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Old 11-12-2007, 02:54 PM   #21
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkaresh View Post
That someone needs better reading comprehension.

The Mazda3 is not only quicker, but has more communicative steering, more agile handling, a more stylish interior, better ergonomics, more interior cargo space, a better feeling manual shifter, an extra ratio in the automatic transmission, proven reliability, and very likely other advantages I'm forgetting to list.
The bolded sentences are your opinion. Please, quantify the 'feel' of the shifter. Explain how reaching for the stereo in the Mazda is better than the reach in the Astra. Please explain, in non-emotive words how the interior is styled better and the steering is more communicative. I can time the 0-60, I can measure the cargo space, I can count the gears (also, it's the 2.3L 5-door that gets the 5sp auto - at a $4K price differential, not just any Mazda 3), everything else is opinion. Opinions aren't facts. And yes, that person needs better reading comprehension, as do most Americans. We also need a little objectivity when we look at cars, good luck getting either one of those these days. American = crap to most people. Criticism is good, when it's done right. When it's an automatic assumption that where something is built determines it's 'goodness', that's wrong. And the automatic assumption that American cars are crap is wrong as well. Why are American cars held to higher standards than Japanese? Why isn't matching the Japanese enough? We can't even give credit for doing that, can we?

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Old 11-12-2007, 02:56 PM   #22
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

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Originally Posted by BobbyP View Post
Granted my comments are a little harsh, but considering all the resources GM has and not to have offered two levels of performance/power depending on the consumers needs is dumb.

Most every Saturn had two levels of performance to be competitive in their segment. It's like in the 60's. Race on Sunday, sales on Monday. The performance version will bring them into the showroom, and a majority will leave with the standard version.

The Astra may possibly become the car Saturn dealers wished they didn't have in their showrooms... This chassis will be obsolete in a short period of time. The next Astra chassis is due in two years.

When I get the opportunity I'll drive the Astra and let Saturn_69 know how it went...
It's about cost. They couldn't afford to really bring it over any other way. Yes, stop-gaps suck...but not as much as not having a compact car in Saturn's lineup. Makes me wish they would've kept the Ion going until the 'Perfect Astra' was here.

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Old 11-12-2007, 03:00 PM   #23
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

I believe that you'll find that my personal opinion will also be the consensus opinion of car reviewers and car buyers.

I'm still quite confused that you're playing the anti-American card concerning a car designed and manufactured in Europe.

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Old 11-12-2007, 03:03 PM   #24
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

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Originally Posted by BobbyP View Post
When I heard of the 1.8L engine in the Astra, I posted that it was not good enough. GM was not giving the US the whole "enchilada"... For this reason the car won't have enough impact in the US. History is repeating itself...

Wake up Saturn! Give the US the same package that works so well in Europe...

I totally agree, and have stated this to other people as well, It is just plain stupid.

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Old 11-12-2007, 03:14 PM   #25
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkaresh View Post
That's a botched comparison. You're looking at the Mazda3 sedan, with a standard (and still stronger) 2.0-liter engine. The Mazda3 only comes with the 2.3-liter.

Also gotta love how the Astra is listed as a "sedan" by MSN.

My site provides a much better comparison between the two cars:

http://www.truedelta.com/comparisons...ion_code=&aff=

Ignore the cargo volume comparison. The two companies appear to be using different methods. Cargo volume numbers are nearly worthless. I've considered not even posting them, though they tend to be more comparable with sedans.

Also realize that the Mazda3 doesn't weigh as much.

The moment I saw that they were going to have us drive the Mazda3, I knew the Astra was in trouble. I'm really not sure how they expected to win people over with this event. The Rabbit, for its part, didn't handle as well, but felt considerably more luxurious and upscale than the other cars there.

So those looking for performance would choose the Mazda, those seeking an upscale feel would choose the VW, and I'm not sure where this leaves the Saturn. Except that it was the only 3-door.

Sure, the OPC would be nice. Though then the comparable car would be the MazdaSpeed3.

I have read several comparisons with other vehicles to the Mazda3, and it has performed well, but don't forget you get a longer warranty with Saturn/GM, and parts/labor should also be considered, since you'll be paying almost twice the amount for the Mazda, as you would for the Satty.

Though I am also dissapointed with the lack-luster reviews the Astra has been getting, all they say is it's the rebadged version of the Vauxhall etc.... It just seems to me they missed the mark again. I think the Ion had a better shot than the new Astra, but that's my opinion.

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Old 11-12-2007, 03:23 PM   #26
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkaresh View Post
I believe that you'll find that my personal opinion will also be the consensus opinion of car reviewers and car buyers.

I'm still quite confused that you're playing the anti-American card concerning a car designed and manufactured in Europe.
That's good you believe this Michael, you should afterall, you run your own website. It's good to be confident.

BUT, I think you are indicating that the MAJORITY of car buyers and reviewers will have a less than satisfactory stance on the Astra. That, in my humble opinion will not be the case. But hey let's just wait and find out.

The Astra has already been slammed numerous times here even before an actual saleable unit has been reviewed.

I can find 10 good reviews from credible sources for every one bad one form the like. But when it comes to what really matters, the buyer(s) I think it would be smart to reserve judgement until the real deal hits the shores.

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Old 11-12-2007, 04:18 PM   #27
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

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Originally Posted by SKYGUY10066 View Post
That's good you believe this Michael, you should afterall, you run your own website. It's good to be confident.

BUT, I think you are indicating that the MAJORITY of car buyers and reviewers will have a less than satisfactory stance on the Astra. That, in my humble opinion will not be the case. But hey let's just wait and find out.

The Astra has already been slammed numerous times here even before an actual saleable unit has been reviewed.

I can find 10 good reviews from credible sources for every one bad one form the like. But when it comes to what really matters, the buyer(s) I think it would be smart to reserve judgement until the real deal hits the shores.
In the beginning, when he first started his site, I didn't trust his posts. Every one of them said to "visit TrueDelta.com....on my site, TrueDelta.com....for the real story, see TrueDelta.com" and it smacked of self-promotion. How objectionable could he be with a site to plug, after all? I don't question his facts and figures, as they (supposedly, I mean it is the internet after all) come from outside parties, the owners of the cars in question. I just don't read his opinions. I take the reliability stats with a grain of salt as well. Sure, 50 people didn't have any problems, but 100 people who don't have internet access or any interest in posting on a forum may have had catastrophic failures. We'll never know. We all take our chances when buying any car, and to think otherwise or to base a car's reliability on what that manufacturer has done 5, 10 or 20 years ago is just plain naive and stupid. And pointless. Look at the problems that Toyota is having. Who would have thought that was even possible? That's why you can't judge a cars reliability on a survey. Buy it and take your chances like everyone else. Track records mean squat. All it takes is one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch.

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Old 11-12-2007, 04:23 PM   #28
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYGUY10066 View Post
That's good you believe this Michael, you should afterall, you run your own website. It's good to be confident.

BUT, I think you are indicating that the MAJORITY of car buyers and reviewers will have a less than satisfactory stance on the Astra. That, in my humble opinion will not be the case. But hey let's just wait and find out.

The Astra has already been slammed numerous times here even before an actual saleable unit has been reviewed.

I can find 10 good reviews from credible sources for every one bad one form the like. But when it comes to what really matters, the buyer(s) I think it would be smart to reserve judgement until the real deal hits the shores.
I said nothing about the Astra being "less than satisfactory." That's a distortion based on how you read: "not the best" has become translated as "less than satisfactory."

I've said many times that the Astra is a good car. The problem is that on what seem the most likely key criteria it is not the best car. And why buy a good car if there's a better one?

A big problem with GM historically is the philosophy that "good is good enough." It's not.

Let's see how the comparison tests shake out. My prediction is that the Astra will lose to the Mazda3 repeatedly.

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Old 11-12-2007, 08:48 PM   #29
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

Saturn invited the comparison by having a bunch of us drive the two cars back to back.

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Old 11-12-2007, 08:53 PM   #30
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

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Originally Posted by saturn_69 View Post
In the beginning, when he first started his site, I didn't trust his posts. Every one of them said to "visit TrueDelta.com....on my site, TrueDelta.com....for the real story, see TrueDelta.com" and it smacked of self-promotion. How objectionable could he be with a site to plug, after all? I don't question his facts and figures, as they (supposedly, I mean it is the internet after all) come from outside parties, the owners of the cars in question. I just don't read his opinions. I take the reliability stats with a grain of salt as well. Sure, 50 people didn't have any problems, but 100 people who don't have internet access or any interest in posting on a forum may have had catastrophic failures. We'll never know. We all take our chances when buying any car, and to think otherwise or to base a car's reliability on what that manufacturer has done 5, 10 or 20 years ago is just plain naive and stupid. And pointless. Look at the problems that Toyota is having. Who would have thought that was even possible? That's why you can't judge a cars reliability on a survey. Buy it and take your chances like everyone else. Track records mean squat. All it takes is one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch.
You contradict yourself. If most of what you say here is true, then Toyota might not be having any significant problems. Since you don't believe survey results or what you read in forums, how do you know Toyota is having problems?

With my data, you're basing a decision one how reliable the cars have been for a year that ended just over a month ago. And the results are updated every three months. So the information is always fresh and relevant to a car purchased today.

There is no reason to think that people who lack Internet access are more or less likely to require a car repair. Unless you can establish a linkage, this factor is irrelevant.

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Old 11-13-2007, 12:13 AM   #31
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

I drove the Astra at a preview event, along with the Mazda3 and the Rabbit. I wasn't really impressed with any of them. The Astra does seem to lack storage compartments. GM offers the Astra in Europe with a wide range of engines. Since the car coming here is built there, in Belgium, they could have at least offered a more powerful engine in the XR.

And don't be too hard on the Chevette. Did you ever own one? I did. A three door hatch with no backseat. I paid $1800 cash, out the door for it. It wasn't much of a car, but in the six months I owned it, it saved me putting about 6,000 miles on my Porsche.

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Old 11-13-2007, 12:22 AM   #32
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

How else can you claim to own a Vette after spending just $1,800?

Both the Mazda3 and Rabbit would have been more fun to drive with a manual transmission. As was the Astra, despite the shoddy feel to the shifter.

I suspect that most Astras sold in Europe are equipped with the manual.

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Old 11-13-2007, 01:51 AM   #33
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

There appears to be a general negative reaction to the 1.8 L/140 HP engine in the Saturn Astra from those who have driven one. Does anyone have any price and performance figures on the 1.6L/180 HP Turbo or 2.0L/200 HP Turbo available in Europe ?

Obviously GM was trying to keep the price down by using the 1.8 L,but people would probably have looked favourably on these turbos as an option if the performance is significantly better and price premium was reasonable.

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Old 11-13-2007, 02:14 AM   #34
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

No doubt including one of the turbos would have boosted the price above the target. And turbos aren't the best choice for the typical driver.

This is why many of us have felt that the 2.4 (or at least the 2.2) from the same engine family as the 1.8 would have been a better, viable alternative. Unlike with a turbo, manufacturing cost for either the 2.2 or the 2.4 would be similar to that for the 1.8.

You'll see a similar strategy in the 2009 Vibe and Matrix. They'll have a 1.8 as the base engine, but a 2.4 as an option. This despite probably weighing less than the Astra (the current Vibe/Matrix weighs about 200 pounds less than the Astra).

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Old 11-13-2007, 11:26 AM   #35
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkaresh View Post
You contradict yourself. If most of what you say here is true, then Toyota might not be having any significant problems. Since you don't believe survey results or what you read in forums, how do you know Toyota is having problems?

With my data, you're basing a decision one how reliable the cars have been for a year that ended just over a month ago. And the results are updated every three months. So the information is always fresh and relevant to a car purchased today.

There is no reason to think that people who lack Internet access are more or less likely to require a car repair. Unless you can establish a linkage, this factor is irrelevant.
I don't read reliability ratings. I've never picked up a copy of Consumer Reports. I buy what I like and take my chances.

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Old 11-13-2007, 11:35 AM   #36
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

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Originally Posted by mkaresh View Post
You contradict yourself. If most of what you say here is true, then Toyota might not be having any significant problems. Since you don't believe survey results or what you read in forums, how do you know Toyota is having problems?

With my data, you're basing a decision one how reliable the cars have been for a year that ended just over a month ago. And the results are updated every three months. So the information is always fresh and relevant to a car purchased today.

There is no reason to think that people who lack Internet access are more or less likely to require a car repair. Unless you can establish a linkage, this factor is irrelevant.


This isn't a forum or survey result. The opinion is based on facts:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...ettlement.html

This is a federally "encouraged" bulletin.

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Old 11-13-2007, 11:41 AM   #37
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

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Originally Posted by mkaresh View Post
This is why many of us have felt that the 2.4 (or at least the 2.2) from the same engine family as the 1.8 would have been a better, viable alternative. Unlike with a turbo, manufacturing cost for either the 2.2 or the 2.4 would be similar to that for the 1.8.

You'll see a similar strategy in the 2009 Vibe and Matrix. They'll have a 1.8 as the base engine, but a 2.4 as an option. This despite probably weighing less than the Astra (the current Vibe/Matrix weighs about 200 pounds less than the Astra).
They aren't from the same engine family. The 1.8 in the Astra is not related to the Ecotec in the Ion. It has an iron block, aluminum head, timing belt instead of chain, the intake is on back of head, exhaust is on the front. They are related in name only.

Have you seen the mileage figure for the Toyota 2.4? I'd rather have a slow Astra than one that sucks fuel like a Kennedy after falling off the wagon. And from what I've seen, the Astra weighs 130 lbs. more than a 1st gen Vibe/Matrix. If Toyota sticks to its typical 2nd gen tactics (and it did), I look for that weight disparity to swing towards the Astra's advantage.

Here's the '09 Vibe weight:
2855: 1.8L base w/ manual
2985 lbs: 2.4L base w/ manual

Astra XE sedan:
2921 lbs base w/manual
Astra XR coupe
2833 lbs base w/manual

That's less than 100 pounds for the 5-door, with the 3-door at a 22lb or 152lb advantage over the Vibe/Matrix.

Oh, BTW, I didn't say I didn't believe your survey results, I said I take them with a grain of salt.

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Old 11-13-2007, 12:12 PM   #38
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

Thanks for the info on the curb weights and the 1.8. I was too lazy to look up the Gen2 curb weights, just noted that the 2003 weighed 2700 pounds.

On the 1.8, that explains why there won't be any simple 2.4-liter installation.

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Old 11-13-2007, 04:26 PM   #39
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

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They aren't from the same engine family. The 1.8 in the Astra is not related to the Ecotec in the Ion. It has an iron block, aluminum head, timing belt instead of chain, the intake is on back of head, exhaust is on the front. They are related in name only.

Have you seen the mileage figure for the Toyota 2.4? I'd rather have a slow Astra than one that sucks fuel like a Kennedy after falling off the wagon. And from what I've seen, the Astra weighs 130 lbs. more than a 1st gen Vibe/Matrix. If Toyota sticks to its typical 2nd gen tactics (and it did), I look for that weight disparity to swing towards the Astra's advantage.

Here's the '09 Vibe weight:
2855: 1.8L base w/ manual
2985 lbs: 2.4L base w/ manual

Astra XE sedan:
2921 lbs base w/manual
Astra XR coupe
2833 lbs base w/manual

That's less than 100 pounds for the 5-door, with the 3-door at a 22lb or 152lb advantage over the Vibe/Matrix.

Oh, BTW, I didn't say I didn't believe your survey results, I said I take them with a grain of salt.
Shame it's the European ECOTEC... The harder I look at the Astra, the more I want to avoid it. History could be repeating itself.

I hope the Astra sells well.

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Old 11-13-2007, 04:29 PM   #40
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Default Re: Sorry, Saturn...

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Shame it's the European ECOTEC... The harder I look at the Astra, the more I want to avoid it. History could be repeating itself.

I hope the Astra sells well.
Not being a smart-ass, but what's wrong with the European Ecotec? The Ecotec used in the Ion and a lot of other GM cars and SUV's was designed by Europeans.

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