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Old 05-04-2018, 07:48 PM   #1
Kcarr65
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Default replacing front sub frame ?

can someone show me a pic of what they mean when asking round or square holes when buying one ? Do they mean the inner fenders ?

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Old 05-06-2018, 10:08 AM   #2
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

50 views and no one knows ?

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Old 05-06-2018, 10:45 AM   #3
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

Sorry no-one has commented yet.

First and foremost can you tell us about the vehicle you have please. This may sound odd, but we quite often get folks who post on the L Series section of the a Forum and who it turns out have an S Series. So if you could clarify that, you may get more response. We would need to know what year and designation model you have. You can also add this information to your profile and then will negate the need to ask these questions again.

As for square or round holes, I have no clue what you are referring to. There are members on here who have dropped their sub-frames and there may well be some threads on sub-frames. To my knowledge, the L Series sub-frame is attached to the body by several bolts and in parts of the sub-frame there are hidden square nuts which can and do get rusted up and become the bear to loosen off.

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Old 05-06-2018, 11:47 AM   #4
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasl22002 View Post
Sorry no-one has commented yet.

First and foremost can you tell us about the vehicle you have please. This may sound odd, but we quite often get folks who post on the L Series section of the a Forum and who it turns out have an S Series. So if you could clarify that, you may get more response. We would need to know what year and designation model you have. You can also add this information to your profile and then will negate the need to ask these questions again.

As for square or round holes, I have no clue what you are referring to. There are members on here who have dropped their sub-frames and there may well be some threads on sub-frames. To my knowledge, the L Series sub-frame is attached to the body by several bolts and in parts of the sub-frame there are hidden square nuts which can and do get rusted up and become the bear to loosen off.
Sorry my Saturn is a 2002 l200. When you buy front sub frame also known as a ( k frame ) they ask you if the fender splash shield has round or square holes. Im taking it that makes a difference when buying one. Multiple sites ask that question

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Old 05-06-2018, 12:38 PM   #5
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

I am still none the wiser.
I have read through my Haynes Manual on sub frame removal and it mentions nothing about unclipping fender splash shields from it. From my experience of removing the inner fender splash shields, if my memory serves me correct, the splash shield is held on by plastic fasteners to the body not the subframe ( or cradle as it's sometimes called).
The ONLY thing I can suggest is that you inspect your own vehicle and confirm to yourself what plastic shields (splash or otherwise) are attached to your cradle. If you do find some attached, then simply check whether the fasteners go into square or round holes. You will then know what version you need.
Personally, if you are removing and replacing the whole sub-frame and your car is from a rust area, then plastic splash shields will be the absolute least of your worries. Given you are replacing the sub-frame hints you have rust. Dropping, let alone replacing a sub-frame is not a job for the faint hearted.
You have something like 10 or so large bolts and cage nuts to contend with, that hold the cradle to the body and whilst you can still get bolts you cannot buy Cage nuts. I know because I tried!

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Old 05-06-2018, 02:11 PM   #6
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasl22002 View Post
I am still none the wiser.
I have read through my Haynes Manual on sub frame removal and it mentions nothing about unclipping fender splash shields from it. From my experience of removing the inner fender splash shields, if my memory serves me correct, the splash shield is held on by plastic fasteners to the body not the subframe ( or cradle as it's sometimes called).
The ONLY thing I can suggest is that you inspect your own vehicle and confirm to yourself what plastic shields (splash or otherwise) are attached to your cradle. If you do find some attached, then simply check whether the fasteners go into square or round holes. You will then know what version you need.
Personally, if you are removing and replacing the whole sub-frame and your car is from a rust area, then plastic splash shields will be the absolute least of your worries. Given you are replacing the sub-frame hints you have rust. Dropping, let alone replacing a sub-frame is not a job for the faint hearted.
You have something like 10 or so large bolts and cage nuts to contend with, that hold the cradle to the body and whilst you can still get bolts you cannot buy Cage nuts. I know because I tried!
Thanks but i know what the job consists of. If you look up a k frame youll see what question they ask. Yes it does matter.

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Old 05-06-2018, 03:06 PM   #7
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

As the splash shield contributes to the corrosion that condemns the subframe I recommend that you discard it. So the difference between round and square holes isn't an issue. The important thing is to have a solid frame.

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Old 05-06-2018, 04:05 PM   #8
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kcarr65 View Post
Sorry my Saturn is a 2002 l200. When you buy front sub frame also known as a ( k frame ) they ask you if the fender splash shield has round or square holes. Im taking it that makes a difference when buying one. Multiple sites ask that question
I have not seen any square holes on my passenger side splash shield. All were round. As it is, there is only one part number for the splash shield on all L-Series cars so the question asked doesn't really pertain to our vehicles - GM #90572460. In this instance, the most important consideration regarding the sub-frame is whether the car has an automatic or manual transmission.

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Old 05-07-2018, 08:50 AM   #9
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

Quote
Thanks but i know what the job consists of. If you look up a k frame youll see what question they ask. Yes it does matter. End Quote

Then with that attitude you don't really need any input from other members. As a JUNIOR member, I suspect that you 'know it all' as a new owner of a Saturn L series.

You have already seen comment from other more SENIOR members, some of whom like Pierrot have already done battle with the L series Sub-Frame and lived to tell the tale.

Rusty bolts, free spinning cage nuts are your real enemy with the L series sub-frame NOT the Splash shield. But then of course you'll know this already!

Good luck, but I'm outta here.

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Old 05-07-2018, 08:58 AM   #10
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasl22002 View Post
Quote
Thanks but i know what the job consists of. If you look up a k frame youll see what question they ask. Yes it does matter. End Quote

Then with that attitude you don't really need any input from other members. As a JUNIOR member, I suspect that you 'know it all' as a new owner of a Saturn L series.

You have already seen comment from other more SENIOR members, some of whom like Pierrot have already done battle with the L series Sub-Frame and lived to tell the tale.

Rusty bolts, free spinning cage nuts are your real enemy with the L series sub-frame NOT the Splash shield. But then of course you'll know this already!

Good luck, but I'm outta here.
Well with your attitude i really don't want your advice. Thanks to the senior members who replied.

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Old 05-07-2018, 09:31 AM   #11
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kcarr65 View Post
Well with your attitude i really don't want your advice. Thanks to the senior members who replied.
It would appear from some of your other posts elsewhere, your attitude precedes you with your glib comments. A word of advice... It will not get you very far, nor will it endear members to you and in the end your requests for help will go unanswered.

Whether your sub-frame in the future falls out beneath you and strands you 475 miles (as in another of your posts) from home is not my concern, but yours.

Just sayin.

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Old 05-07-2018, 09:58 AM   #12
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasl22002 View Post
It would appear from some of your other posts elsewhere, your attitude precedes you with your glib comments. A word of advice... It will not get you very far, nor will it endear members to you and in the end your requests for help will go unanswered.

Whether your sub-frame in the future falls out beneath you and strands you 475 miles (as in another of your posts) from home is not my concern, but yours.

Just sayin.
I treat people the way people treat me. Maybe you should learn that. Have a good day.

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Old 08-14-2019, 01:14 PM   #13
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by born again View Post
As the splash shield contributes to the corrosion that condemns the subframe I recommend that you discard it. So the difference between round and square holes isn't an issue. The important thing is to have a solid frame.
I literally just replaced the subframe on my 2004 L two weeks ago. I found the rust because I was comparing it to my 2003. I was looking for the plastic shield (or pan) that is only on the passenger side. Its not part of the fender liner. Is that the "splash shield" that you say I'm better off without?

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Old 08-14-2019, 04:05 PM   #14
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastL4Banger View Post
I literally just replaced the subframe on my 2004 L two weeks ago. I found the rust because I was comparing it to my 2003. I was looking for the plastic shield (or pan) that is only on the passenger side. Its not part of the fender liner. Is that the "splash shield" that you say I'm better off without?
^^^ You really need that splash shield on the vehicle otherwise your serpentine belt will possibly get soaked when driving in the rain. Then, belt will slip!

Best to leave it on and really put a good coat of primer and paint under the shield on that frame.

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Old 08-14-2019, 06:50 PM   #15
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Thumbs Up Re: replacing front sub frame ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rb6667 View Post
^^^ You really need that splash shield on the vehicle otherwise your serpentine belt will possibly get soaked when driving in the rain. Then, belt will slip!

Best to leave it on and really put a good coat of primer and paint under the shield on that frame.

This is likely a dead thread but I would have to agree. Although some posters in other threads claim the shield helps promote a corrosive environment. In my personal experience, with the LW300 subframe I replaced last week, it was the driver side that had the most corrosion.

I had been welding patches on the driver side for years. I do note, however, on the "splash shielded" passenger side, the rust had taken residence under the "horn' on the passenger side, where the subframe bolts under the passenger floor pan, where the tri-mount plate sits. But then again, both horns were bad.

While looking for a replacement subframe, I also saw the "square vs round" question. A poster here on SatFans said it referred to where the plastic pushpins that engage the splash shield, and not critical.

Since I have used a wide array of alternate ways to mount underbody panels in the past, (push pins missing or deformed from previous service men ) I did not sweat the square vs round question. I'd just loop a decent sized tie wrap through the eyelet and around the frame and you're good to go.

Opinions vary the circle/square issue, but in my case I was confident it would not interfere either way with the main task at hand, which is getting the frame replaced. My .02 cents only.

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Last edited by Sir Wagonsky; 08-14-2019 at 07:03 PM..

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Old 08-14-2019, 06:58 PM   #16
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rb6667 View Post
^^^ You really need that splash shield on the vehicle otherwise your serpentine belt will possibly get soaked when driving in the rain. Then, belt will slip!

Best to leave it on and really put a good coat of primer and paint under the shield on that frame.
And just to say , yeah, this is what I'm going to do. The panel is off now for re-inspection tomorrow, so this weekend I'll follow suit and coat the top of the frame prior putting it back on.
I'll get it mounted, no matter what the clip style needs.

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Old 08-20-2019, 06:21 AM   #17
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

Okay, I see now that the splash shield on the passenger side is just a bigger version of the driver side. There was front end damage on that side so it looked like a separate piece to me. the part of the frame that rusted away on my 2004 L was not covered by this shield. So I went ahead and replaced the piece I got from the junkyard. I can see it "protects" the AC compressor and alternator (both new).

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Old 08-20-2019, 11:04 AM   #18
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

hi sages of Saturn- just when I have deluded myself into thinking I know everything, a tiny, simple thing bamboozles me. read with interest this thread on rustrotting subframes or cradles on L100s. mine has 182 k original miles and has been in nj and fla all its life. inspected it and saw no rust/rot on that frame. but did hear my always helpful bruthas here talk of cage nuts . never heard that term. what is it and what application calls for them. kindly excuse my occasional dimbulbitis. thanks tons bob f

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Old 08-20-2019, 12:48 PM   #19
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
rfisher
cage nut sample


Since the cradle's 18mm bolts go up into the unibody, cage nuts similar to above hold the nut from spinning. On removal of 15 year old cradle assemblies, the metal "brake" (clip) encompassing the nut can snap .. making withdrawing the bolt a problem .. as the bolt and nut just spin.

If you look hard enough, there's usually a small access window to blast some penetrant in there, where the cage nut rests. I used Seafoam Deep Creep to treat the nuts beforehand. I sprayed the threads through the window where the nut is. They got a second round of spray a few hours before removal. Spraying the 18mm bolt head is of little purpose whereas that's not where the issue is. At least not on my car.

If you wind up with a "spinner" during frame swap, a thin open end wrench can fit in there. But it will take talent.

Hope this info helps. I couldn't find the actual images I was looking for.

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Old 08-20-2019, 01:07 PM   #20
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Default Re: replacing front sub frame ?

duplicate post

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