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Old 03-09-2003, 01:10 AM   #1
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Attention Disturbing Trend Prompts SaturnFans Community Rules to be Updated

I've noticed a disturbing increase in the number of members attacking other members, their cars, and Saturn. This type of activity will not be tolerated. It is against the rules of this board to post messages that are rude, inconsiderate, or that bash other members or Saturn. Constructive criticism is encouraged, but the off-the-cuff remarks that have been posted here lately are getting out of hand.

My primary goal as the administrator of this message board is to maintain a community where all owners, enthusiasts, and skeptics feel comfortable talking about their cars and ownership experiences - whether they are good or bad. However, a growing trend on this site involves a small group of members who, for a variety of reasons, have began posting rude or sarcastic messages that are insulting and offensive. No one should be forced to defend their Saturn purchase, or be made to feel that they made a poor decision by buying a Saturn. Any member who engages in this type of activity will have their account deactivated. The mudslinging - whether it targets another member, Saturn, or GM - has to stop.

One area of specific concern to me are some of the more recent ION discussions. They seem to be turning into debates between ION and S-Series owners - a turf war of sorts - and some are getting ugly. There is no "us" or "them" here. We are all part of one community and extended Saturn family. S-Series owners who bash the ION are insulting new ION owners who are new to the board. Regardless of how you feel about the ION, its important to make new members feel welcome here. I am very thankful that the vast majority of members do a terrific job welcoming new members. However some members have insinuated that, among other things, the ION owners are "blindly" supporting Saturn with their purchase. We all have our own personal reasons for buying a car, and most of us spend a lot of time researching our options before buying anything. Just because you may think the ION is not as good as the old S-Series or its competition, does not mean that it really is inferior... that is only your opinion. Some folks have even gone as far to say those who like the ION are close-minded. This is immature and childish. Saturn has always been about change; they've always done things different. I'm not sure why that's such an issue now.

I understand that we each have our own opinions about the current state of Saturn, and I am not trying to stifle any current or future discussions on this topic. I want everyone to feel comfortable posting threads with constructive criticism or ideas on how Saturn could build a better car. Just try to understand your fellow members' point of view - their opinion is just as valid as yours. We each come from different walks of life, and can positively contribute to this community in many ways.

Please pay close attention to the revised set of forum rules listed below. This is not an attempt to limit your freedom of speech. This is about R-E-S-P-E-C-T... respect for others and respect for the rules of this community.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

Charlie

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Old 03-09-2003, 01:26 AM   #2
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Charlie,

I want to thank you very much for bringing this issue to bay. I've been finding it very difficult to post here as of late just due to the extreme negativity that's going on. I come here to enjoy myself, not feel bashed.

I look forward to posting more in the future,
Thanks again.
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Old 03-09-2003, 09:22 AM   #3
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Good post Charlie! I've noticed these recent incursions to civility and don't much care for them either. As I've told several posters, both publicly and privately, there are many other boards out there if junk talk or porno or flaming others is your thing. This ain't one of them though and if that is your thing, go find one but don't bring it here.

Keep up the good work though Charlie.
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Old 03-09-2003, 11:19 AM   #4
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Default Thank you Charlie !

I have only been a member of this board since January of this year. The reason I found this forum is because of the ION. While I have always owned Saturn cars and been very proud of the cars and a satisfied owner, it was the ION that brought about enough excitement to seek a forum like this. I am a "Saturnfan" now because of ION rather than just a happy Saturn owner.
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Old 03-09-2003, 01:10 PM   #5
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Default Re: Disturbing Trend Prompts SaturnFans Community Rules to be Updated

Seems like a fine line here...I assume that it's acceptable to point out facts such as that the ION has worse fuel mileage than the S Series and even some new midsize cars. Is it acceptable to state one's opinion that this should be considered unacceptable? Is it acceptable to criticize the downgrading of components in the name of cost savings, or for that matter the more general trend of Saturn becoming just another GM division?
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Old 03-09-2003, 02:03 PM   #6
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To add to my previous post, in all seriousness, how about the following:

"The ION weighs 2800 lbs" would simply be a fact.

"The ION is overweight" would be an opinion, but is it considered bashing?
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Old 03-09-2003, 02:13 PM   #7
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Stating facts are great. Continually repeating the same ones over and over to a non-receptive audience of owners who actually own the car is likely annoying to those who genuinely like the car though.

I have two SL2s in my garage. The cars are far from perfect and flawed like heck with many respects and the NVH levels are off the charts by modern measurement - just the same, I like them. If the ION owners constantly bashed my SL2s and harped on them, I'd be soon tired of it as well. This is why there are many other areas of this site to look at and waste time in.

Looking back to when the VUE came out, I viewed the VUE owners as barely Saturn Fans since the vehicle was so new and all. Nonetheless, they are Saturn products and their owners are SaturnFans.
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Old 03-09-2003, 02:23 PM   #8
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Fair enough. I've certainly made my opinions known, so I'll shut up now. I just think it would be a shame if all that is allowed is Saturn praise. Again, I know that constructive criticism is allowed, but where is the line between constructive criticism and bashing? Perhaps the ION forum is the wrong place to criticize the car...but in the past criticism has never been confined strictly to the "suggestion box". If that's the way it should be from this point forward, I certainly have no complaint with that. But the one thing I would say is that as an S Series owner, I was never bothered by specific criticisms of the car. I do sort of get tired of some of the more general jokes about Saturn owners, but it's not a big deal. But certainly any specific criticism of the S Series didn't bother me just because I own one.
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Old 03-09-2003, 02:38 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by VTHOKIE97SL2
Fair enough. I've certainly made my opinions known, so I'll shut up now.
Well, what I think has to happen is a certain sense of containment. In a forum where someone is seeking feedback on the ION, or whatever model, and there is feedback, let them know. In forums where they are not necessarily looking for ample negative feedback but for information, perhaps that is not the place to offer this same insight...

Quote:
Originally posted by VTHOKIE97SL2
I just think it would be a shame if all that is allowed is Saturn praise. Again, I know that constructive criticism is allowed, but where is the line between constructive criticism and bashing?
Constructive would be offering it once where it was being sought. Bashing would be bringing up the same item over and over in many different threads.


Quote:
Originally posted by VTHOKIE97SL2
Perhaps the ION forum is the wrong place to criticize the car...but in the past criticism has never been confined strictly to the "suggestion box". If that's the way it should be from this point forward, I certainly have no complaint with that.
As the forum grows, perhaps a bit of structure would be good for it. The suggestion box could be used for on-topic, constructive observations and such. (This is not my decision, but I figured that I'd chip in with my .02)

Quote:
Originally posted by VTHOKIE97SL2
But the one thing I would say is that as an S Series owner, I was never bothered by specific criticisms of the car. I do sort of get tired of some of the more general jokes about Saturn owners, but it's not a big deal. But certainly any specific criticism of the S Series didn't bother me just because I own one.
I personally could give two tick turds what others think of my SL2 cars. They suit my needs just fine, are reasonably quick, OK on gas giving my driving habits, one of them is completely free to me and the other is paid for. People can bust chops on them all day long and all I say to myself is:
1) What is their payment.
2) How many dings?
3) How many are American?
4) How good are they in a crash?

Putting myself in the situation of having recently plunked down 15-18 grand for a car though and having it constantly berated because it ain't exactly what it replaced could get old I suppose. Me? I'd just keep coming back with the positives and enjoy the ride.
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Old 03-09-2003, 02:52 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by piney

As the forum grows, perhaps a bit of structure would be good for it. The suggestion box could be used for on-topic, constructive observations and such. (This is not my decision, but I figured that I'd chip in with my .02)
Speaking of which, why is there no S Series forum?
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Old 03-09-2003, 03:19 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by VTHOKIE97SL2
Speaking of which, why is there no S Series forum?
It is a conspiracy to get us to buy an ION or VUE and Charlie is in on it!!
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Old 03-09-2003, 03:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by VTHOKIE97SL2
Speaking of which, why is there no S Series forum?
Do you realize how many posts there are on this board in reference to the S-Series?
I'm sure it's very difficult, if not close to impossible to seperate all of those posts from the others.


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Old 03-09-2003, 08:58 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by piney
I personally could give two tick turds what others think of my SL2 cars. They suit my needs just fine, are reasonably quick, OK on gas giving my driving habits, one of them is completely free to me and the other is paid for. People can bust chops on them all day long and all I say to myself is:
1) What is their payment.
2) How many dings?
3) How many are American?
4) How good are they in a crash?

Putting myself in the situation of having recently plunked down 15-18 grand for a car though and having it constantly berated because it ain't exactly what it replaced could get old I suppose. Me? I'd just keep coming back with the positives and enjoy the ride.
That is exactly the way I think when someone makes fun of my car. My Saturn is good for me, it gets me and my family where we need to go safely, fairly comfortably, cheaply and dent and ding free. I don't see why some people feel as though its their duty to continually bash what other people like, such as Saturn in general, and the ION. As an example not related to this board, this girl that I went to my former high school with constantly made fun of my car and Saturns. It's not like she just made fun of me at school, she was a friend of mine (I emphasize WAS because I can't stand her anymore), and she would sometimes come to my house. One day I had to move my Saturn down the street, while her and her boyfriend (another winner) were standing next to his Focus. As I drove by, she the passenger side rear quarter panel and scuffed it with her ugly black shoe. I was fuming; I got out of the car and screamed at her, and said that if I can't get it out, she'll pay to have it fixed. Instead of apologizing for damaging my car, she had the nerve to say "I don't care, it's a piece of crap (that's wasn't the actual word, but you guys get it) anyway. So what if it has a scratch." As she said this her idiot boyfriend stood there and laughed, so, I went over and kicked his brand new Focus and said "Oops, oh well it's garbage anyway" and walked back to my house and told them not to come back in. Then, a good friend of mine who also dislikes that girl, went into a CVS and who was behind the counter, the twit who kicked my car. They started talking and my friend told her that she just got a Saturn coupe, and then the dumb girl laughed, and was like "eeew, why did you get a Saturn." But somehow, she thinks that her rusted out 1992 Corolla is somehow superior to my '96 SL1 and my friend's '97 SC2. Hmmm, go figure.

Anyway, getting back to the topic, I am glad that this has been brought up. I am very tired of the negativity on this board too, especially regarding the ION. If you don't like it, don't buy it, but don't try and make others who do like it and who have bought it feel as though they are stupid for doing so. I happen to like the ION very much, and I am so sick of reading about this so called cheap interior. I have seen A LOT worse. It seems as though people dismiss this car and label it as junk just because they don't like the interior. Don't like it, great then, don't buy it and leave those who do like it alone. Like I said, I am glad this has been brought to everyone's attention. It's things like this that make SaturnFans.com as great as it is! Thanks Charlie!!!!!
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Old 03-09-2003, 10:31 PM   #14
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I have to agree with VTHOKIE97SL2, that I am a little unclear about what is and isn't considered acceptable. Are there some posts in particular that are problematic or is it more of a wholistic thing? A few examples would be helpful.

P.S. While I love my 2000 SC2, I'd certanly be willing to trade it for a brand new ION, if someone decides that they like the S-series better.

Last edited by DualCamCoupe; 03-09-2003 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 03-10-2003, 05:02 AM   #15
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Hey IonicSaturn-

This is my second post here. I too just bought a new Ion3 and am enjoying it a great deal. My other Saturn was a '92 SL2 my family owned since the beginning of Saturn as a new car company, so although I am new here I also really like the new Ion for the positives.

The SL series was refined a great deal. I hated the plastic clips holding the molding to the frame. They snapped off and cost about $150 labor/parts to replace and the new ones would snap off again after a few years. Anyone with an earlier SL series probably knows what I mean. This was fixed in later models, such as the '97 SL1 my friend bought, and even though it annoyed me that my own '92 had what I considered a fault I still loved that car, since it was with me through so many years and moments in my life.

It's nice to see the moderators making an issue out of bashing and trash talk. That story about the girl and her attitude is sort of sad, but we all know those types.

By the way, my friend with the SL1 traded in his Saturn for a Mercedes 2001 C240 or some lower end Mercedes. Although this new car has many more bells and whistles, is a V6, and is a very nice car he often complains about people talking about his 'cheap,' Mercedes, worries about paying it off, is concerned with the dings and scratches. It seems you can't win no matter what you do if you listen to others.

A car is a very personal choice and many of us have very different needs and desires in vehicles. Some people would never keep a car for over 10 years like I did. Others don't think anything that can't do 0-60 in less than 6-7 seconds is worth driving. Some think any car worth less than $50K is 'junk.' The really shallow and snobby think any car over 1-2 model years old and not top of the line is for 'poor,' people.

The fact remains that no one drives your car, except you and your family and friends and as long as you like your car, that is what matters most. People who have to talk smack or try to hurt others feelings are just compensating for something within themselves most of the time.
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Old 03-10-2003, 10:39 AM   #16
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I'm keeping out of the ION forum. Like a snake pit.
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Old 03-10-2003, 12:23 PM   #17
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Just wanted to say thanks, Charlie. Things were starting to get out of hand in the ION forum. I hope that the above poster (ricksLS1) will give it another try in the future.

I've found this site very useful in my research for my future quad coupe. But now it has gotten past research. I really look forward to seeing what people are saying and there seem to be a lot of friendly, helpful people here. I'm glad you are trying to keep it that way.
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Old 03-10-2003, 01:04 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by ricksLS1
I'm keeping out of the ION forum. Like a snake pit.
Oh great, so now we're going to have some outcast forum. Speak of it and the children scatter and make hissing noises to purify their ears. Only the ancient ones who remember, once, long ago, when an ION forum did not exist.

Back in those times, it is said that we were all one and spoke within three popular forums--General Discussion, Tech Talk and Mods and Performance. And all was good. Until one dark day, the earth shook with fury and fire came down from the sky. And upon a horse rode the god of the forums. The one they call "Charlie", came down and foretold "Our divine being, Saturn, has introduced a new car...the ION, and the forum will come into existance." And the members saw what had been created, and saw that it was good. However, evil spread its demon seed throughout the board and caused great corruption and death--as this had been foretold by the prophets.

Those who are brave enough to venture into the forum never come back as they were. They are silenced to speech as though the evil one had cast a spell over the keyboard. Those that can speak only repeat of the horrific rituals performed there. These evils...they are...disturbing. Some say they saw Rear Independent Suspension Sacrifice, Demons that removed their heads and replaced them with others of different colors, and the horrific cyclops being known only as "CENTER-IP". But the prophesys have foretold that a savior will come down some time in 2005...however the future is unsure.

There is no chance to survive, make your time.

Can anyone else tell how bored I am? Remember, this is just a joke, no need for anyone to take offense at it.

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Old 03-10-2003, 01:22 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by VTHOKIE97SL2
To add to my previous post, in all seriousness, how about the following:

"The ION weighs 2800 lbs" would simply be a fact.

"The ION is overweight" would be an opinion, but is it considered bashing?
While VTHOKIE97SL2 and I don't agree very much on certain subjects I will have to agree with him on this one. For example, if I give my opinion on the Saturn corparation of how I believe the company is going to the dogs due to GM's involvement, how the current Ion is a failure and list my reasons in detail then am I to assume that this is bashing. This would be my opinion of Saturns current direction and car offerings, but I will be reserved and not exercise my first Amendment rights on this board for I would not want to offend anyone or the all powerful Saturn Corp. As for the S-cars (and I own two of em) I can think of many downfalls to them and admit that they are far from perfect. If someone wants to criticise (bash) the S-series, go for it for I will even name my own complaints about the S-car too, that is if we are permitted. I like the S-cars, some I'm sure can't stand them and if they wish to speak up against them then they should have the right, but this is Charlie's site and I will abide by the rules and hold my tongue. I hope this post doesn't get me banned from the forums, but I had to put in my 2 cents.
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Old 03-10-2003, 02:14 PM   #20
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Can't we all just get along?
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