans can handle big turbo build up to about 400-450 HP.

GM actually did try(and for the most part succeeded) to make these cars as close to "indestructible" as one can probably engineer a car.

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Old 09-24-2018, 08:25 PM   #16
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Default Re: Saturn Help in Chicago?

I am sorry to see you are not allowed to work on your own cars at your tech school. When I took electronics 1983-85 the auto mech and body guys were all looking for cars to work on. I have a saturn SL2 for 18 years. My experience:
-slow going into reverse and then about two weeks later, clunk into reverse, you need a valve body change out. Don't keep driving it as you will loosen the input nut.
-clunking in all gears, line pressure solenoid faulty or wiring cable on top of transmission loose. Had both happen
-torque converter won't lock up, TCC solenoid faulty, replaced solenoid.
-clunk going into 4th gear, 4th gear solenoid swapped
-pulling away at idle during first start, had to keep foot on brake to keep it stopped, issue in D and Reverse, issue goes away once engine warmed up. Valve Body Swap.
My transmission is all original except what I listed above. It still shifts perfect. My odometer is at 450,600km.

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