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Old 08-05-2006, 05:20 PM   #1
David 93 SL2m
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Happy Diesel Saturns!

I'd love to buy a Saturn with a diesel engine!

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Old 08-05-2006, 05:52 PM   #2
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Default Re: Diesel Saturns!

GM has a 1.7L diesel engine designed by Isuzu. It's named "Circle L", 4EE2. It is used in the Opel Astra, and Honda in Europe. Manufactured in Poland.

The 4EE2 produces 74 hp at 4400 rpm and 122 lbs at 1800 rpm

This must the diesel engine that GM trades to Honda so we can get the 3.5L in our VUE's.

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Old 08-05-2006, 06:40 PM   #3
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Default Re: Diesel Saturns!

Heck, I'd love to BUILD a Saturn with a diesel! Been researching the idea of a VW TDI into an S-series (namely my '95 SW2). 100hp/177ft-lbs torque (stock, the aftermarket chips will bump this up by a good amount) with 50+mpg in a car that weighs 500lbs less than a Golf TDI, and will run on biodiesel or used vegetable oil...LOTS of potential!

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Old 08-06-2006, 03:43 AM   #4
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Default Re: Diesel Saturns!

GM Europe has some diesel engines for passenger cars:

- 1.3 CDTI (up to 90 hp)
- 1.7 CDTI (up to 125 hp)
- 1.9 CDTI (up to 150 hp)
- 2.0 CDTI (It is a new one and will be used for the Chevrolet Captiva and the Opel Antara and delivery 150 hp, surely more in the future, because the 1.9 CDTI had only 100 hp after it was introduced. This engine is the successor of the Fiat based 1.9 CDTI)
- 3.0 V6 CDTI (177 hp)

Also some older, non common rail version and modified CDTIs are available for commercial Vans.

Last edited by Toto; 08-06-2006 at 03:50 AM..

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Old 08-06-2006, 12:34 PM   #5
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Happy Re: Diesel Saturns!

I noticed the last post seemed to focus on horsepower.
  • Compared to gasoline engines, diesel engines have higher compression ratios and tend to produce higher torque at lower RPMs.
  • The gear ratios in the transmissions are slightly different between diesel powered vehicles and gasoline powered vehicles.
  • Although 1 gallon of diesel fuel contains about 17% more energy than 1 gallon of gasoline, diesel costs less to refine than gasoline and therefore motorists typically pay less at the pumps for diesel than for gasoline.
In March 2003 I bought a new 2003 Saturn L200 with the 4-cylinder Ecotec engine and the automatic transmission and drove it for about 20,000 miles. It had all the options except the DVD player (not compatible with the power sunroof). It was a nice car. However the best fuel economy I could average was 29 MPG. To reach that I made smooth accelerations, rarely drove above 60 MPH, maximized use of the cruise control, rarely drove with windows/sunroof open, and used sparingly used the AC system. Overall fuel economy in the mid 20s was more common for me.

In September 2005 I replaced my 2003 L200 with a new 2005.5 Volkswagen Jetta TDI. It currently has almost 14,000 miles on the odometer. Without even trying to get good fuel economy my average fuel economy is always in the 40s - never lower. Typically I average fuel economy in the mid to upper 40s. When I try to get the best average fuel economy, the results are in the 50s and low 60s. After the 5 year / 60,000 miles warranty on the drivetrain expires I'll try biodiesel...

Comparing my Jetta TDI to my L200, the only things I really "lost" were the polymer paneling, the fog lights, and a less frequent fuel filter change interval. But I gained so much more that my only regret would be not buying this vehicle (with a diesel engine) from the start back in March 2003. Since this is a Saturn forum I will keep peace by not listing the ways in which I am happier with my Jetta TDI than I was with my L200. Bottom line is I wish Saturn would offer vehicles with diesel engines!

Oh, and I still love the S-Series. Long live the 1991 - 2002 Saturn S-Series sedans, coupes, and wagons!!!

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Old 08-06-2006, 01:28 PM   #6
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Default Re: Diesel Saturns!

Saturn feels the Hybrid is their answer, but...

Maybe since we're getting Opels from Europe they can include a diesel engine option with the new Astra. The only thing preventing this would be Saturn marketing believing they wouldn't sell enough.

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Old 08-06-2006, 02:34 PM   #7
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Default Re: Diesel Saturns!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyP
Saturn feels the Hybrid is their answer, but...

Maybe since we're getting Opels from Europe they can include a diesel engine option with the new Astra. The only thing preventing this would be Saturn marketing believing they wouldn't sell enough.
I wouldn't say Saturn thinks Hybrids are the answer. I'd say GM is reponding to people's mis-conceptions about the benefits of Hybrid powertrains. Until the new regulations are in place and set in stone I don't see anyone new jumping into the Diesel market in North America. After the dust has settled GM would be stupid to not start offering Diesels in at least a few vehicles. The biggest problem out there is the people that still remeber the Oldsmobile Diesel fiasco. But Olds is dead, Diesel is cleaner than ever before, and the mileage is great. Unfortunately the cost is not much different than gasoline anymore.

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Old 08-12-2006, 03:55 PM   #8
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Default Re: Diesel Saturns!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyP
Saturn feels the Hybrid is their answer, but...

Maybe since we're getting Opels from Europe they can include a diesel engine option with the new Astra. The only thing preventing this would be Saturn marketing believing they wouldn't sell enough.
Wouldn't that be a peach!? Maybe they'd even offer the 1.9L diesel, as a testament to progress toward better MPG's, AND a tribute to the original Satty 1.9L. I'd buy one, and I HATE diesels.

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Old 08-12-2006, 06:54 PM   #9
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Default Re: Diesel Saturns!

I'm sure that Europe will get diesels in their Opel versions of Saturns. Here, it's iffy. You have pollution, reliability and bad smell concerns in the US. So it would be nice, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

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Old 08-12-2006, 09:22 PM   #10
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Default Re: Diesel Saturns!

Actually, modern diesel technology has come a long ways from the disasters that Detroit cranked out in the '70s and '80s. Mercedes Benz ran a production E-class at 140+mph for 30 days and racked up 100K, stopping only for refueling and oil changes every 10K. Audi is running a V10 diesel in a Formula 1 car to test and demonstrate some of their latest technology...600hp and 800lbs of torque, wow! Daimler-Chrysler struck a deal with VW to supply TDI motors for some of their cars as well.

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Old 08-13-2006, 05:33 PM   #11
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Default Re: Diesel Saturns!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uzzy
Unfortunately the cost is not much different than gasoline anymore.
Thats very true, in some places I have seen it cost as much as 87 or even slightly more. What you forget is that you get much better gas mileage. So even though you pay as much as 87 you don't have to fill up nearly as much thus saving money.

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Old 08-13-2006, 05:43 PM   #12
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Thumbs Up Got my vote.

I am all for Diesel GM vehicles especially Saturn's. I would love to get a Saturn Aura with that 150 or 177 HP Diesel. Not only do they get much better gas mileage than a gas engine they are far more reliable.

I have seen the VW Diesels but they are underpowered. For me to buy it would have to get numbers 150+ HP for me to consider. I think Diesel Engines would be great in SUV's since some get terrible gas mileage.

Imagine putting a diesel in the Chevy Tahoe/GMC Yukon and the Saturn Outlook/ GMC Acadia/ Buick Enclave. The Tahoe/Yukon would get well into the 20's MPG and the Outlook/Acadia/Enclave might get as high as the upper 20's and maybe low 30's MPG.

Hybrid's I don't trust and I doubt I will ever own. I am afraid about the reliability so I would not touch one with a 10 foot pole. I think for fuel efficiency, Reliability, and Cost the Diesel is the best way to go.

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Old 08-13-2006, 09:35 PM   #13
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Cool Re: Diesel Saturns!

In my neighborhood diesel is less expensive than low octane gasoline.

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Old 08-14-2006, 12:09 AM   #14
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Default Re: Diesel Saturns!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisl0
Thats very true, in some places I have seen it cost as much as 87 or even slightly more. What you forget is that you get much better gas mileage. So even though you pay as much as 87 you don't have to fill up nearly as much thus saving money.
I know that, and you know that. But most people want instant gratification. If they happen to see the price of diesel higher than 87 just once when they think to look because they've been thinking about getting a diesel since fuel is cheaper, they'll be scared off for good. People are stupid

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Old 08-14-2006, 01:42 AM   #15
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Default Re: Diesel Saturns!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uzzy
I know that, and you know that. But most people want instant gratification. If they happen to see the price of diesel higher than 87 just once when they think to look because they've been thinking about getting a diesel since fuel is cheaper, they'll be scared off for good. People are stupid
Man I didn't think people were that stupid. You just got to understand basic math and see the numbers and it should click. I hope in the future they offer it as a option because they get gas mileage thats even better than a hybrid without the excess price and worrying about reliability. Common stupidity weak .

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Old 08-14-2006, 07:54 AM   #16
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Happy Basic math

We need to look at both the cost per gallon and the miles per gallon. We can divide the cost per gallon by the miles per gallon and arrive at the cost per mile.

($ / gal) / (mi / gal) = ($ / gal) * (gal / mi) = $ / mi

Using my current 2005 Jetta TDI, my old 2003 Saturn L200, current fuel prices in my area, and the combined city/highway fuel economy estimates from the EPA we see the following:This may seem like a small difference but if we assume each car is driven 15,000 miles per year, fuel costs remain constant, and both cars average the EPA estimate for combined city/highway driving then we see it would cost about $1,750 per year to drive my old 2003 Saturn L200 automatic versus $1,119 per year to drive my current Volkswagen Jetta TDI 5-speed. Over many years this $631 annual difference is even more significant.

We can play with the equations and see that because my Jetta TDI's fuel economy is better than my L200's fuel economy was, I pay less per year for fuel as long as diesel is less than about 150% the cost of low octane gasoline. In other words with gasoline currently at $3.15 per gallon, diesel would have to exceed $4.78 per gallon in order for me to lose my better fuel economy benefits with respect to the price of diesel fuel compared to the price of low octane gasoline.

Maybe it would be more fair to compare the fuel economy of a 2005 Jetta TDI 5-speed to a 2005 Jetta with a gasoline engine and a 5-speed transmission. Okay, for the 2005 model year the EPA rates the diesel version at 38 MPG city / 46 MPG highway and the gasoline versions at 21 to 24 MPG city / 29 to 31 MPG highway (depending on which gasoline engine is chosen). Big differences in terms of percentages.

Bottom line: even if diesel fuel costs a bit more than low octane gasoline, we probably still benefit with a diesel car because it probably gets substantially better fuel economy.

For whatever it is worth, I consistently average fuel economy on a per tank basis better than the EPA estimates with my Jetta TDI and each full tank of diesel has allowed my car to go 650 or more miles. 650+ miles per tank!

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Old 08-14-2006, 12:43 PM   #17
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Default Re: Basic math

Quote:
Originally Posted by David 93 SL2m
We need to look at both the cost per gallon and the miles per gallon. We can divide the cost per gallon by the miles per gallon and arrive at the cost per mile.

($ / gal) / (mi / gal) = ($ / gal) * (gal / mi) = $ / mi

Using my current 2005 Jetta TDI, my old 2003 Saturn L200, current fuel prices in my area, and the combined city/highway fuel economy estimates from the EPA we see the following:This may seem like a small difference but if we assume each car is driven 15,000 miles per year, fuel costs remain constant, and both cars average the EPA estimate for combined city/highway driving then we see it would cost about $1,750 per year to drive my old 2003 Saturn L200 automatic versus $1,119 per year to drive my current Volkswagen Jetta TDI 5-speed. Over many years this $631 annual difference is even more significant.

We can play with the equations and see that because my Jetta TDI's fuel economy is better than my L200's fuel economy was, I pay less per year for fuel as long as diesel is less than about 150% the cost of low octane gasoline. In other words with gasoline currently at $3.15 per gallon, diesel would have to exceed $4.78 per gallon in order for me to lose my better fuel economy benefits with respect to the price of diesel fuel compared to the price of low octane gasoline.

Maybe it would be more fair to compare the fuel economy of a 2005 Jetta TDI 5-speed to a 2005 Jetta with a gasoline engine and a 5-speed transmission. Okay, for the 2005 model year the EPA rates the diesel version at 38 MPG city / 46 MPG highway and the gasoline versions at 21 to 24 MPG city / 29 to 31 MPG highway (depending on which gasoline engine is chosen). Big differences in terms of percentages.

Bottom line: even if diesel fuel costs a bit more than low octane gasoline, we probably still benefit with a diesel car because it probably gets substantially better fuel economy.

For whatever it is worth, I consistently average fuel economy on a per tank basis better than the EPA estimates with my Jetta TDI and each full tank of diesel has allowed my car to go 650 or more miles. 650+ miles per tank!
I can agree with that 100%, I would like to get a Diesel car as a commuter car. Imagine how much I would save. Even diesel only costing just slightly less than 87 and including the much better gas mileage of a Diesel engine the savings are huge over a one year period.

I just hope they will come out with a Diesel Engine that gets 150-180 HP and put that on a nice sized car with optional AWD. Need that since I live in a area with tough winters. Or even a small suv that is VUE sized.

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Old 08-14-2006, 01:38 PM   #18
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Cool Re: Diesel Saturns!

The only problem is we can't justifiy buying a new car that gets better fuel economy than our current car based solely on the fuel savings. This is because most likely replacing a current car with a newer more efficient car will cost us money at the time of purchase (or over the life of the loan).

Would it make sense to spend $10,000 in order to save $600 per year? It depends on what else we gain beside the reduced fuel expenses. We might get more bells and whistles, we might get more safety things, we might pollute less, we will increase reliability with a newer car with fewer miles, etc.

In my case I actually did a 2 for 1 trade-in. I replaced my 2003 Saturn L200 and my 2002 Pontiac Trans Am WS6 with a 2005.5 Jetta TDI. My life got less complicated with fewer vehicles in the driveway. I have fewer vehicles to maintain, to wash, to register, to insure, to get emissions tested, and so on.

I'd even consider trading my 2005.5 Jetta TDI for a diesel Saturn! A diesel powered VUE would be sweet!

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Old 08-14-2006, 05:05 PM   #19
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Default Re: Diesel Saturns!

Quote:
Originally Posted by David 93 SL2m
The only problem is we can't justifiy buying a new car that gets better fuel economy than our current car based solely on the fuel savings. This is because most likely replacing a current car with a newer more efficient car will cost us money at the time of purchase (or over the life of the loan).

Would it make sense to spend $10,000 in order to save $600 per year? It depends on what else we gain beside the reduced fuel expenses. We might get more bells and whistles, we might get more safety things, we might pollute less, we will increase reliability with a newer car with fewer miles, etc.

In my case I actually did a 2 for 1 trade-in. I replaced my 2003 Saturn L200 and my 2002 Pontiac Trans Am WS6 with a 2005.5 Jetta TDI. My life got less complicated with fewer vehicles in the driveway. I have fewer vehicles to maintain, to wash, to register, to insure, to get emissions tested, and so on.

I'd even consider trading my 2005.5 Jetta TDI for a diesel Saturn! A diesel powered VUE would be sweet!
Makes sense, I wouldn't get this vehicle until I need it. I'm not just going to drop my present vehicle and spend all that money. I will get it when I need it.

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Old 08-14-2006, 05:06 PM   #20
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Default Re: Diesel Saturns!

I know what you mean, when I consider a replacement vehicle though I will consider something with a Diesel engine.

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