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Old 02-12-2014, 10:47 PM   #1
B-Hamz
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Default Dying for Horsepower!

Hi Saturnfans. I'm a new Vue owner and quite frankly, I love it. However, the one major flaw I've found so far is its extreme lack in HP. I have the 2.2 L with an automatic (wanted the manual, dad argued it). Are there any slightly cheap and effective ways to pull some ponies outta this bad boy?
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:07 PM   #2
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

Your '04 Vue probably has the VTI transmission which is notoriously short lived. Not trying to crash your dreams for more power...... but.....

You should be nursing that little 4cyl along, and save your pennies.

now, if you are just talking about adding HP to an ecotech 4cyl......

I have often wondered if you could swap in a supercharged Ion motor, or just the forced induction setup. I am sure it would be very involved, and might require a stand-alone engine control system.

It would be kind of a fun project, if you could make it work. There are tons of VUEs out on the market with broken VTI tranny's. I have also wondered what other type of powertrain swap might lend itself to this body, and might make it worth the effort. You can make crazy power from the Mitsu 4g63 motor, and they were plentiful comming in the DSM cars. ......just brainstorming...
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:24 PM   #3
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

Research the VTI trans, and do not worry a thing about HP.

If you can, return that thing or sell it before it grenades.
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Old 02-13-2014, 09:45 PM   #4
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

It had the VTI Trans. My parents got the trans swapped out after it went to crap. Now it has an economical trans in it (not entirely sure what kinda trans they went for) and I'm pretty sure it's the ecotech 2.2. I considered grabbing a supercharger off of a Cobalt SS but I don't know just how much of a challenge that's going to be to add on. Being a learning mechanic, superchargers are a rough area for me still. I considered turbocharging it for a while, but the funds aren't currently there just yet. I have also contemplated getting a CAI but I don't want to shove out money for it if it won't prove useful. Thanks for the advice so far guys
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:05 PM   #5
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

Quote:
Originally Posted by B-Hamz View Post
It had the VTI Trans. My parents got the trans swapped out after it went to crap. Now it has an economical trans in it (not entirely sure what kinda trans they went for) and I'm pretty sure it's the ecotech 2.2. I considered grabbing a supercharger off of a Cobalt SS but I don't know just how much of a challenge that's going to be to add on. Being a learning mechanic, superchargers are a rough area for me still. I considered turbocharging it for a while, but the funds aren't currently there just yet. I have also contemplated getting a CAI but I don't want to shove out money for it if it won't prove useful. Thanks for the advice so far guys
I hope, (for your sake) they were able to swap in an AF23 tranny out of a 4door Ion. You may want to look into this, becaus this, and a 5-speed swap are really the only viable (known) options to replace the Vue VTI.

Forced induction will be a big challenging project, even for experienced performance enthusiasts. Maybe you should focus on improving the suspension and handling. Honestly, chasing HP over handling is a rookie mistake that many make (including me in my 20's).
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:11 PM   #6
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

More than likely it has another VTI transmission. Can you feel it shift gears when you accelerate or is it a constant noise/rpm?

Because the bulk of the people who drive VUEs are not concerned with adding power, you'll not find much. The motor is the same (for the most part) as more popular tuned ecotec equipped cars so some stuff should work. I looked into it a little when I had mine but never pulled the trigger on anything. But minor things like how the BCU and PCM talk to each other will make it a little more challenging. And because it's a Saturn, you'll be treated like a ******* stepchild if you need to get anything flashed at the dealer.

To say your path ahead is an uphill battle is putting it politely.
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Old 02-13-2014, 11:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

Yea Tom I sat and talked with my dad about it. He said they got another VTI in it :/ and I have considered hunting down different ways to adjust the suspension and toy with the handling but I've found nothing to lower it and it's definatley been an uphill battle so far. Another thing I wanted to know is, how do I get rid of the speed stop? I hit a 100 and the engine feels like it wants to fly offa the mounts (and we certainly can't have that happen!)
Thanks for being so supportive of someone so new to the Vue Game guys!
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Old 02-13-2014, 11:49 PM   #8
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

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Originally Posted by B-Hamz View Post
Thanks for being so supportive of someone so new to the Vue Game guys!
Honestly though, best thing is to get rid of it. That VTI is a ticking time bomb. When it blows (notice I didn't say "if"), it'll cost more to fix than it's worth. But seeing how your dad has already replaced it, he might be trying to get some value out of the cost of the replacement. Get rid of it while it still runs.

If you're looking for a car to mod and have fun with, a VUE really isn't it- unless you like to do lots of 100% custom work.

Heck, if you're looking for another small SUV, an Escape is a decent choice. Lowering AND lift springs, rear disc brakes on Mariners, tuners available, and an available 4wd system that isn't quirky unreliable. V6 and 4 cylinder available- auto and manual transmissions (even with the 4wd drivetrain).

The VUE is a good car but I don't miss mine.
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Old 02-14-2014, 10:52 AM   #9
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

Well I love doing custom work. It can be a massive headache, but the results can prove worthwhile when the proper effort is put in. I love my Vue and it's my first car. Plus dropping the $3500 into it just to buy it off my dad would be a huge bite to me. He'd probably be a lil upset if I sold it too lol. I wouldn't even get to break even on it at this point. So I think I'm just going to keep it and mod out whatever I can afford as the time goes on.
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Old 02-14-2014, 11:29 AM   #10
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

As nothing more than being another member here (no Vue but an L300), I've followed Vue w/vti xmission posts - all negative. The Vue itself is a fine vehicle but the cvt used was and is a black eye to GM's poor engineering choice of trying a cvt in a light suv. Any other xmission used has shown it to be a better overall option than cvt's. To date, no one here or elsewhere has ever reported what made Saturn Vues w/cvt's fail. No one. As someone interested/fascinated in mechanical engineering, a cvt is an other way to address automatic xmissions using proven mechanics but not in cars or suv's. Researching in general hasn't turned up any specifics on what failed. Continuously variable transmissions aren't new since they're used in every snowmobile around the world and at least one name brand vehicle, Nissan Maxima. Whether Nissans have serious cvt issues remains to be seen and I found little info on their sites about causes of failures. Complicating cvt's in cars are the higher loads requiring hydraulics to control sheave adjustment. Even the highly touted segmented steel belt drive isn't mentioned as a failure point anywhere. Having definitive answers that would make repairs almost a no-brainer would make cvt's just another xmission to deal with but without any information makes this next to impossible. Maybe cvt's are another 'Area 51' issue with closely held secrets and no one's allowed to know?

As advised by Vue members, your VTI Vue is a ticking time bomb with no way to know when or if this second cvt will fail. My sincere wish is that your Vue never sees cvt failure but be forewarned of past historical records - all posted by Vue members attesting to their headache$ related to owning cvt Vues. To "add insult to injury", modifying the engine for more power would more or less guarantee accelerating cvt failure due to higher torque generated by any mods made. Using some common sense, the poor reliability of cvt's in Vues with the basic 2.2L 4cyl engine implies poor power handling by the cvt. The engine is fine and used in many GM models but not the cvt. It doesn't take rocket science to extrapolate any power improvement to the engine means the cvt must handle it or......................
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:01 PM   #11
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

Agreed, sell the Vue while it runs, and look to get a V6 Vue if you really want to stay with this vehicle. The 2.2L Vue, with a decent transmission, is more of an eco focused car, so driving it conservatively (not at 100 MPH ) will yield pretty amazing MPG rates for a rolling box. The V6 Vues don't have more performance upgrade options, but they do have a lot more power. This may lead you to focus on handling mods.

There are some Megan lowering springs for the Vue line, and some members here have had decent luck with de-restricting the intake (search for de-bonging) and exhaust for the 3.5 Honda V6 in the later Vue's.

With the added reliability, it may be worth looking to upgrade, or switch to something else, as Tom92SCm stated.
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Old 02-14-2014, 03:14 PM   #12
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

Oh, and as far as removing the speed limiter, don't try at all unless you have advanced electronics familiarity. No one has ever meddled with Saturn ecm/pcm firmware to eliminate the programmed speed limiter. To even begin to know what's needed you'll have to have knowledge of what a vehicle speed sensor does and how its used for speed signals to the ecm/pcm. Once you're into advanced electronics, one clue that may help is either going the hard or easy way to eliminate a speed limiter. The hard way is programming. The easy way is the external sensor...............the rest, in theory, is up to a person with electronics familiarity and imagination. Disconnecting a vehicle speed sensor is not the answer.

We can design a true stealth fighter/bomber that's described in radar language as having a radar cross sectional image of a small bird. Its not rocket science to figure out to get around speed limiters.
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Old 02-15-2014, 02:44 PM   #13
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Oh, and as far as removing the speed limiter, don't try at all unless you have advanced electronics familiarity. No one has ever meddled with Saturn ecm/pcm firmware to eliminate the programmed speed limiter. To even begin to know what's needed you'll have to have knowledge of what a vehicle speed sensor does and how its used for speed signals to the ecm/pcm. Once you're into advanced electronics, one clue that may help is either going the hard or easy way to eliminate a speed limiter. The hard way is programming. The easy way is the external sensor...............the rest, in theory, is up to a person with electronics familiarity and imagination. Disconnecting a vehicle speed sensor is not the answer.

We can design a true stealth fighter/bomber that's described in radar language as having a radar cross sectional image of a small bird. Its not rocket science to figure out to get around speed limiters.
I'm questioning WHY one would even want to THINK about removing the speed limiter. I've pushed my Vue once to 100 MPH, and to be honest - even with 16 years of experience as a Professional Driver (up to and including Class A Commercial Vehicles), combined with training in Emergency Vehicle Operations, you can tell the Vue is NOT a vehicle to be driven in that manner. The handling characteristics simply don't support it, even in my skilled hands. One bad bump and you can easily find yourself going from "flying down the road' to R.I.P.

My '04 2.2L 5-speed is intended as a comfortable family cruiser - nothing more, nothing less. It does the job very well for that purpose.
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Old 02-16-2014, 10:42 PM   #14
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

Well I was hoping to find people supportive of my cause, not a bunch of nae-sayers telling me I should sell the car I fell in love with. Kinda a disappointment guys.
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Old 02-16-2014, 10:59 PM   #15
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

Quote:
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Well I was hoping to find people supportive of my cause, not a bunch of nae-sayers telling me I should sell the car I fell in love with. Kinda a disappointment guys.
You are taking friendly advice the wrong way. Your situation kind of stinks, getting stuck with a VTI tranny. Hopefully it will last you a while, and does not grenade and leave you without transportation. If you have been paying attention to this forum since you joined, there has been at LEAST one other new poster here recently with a dead VTI-Vue. This is NOT mythology. You have a really ticking timebomb on your Vue. If you really like your car, then you should be making every effort to prolong its life. ....Not ad more HP and run it into the ground even faster (ie: >100mph runs)

There is tons of stuff you can do to your vue. Have fun with it. Just be prepared. If I was in your shoes... I would be researching the AF23 conversion and keeping my eyes our for great deals on the parts needed. Your in no hurry right now. So just keep an eye out for the parts.

Don't get too discouraged. I have been working on my cars since I was 18 (back in '87). I made many mistakes. Sometimes following bad advice.... sometimes ignoring good advice. In the end.... you will have to decide your own path. I would bet that in 10 years... You might regret investing in HP performance mods on your 2.2L vue.

Please keep us posted!!
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:41 AM   #16
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

Quote:
Originally Posted by B-Hamz View Post
Well I was hoping to find people supportive of my cause, not a bunch of nae-sayers telling me I should sell the car I fell in love with. Kinda a disappointment guys.
What did you want us to tell you? Slap on a turbo, crank the boost up to 20 psi with a 300 shot of nitrous? The sad thing is, the engine has a decent shot of taking that power (well maybe not the 20 psi) but the transmission will puke if you're going uphill into a stiff breeze (ok maybe not).

The VUE isn't bad- but that transmission completely ruins it. We tried to sugar coat it, but there are TONS of posts/threads on this transmission talking about what garbage it is. We're not making it up just to rain on the new guy's parade. A transmission swap is possible but very involved. Like we said, sell it and get something else. Maybe it's another VUE or maybe it's something else. But if it were me, I'd get rid of it ASAP.
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Old 02-19-2014, 10:34 AM   #17
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom92SCm View Post
What did you want us to tell you? Slap on a turbo, crank the boost up to 20 psi with a 300 shot of nitrous? The sad thing is, the engine has a decent shot of taking that power (well maybe not the 20 psi) but the transmission will puke if you're going uphill into a stiff breeze (ok maybe not).

The VUE isn't bad- but that transmission completely ruins it. We tried to sugar coat it, but there are TONS of posts/threads on this transmission talking about what garbage it is. We're not making it up just to rain on the new guy's parade. A transmission swap is possible but very involved. Like we said, sell it and get something else. Maybe it's another VUE or maybe it's something else. But if it were me, I'd get rid of it ASAP.
I still say stick a 150 shot of nitrous on it and have fun.
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:34 PM   #18
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

Quote:
Originally Posted by B-Hamz View Post
Well I was hoping to find people supportive of my cause, not a bunch of nae-sayers telling me I should sell the car I fell in love with. Kinda a disappointment guys.
We're collectively sorry we can't blow sunshine up your ass
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:08 AM   #19
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

Ok I realized I've been looking at this the wrong way. Fact of the matter is, I can't get rid of it. Dad won't allow that. SOOOO I realized there HAS to be another trans that can go with the 2.2 Ecotec. Sorry for the comment earlier. You guys are right. You're looking at it logically. If there is another trans I can swap it out with what trans would that be? And obviously it wouldn't be worth the money pit it is but I am in love with it. And yes, a turbo would definatly be an option for extra horses XD
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:37 AM   #20
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Default Re: Dying for Horsepower!

There is really only two viable (proven) alternatives for the VTI in your car.

There is the AF23 that came in the 03/04 Ion 4-doors, and a 5-speed swap from another Vue.

There are a couple decent threads describing both conversions.

5-speed conversion
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92403

info on the AF23 swap: Jimmie504 seems to be the expert on this!
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=153388

Another source:
http://www.saturnforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6484

****************

Having said all this..... I think you should just drive this car and get as much out of it as you can. If you get another 1-2 years in it, you will be doing well. Just start putting a few bucks/wk into your "emergency fund". That way, you will have the money to either fix it, or just buy something else!!

I make few gaurantees to anybody. But, I GAURANTEE you will not regret putting money aside for an emergency fund. Just think of your Vue/VTI as a planned emergency that will happen at some point.
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