SaturnFans.com
saturnfans.com - classifieds - forums - webmail


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn L-Series > L-Series Tech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-22-2020, 08:58 AM   #1
mahatmakjeeves
Junior Member
mahatmakjeeves is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 28

2000 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
Default 2000 Saturn LW2, the wagon with the V-6, shows many error codes

2000 Saturn LW2, the wagon with the V-6, shows many error codes

The car has under 19,000 miles. It was my mom's. It is parked outside. It had been parked since September 2018, when, unexpectedly, I couldn't get it to start. The battery was fine. The engine would act as if it was just about to start, but it woudn't run. The car was parked on a slight incline, with the front facing uphill and the fuel tank on the lower end. I think I said something about that here. I'll see if I can find that.

About four of us pushed the car up the slight incline in November 2019. Out of the blue, I did get it to start. I was going to take it for a drive, but when I put my foot on the brake pedal, this time with force, the pedal went to the floor. I was able to move the running car, using the parking brake, into a level spot where I coul install new lines. I had a hard time getting it to start. I had to pour raw gas into the air filter to force a good fuel-air mixture into the intake manifold. Finally, the car got to the point where I was able to jumpstart it once a week, just to make sure that it would start.

I finished that last week. On Wednesday, I put in a known-good battery with an October 2019 date code. This time, starting the engine was troublesome. It stalled out once or twice, and there was misfiring. The idle went up and down. After I while it stabilized, and I drove the car around the block that evening to check my work and to see if anything would be needed for a Virginia safety inspection.

The "service engine soon" light was on, as it has been during my weekly jumpstarts. I took a chance and drove to AutoZone on Thursday without the safety inspection to run a scan. After a while, the scanner (orange; maybe an Actron?) displayed the message "error." The clerk said to try shorting the battery cables together (obviously, after first disconnecting them from the battery) apparently to discharge any stray voltage stored in a capacitor somewhere. He also suggested that I check my fuses. I figured I would try a scan later, after a safety inspection.

The car passed its Virginia safety inspection on Friday. I drove from the inspection station to the same AutoZone. They handed me another scanner, an Innova 3030f, maybe. They said the other scanner, the one I had used the day before, was broken. This scanner came back with no error codes. The clerk said that meant that I had no error codes to report and that some driving would get the light to go out. I put in some gas. Back home, I checked the owner's manual. It says that driving around for a few days might get the light to go out. The car runs just fine.

Saturday night, I was running errands. I took the Saturn. It ran flawlessly. My trip took me past an Advance Auto. They handed me a large Actron, bigger than a smartphone and about the size of a Kindle Fire. After a while, it came back with 47 error codes. Seventeen were TCM codes, four were ECM codes, and 26 were OBDII/EOBD codes.

If you're curious, the TCM codes were P0604, P0606, P0716, P0717, P0742, P0752, P0756, U2104, U2105, P1815, P1816, P1817, P1843, P1847, P1860, P1795, and U2103. The ECM codes were P0300 (misfire in general), P0301 (cylinder 1 misfire), P0303 (cylinder 3 misfire), and P1780. The OBDII/EOBD codes were P0502, P0503, P0562, P0563, P0601, P0602, P0603, P0606, P0741, P0751, P0757, U2104 (again), P1621, P1779, P1833, P1842, P1843, P1845, P1887, P1795, P1780, P0300 (again), P1816, P1817, P1818, and U2103 (again).

I'm taking those results with a grain of salt. I mean, the car runs well. If all those codes were right, it wouldn't do anything. The Actron scanner at Advance Auto gave me the option of resetting the codes. I think that meant "in the car's system" rather than "in the Actron scanner." I kind of wish I had done that, just to zero things out. I have yet to unplug the car's computer to see if a reboot will change things.

I assume the car will start and run today, as it had started and run the day before. If I try for another scan today, I think I'll reset the codes. The connections to the battery are clean and secure. The car will need, by the end of May (thanks to a 60-day extension courtesy of coronavirus), an emissions inspection.

Any thoughts, other than, "that's a lot of words"?

Thank you in advance for your help.
mahatmakjeeves is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 03-22-2020, 10:05 AM   #2
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 43,914
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2000 Saturn LW2, the wagon with the V-6, shows many error codes

If your state requires an emissions inspection, the check engine light remaining on usually means your car fails inspection. If an inspection station plugs into the OBD II port, they see the same error codes. Disconnecting battery negative does the same as using a reader to reset error codes. There are no known capacitors large enough to retain a charge in most EFI systems to be concerned about. Removing the ecm fuse, using a reader reset function or battery disconnect accomplishes the same task. If a reset was done, most learn soon enough that emissions inspection fail even when the check engine light is off. Any reset erases error codes and clears stored emissions parameters that were learned, creating a custom baseline of data. Erasing this data basically forces the emissions system back to factory default parameters. The vehicle must be driven for approximately 50 miles at varying speeds in local and highway traffic for the emissions program to relearn new parameters. GM describes this as the drive cycle. Data like the time coolant takes to warm up, O2 sensors detected and outputting signals within a time frame, evaporative system testing, etc. About half a dozen or more self diagnostic checks are automatically performed upon every engine startup. When parameters are learned during driving, they are memorized and compared to programmed data. The comparison determines whether or not specific data falls within a range or outside of it. New data falling outside of a range means failure of one or more parameters. Any one failure triggers the check engine light and stores the error for retrieval with a reader. If a reset turns off the cel, emissions inspection will detect this as they see emissions monitors in a not ready status. Most readers will display this too. If the inspection station sees a not ready status, the car falls inspection. Most inspectors will inform you of it and may advise you to drive the car over next few days and return for re-inspection. A reader informing you of emissions monitors in a not ready status is telling to not to have an inspection done until several driving cycles are preformed until a ready status is displayed on the next reading.

If the check engine light remains on, don't bother trying emissions inspection. You'll need to search each error code definition then determine which are false and work on the positive errors. Emissions error codes are universal but subtle differences between manufacturers interpretations of the same code can mislead anyone. Using a GM list of error codes is best, usually from GMs service manual. Online service manual access can be from alldata or Mitchell with reasonable subscription fees. Several third party sites are very good for error codes, definitions and suggestions for troubleshooting.

Some states will allow one or two error codes and pass emissions inspection. Check your state DMV for info.

Most generic readers only decode emissions errors. Better readers decode manufacturer specific error codes and display history codes. History codes don't have dates attached to them and may confuse anyone unfamiliar with separating current from past errors.
...
VCX NANO
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2020, 01:46 PM   #3
mahatmakjeeves
Junior Member
mahatmakjeeves is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 28

2000 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
Default Re: 2000 Saturn LW2, the wagon with the V-6, shows many error codes

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
If your state requires an emissions inspection, the check engine light remaining on usually means your car fails inspection. If an inspection station plugs into the OBD II port, they see the same error codes. Disconnecting battery negative does the same as using a reader to reset error codes. There are no known capacitors large enough to retain a charge in most EFI systems to be concerned about. Removing the ecm fuse, using a reader reset function or battery disconnect accomplishes the same task. If a reset was done, most learn soon enough that emissions inspection fail even when the check engine light is off.

{snip}
Thank you for the insight. I had the battery disconnected this morning, so there was another reset.

I'll keep driving it. I did have until March 31 to take the test, but the Virginia DMV is giving everyone another 60 days to renew registrations or get safety inspections. That gives me until May 31 to drive the car around. In Virginia, not passing emissions means you can't renew the registration, at least where I live. It isn't like that in most of Virginia.

Anectode: about fifteen years ago, I was driving my mom around in the car. The "service engine soon" light came on. We would be heading past the Saturn dealer, so we went that way. The technician came out with the scanner. It handed him some sort of code to the effect that the transmission had gone haywire. I don't know what the code, but it was something of that level of seriousness. This was a car that was then a daily driver. He said he had learned not to pay any attention to that, and that most likely replacing the battery would take care of things. I bought a battery at Autozone, and the technician's prediction proved correct.

In 2016, the warning light was also on. For fun, I ran code scans at a variety of car parts stores -- Autozone, Advance, Pep Boys. I never got the same array of codes twice, but one code did come up every time. It was for the upper oxygen sensor in the front cylinder bank. That's the one that's the easiest of the four to replace. I got a Bosch sensor at Autozone and, IIRC, borrowed their socket to remove the old one and install the new one.

That did the trick. No more warning light. I passed the test.

I'm so glad I got those brake lines repaired that this is just minor stuff.

Thank you again for the reply.

My car seems to have its share of electrical issues.
mahatmakjeeves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2020, 03:30 PM   #4
Rj 2000 LS2
Member
Rj 2000 LS2 is a jewel in the roughRj 2000 LS2 is a jewel in the roughRj 2000 LS2 is a jewel in the roughRj 2000 LS2 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: NE Wisconsin
Posts: 351

2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2000 Saturn LW2, the wagon with the V-6, shows many error codes

I know what the problem is.. you live in Virginia! I would pack up while the Saturn is running and move to WV where you still have rights!
Rj 2000 LS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2020, 07:58 PM   #5
mahatmakjeeves
Junior Member
mahatmakjeeves is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 28

2000 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
Default Re: 2000 Saturn LW2, the wagon with the V-6, shows many error codes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
I would pack up while the Saturn is running and move to WV where you still have rights!
I suspect there are some standards for keeping a motor vehicle on the road in West Virginia. Still, I do think about these things.

I drove the car again today. It runs just fine. I also ran a code scan at the same Advance Auto, using the same scan tool. There were still forty-something error codes.
mahatmakjeeves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2020, 08:12 PM   #6
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 43,914
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2000 Saturn LW2, the wagon with the V-6, shows many error codes

mahatmakjeeves, I wouldn't blame you or anyone ignoring my long winded replies. It's enough torture for me to proof read my writings for coherency and grammatical errors much less expect anyone to read thru the entirety of these meanderings.

As vehicle owners, I have come to regard vehicles as 'please don't leave me unused for weeks at a time'. The surface rust many disc brake rotors exhibit from overnight moisture/humidity/dew is one example. Not detrimental for vehicles used every day. If left this way for weeks unused, surface rust can eat into rotors to cause premature wear and possible degradation of braking efficiency. The only vehicles not prone to disc rotor surface rust might be very high end vehicles with carbon brakes since carbon mixed with other exotic materials are impervious to moisture. Vehicles were made to be used and not sit around as lawn ornaments.

There are many issues occurring at random when leaving a vehicle unused for long periods of time. Some cars attract local animals to create a nest in the engine bay. Snakes slither in for warmth overnight. Other pests chew on wiring, destroying connections. Corrosion begins from lack of use.

An overall examination of the engine bay may reveal either normal wear and tear or uncover issues that may create inexplicable problems. Hopefully returning this car back to everyday use shakes off any cobwebs interfering with normal engine running. Worse case scenario; every electrical connection may have to be examined and cleaned of corrosion, remaining error codes addressed to find possible commonality or if multiple errors points to several issues, each one addressed to pare them down until emissions monitors display a ready status prior to emissions inspection.
...
VCX NANO
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2020, 11:52 PM   #7
Rj 2000 LS2
Member
Rj 2000 LS2 is a jewel in the roughRj 2000 LS2 is a jewel in the roughRj 2000 LS2 is a jewel in the roughRj 2000 LS2 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: NE Wisconsin
Posts: 351

2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2000 Saturn LW2, the wagon with the V-6, shows many error codes

There seems to be an epidemic of code diarrhea with no common core. No pun intended. However, if a Saturn is tossing codes like seagulls in the sky over a landfill, there has to be a common denominator. Look for things that are in common, like a good solid ground or perhaps the battery connections.

The possibility that all these codes are firing and every sensor/part is misbehaving/bad is absurd. There could be RF interference occurring because some connection is sparking and/or arcing and these interference signals are being interpreted as data. The fact the engine is running fine means the codes are erroneous at best.

Perhaps there is a conspiracy a foot where every old car gets flushed with codes to prevent it from passing vehicle tests. There is such a thing as "planned obsolescence's" in electronic gear. Back in the 50's and 60's electronics were built to last forever. The manufacturers quickly learned their mistake. Later electronic gear was designed with an expiration date or at least a date of End Of Life where they would no longer be supported.

It was after this time that all new electronics bought came with a "toe tag" (date of when service ended) and some electronic were designed to fail in so many years. Because electronics blended with the internal combustion engine for efficiency or whatever... these "toe tags" expiration's don't mean the engine is junk. It simply means we garage mechanics need to undo and/or remove the toe tags!

Although the electronics on a Saturn appears to be complicated, it really is quite simple. With back-buttering techniques and a good oscilloscope we can find the solutions we seek.

I was just shatting you about the Virginia to WV stuff, even though it is a good recommendation before covid-19 becomes lesser of two evils.

My best suggestion is to continue to drive the vehicle and stop asking/looking for code readers to force feed codes. Sometimes problems only exist if we think to hard or ask too many questions. Base your vehicle's performance on first hand experience and tell the test nazi's... the vehicle is running perfectly. You could even get someone to perform the tests for you and insist that no code reading is necessary. Tell them the interface is junk, that is not illegal. Connect it to a sucker machine and if it passes... yer done! There is still a 5th Amendment which protects you and your vehicle against Self-Incrimination! Codes are not always true. We are learning that all too well!

There are WAY too many possible causes of erroneous data. An alternator can be electronically noisy, bad ground or bad battery connections, electrostatic discharge, degraded shielding in cables, even a partially illing incandescent bulb can produce RF interference. There is something which is causing the code diarrhea. It seems to happening quite often. Problem is, the engine is controlled via a "computer"... Junk in = Junk out. BUT, remember the engine is running fine... so you have to ignore the erroneous data codes because if appears the "computer" is ignoring it too. Perhaps the issue is with the systems tossing the codes? Or maybe it is planned obsolescence at work!

Disclaimer: I am drunk... end of disclaimer. You are now updated!
Rj 2000 LS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2020, 09:43 AM   #8
floridasl22002
Senior Member
floridasl22002 is a splendid one to beholdfloridasl22002 is a splendid one to beholdfloridasl22002 is a splendid one to beholdfloridasl22002 is a splendid one to beholdfloridasl22002 is a splendid one to beholdfloridasl22002 is a splendid one to beholdfloridasl22002 is a splendid one to behold
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 1,498

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2000 Saturn LW2, the wagon with the V-6, shows many error codes

Given the car was parked up in Nov 2018 and not even looked at until Nov 2019, that's a pretty good chance the gas will be bad, not just in the tank but throughout the fuel system. You could have gummed up injectors, clogged fuel filter as well.

You need to get all that bad gas out of the system, either by flushing clean everything OR putting in new gas, which will dilute it and hope the new will help get rid of the old. You could also pour in some good quality fuel system cleaner to boot.

Vehicles that are parked up and left for a good while can become home to unwanted guests, namely rodents. They love a good feast on wiring. You need to check carefully all around the car including underneath that haven't had guests and that no wiring has been damaged. If it has, this will play havoc with the electronics as well.

One may say that a 20 year old car with less than 19,000 miles is like winning the lottery. You may need a lottery win to get it running to how it should be. As the car ages, so do all the components. Rubber will go brittle and begin to disintegrate. You have rubber on your fuel lines, your suspension and inside the engine with O rings. Cars that are sat for prolonged periods should have fluids changed to ensure that you don't get internal corrosion. That's why boat owners do special prep to their boat engines, etc, when they get them ready for winter. Cars just get parked up and then we wonder why they are troublesome after sitting for a year or so.

If the car is running again, but intermittently with codes, then you need to get some serious miles on it to loosen everything up.
floridasl22002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2020, 05:05 PM   #9
Rj 2000 LS2
Member
Rj 2000 LS2 is a jewel in the roughRj 2000 LS2 is a jewel in the roughRj 2000 LS2 is a jewel in the roughRj 2000 LS2 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: NE Wisconsin
Posts: 351

2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2000 Saturn LW2, the wagon with the V-6, shows many error codes

Yeah, you definitely need to break that engine in! Only 19k miles!
Rj 2000 LS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2020, 09:45 PM   #10
mahatmakjeeves
Junior Member
mahatmakjeeves is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 28

2000 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
Default Re: 2000 Saturn LW2, the wagon with the V-6, shows many error codes

One more odd thing: wow, are those instrument panel lights bright now. Back before the current troubles started (i.e., 2018) the dimmer control was "noisy" -- like the volume control on an old radio. When one of those got dirty, you had a hard time getting the volume where you wanted it. I used to have trouble keeping the instrument panel lights on. At best they were dim. At worst, they would go off.

Now the dimmer wheel has no effect. The lights are on all the way. I can't turn them down. This adds to my suspicion that there's a faulty ground somewhere in all those wiring harnesses.

Thanks again to all.
mahatmakjeeves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2020, 01:51 AM   #11
pierrot
Master Member
pierrot has much to be proud ofpierrot has much to be proud ofpierrot has much to be proud ofpierrot has much to be proud ofpierrot has much to be proud ofpierrot has much to be proud ofpierrot has much to be proud ofpierrot has much to be proud ofpierrot has much to be proud of
 
pierrot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Glendora, CA
Posts: 3,825
 

2000 L-Series 2.2L Sedan
Default Re: 2000 Saturn LW2, the wagon with the V-6, shows many error codes

FWIW, here's my story about the pathetic factory installed dimmer switches. My hunch is that your dimmer switch failed in the full brightness position, but it's only a hunch.

Our factory installed dimmer switch wheels were built poorly - they were just a tiny step above being junk. The dimmer wheel couldn't hold its position and as a result the brightness level was erratic while driving my car. If I hit a bad bump in the road or a pothole it could change the position of the dimmer wheel - that's how loose and how little resistance the wheel had against it in my car's dimmer switch. I found myself having to press the wheel while turning it so that its rheostat - or whatever it is that's inside of the switch - would adjust evenly. If I failed to do that then I had no way of knowing what level of brightness would be presented to me. It could've been nothing or full brightness even when nowhere near either location on the wheel!

I corrected this problem as of last January. I was at a Pick-Your-Part wrecking yard in L A and found a switch off of a later model L-Series car (with the same interior color) and having a wheel that turned better than what I had. The donor car's dimmer wheel showed some resistance when turned so I was reasonably certain that it would work better than what I had. I installed it that evening or the next day. Happily, my assumption proved correct. The brightness can now be set accurately at any time and remain in place until I move it again. (I set the brightness as low as is reasonably possible for night driving. It prolongs the life of the dash and center console lighting.)
...
333,000 miles - Holy canolli!
A leftist, deep-stater will get the nomination for POTUS. What follows if he gets his way? A bad economy, weak military, increased terrorism and a greater RED CHINA.

Last edited by pierrot; 03-25-2020 at 01:58 AM.
pierrot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2000 SW2 Fast Idle - error codes P0507 tothemax S-Series Tech 15 08-07-2016 09:56 PM
2000 Saturn L2,3.0 liter engine shows P0121 code rlphillips9002 L-Series Tech 6 07-13-2013 12:46 PM
2000 SC2 with multiple error codes srtmedic S-Series General 4 09-06-2011 05:34 PM
2000 L-Series 4cyl- How to get Error Codes skippy_1314 L-Series Tech 3 12-06-2007 04:12 PM
2000 SL2 error codes JohnASmith S-Series Tech 16 01-21-2005 05:25 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:10 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.