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Old 04-14-2018, 08:01 PM   #21
Saturn Night
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

Try swapping the filter to a WIX 51516 filter, for the K&N. I run Mobil-1 Advanced Full Synthetic 5w-30, currently, with the HP-1002 K&N Performance Gold oil filter.

The WIX part # is a larger filter, which will allow better filtration(larger filter element) amd increase oil capacity. This will keep the oil cooler and may slow your consumption a little bit as well.

ATF carries the viscosity(Dexron-III) of about 20w SAE. It's cleaning detergents DO work for removing dirt. I will be tearing apart my blown engine, that was using 1qt/80 miles at removal, because of a burnt valve. The engine got just over 24,000 miles put on it in just over one year(titled Nov. 1, 2016, engine pulled at the end of March this year). I ran ATF/Shell Rotella T Conventional 10w-30(Cheapest oil prices in my area, as synthetics are over $10/qt now). I will take pictures and post them. I already know, by looking at the valve stems(which are only carbon coated with no actual build-up on them, despite the valve stem seals and piston rings both being shot), and the PCV valve(which is sparkly stainless steel and no oil traces on it), that I will be looking at an internally clean engine.

Now, BEFORE we go any further, have you verified what your actual oil pressure is with a gauge?

Lifters tapping may be a sign of low oil pressure, as the amount of oil in the lifters is too low, thus causing the lifter to collapse under the pressure of the spring(this is what causes the tapping). However, the light will not turn on until you are under 6psi which pretty much means you already blew the engine bearings anyway. Normal idle(warm) psi is 13.

When I did my engine swap, the junkyard engine was completely drained of its oil, and had sat drained for almost 5 days when I started the car for the first time.

I had to pull the cylinder head, because the engine had a blown head gasket when I got it from the yard. That required pulling the timing cover, manifolds, and I pulled the oil pan(since sealing the timing cover is easier if you pull the pan). So, basically, my lifters were BONE DRY on initial crank(to build oil pressure and turn the oil light off), and were still tapping for almost 5-10 minutes after I started the car up.

Revving the engine up to 2,000-2,500rpms a few times got them to quiet down, and they have not been an issue since.

...
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"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."

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Old 04-14-2018, 08:24 PM   #22
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by KNGRK9 View Post
I am currently running Mobil 1 full synthetic 5w 30 along with a K&N 1002 oil filter I was previously using the fl400s and Castrol GTX full synthetic 5 W 30
Neither one of those oils are a full PAO synthetic, very few are as a mater of fact. Use this WIX filter 51516XP do note the XP suffix as it is important. If you want to go a bit lower in per quart price for experimentation then try Valvoline™ Modern Engine Full Synthetic Motor Oil in 5W-30 and see what changes. This is the latest oil/Valvoline product that meets all the new specs. Don't get sold something else as it will not have the identical properties. The front label will read as I posted, Modern Engine Full Synthetic Motor Oil.

Forget trying to actually measuring oil pressure as it requires metric adapters and is less than easy to get into where the pressure switch is located. Not worth the hassle at this point.

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Old 04-14-2018, 08:47 PM   #23
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Neither one of those oils are a full PAO synthetic, very few are as a mater of fact. Use this WIX filter 51516XP do note the XP suffix as it is important. If you want to go a bit lower in per quart price for experimentation then try Valvoline™ Modern Engine Full Synthetic Motor Oil in 5W-30 and see what changes. This is the latest oil/Valvoline product that meets all the new specs. Don't get sold something else as it will not have the identical properties. The front label will read as I posted, Modern Engine Full Synthetic Motor Oil.

Forget trying to actually measuring oil pressure as it requires metric adapters and is less than easy to get into where the pressure switch is located. Not worth the hassle at this point.
I may attempt to hook up an oil pressure gauge at some point. I'm thinking there is a loss of pressure somewhere. I should maybe do the valve cover gaskets as oil is frequently in the spark plug wells.

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Old 04-14-2018, 09:59 PM   #24
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

Leaking cover is most of your oil consumption. Until you have changed oil and filter followed by about 1000 miles of driving is it worth the effort and risk to build the adapters to actually check pressure. It is also critical that the back of the engine is clean so that noting falls into the oil gallery while fiddling around getting a gauge hooked up.

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Old 04-15-2018, 12:13 AM   #25
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Leaking cover is most of your oil consumption. Until you have changed oil and filter followed by about 1000 miles of driving is it worth the effort and risk to build the adapters to actually check pressure. It is also critical that the back of the engine is clean so that noting falls into the oil gallery while fiddling around getting a gauge hooked up.
I'll change out the valve cover and gasket here soon. Followed by oil change and new filter per your recommendation. I'll keep you all updated as ill hit 1000 within two weeks.

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Old 04-15-2018, 08:26 AM   #26
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

Plastic cover leaks are very difficult to stop and attempting to over tighten the cover bolts will only result in snapped bolts as the cover floats between the gasket and the isolators by design. Absolute cleanliness is required to get a seal.

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Old 04-15-2018, 10:00 PM   #27
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

My old 1999 Home Coming is still serving him well after driving me to Florida to deliver it to him. Who knew~

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Old 04-16-2018, 09:02 AM   #28
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

Some things last nearly forever.

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Old 04-16-2018, 12:29 PM   #29
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by KNGRK9 View Post
I may attempt to hook up an oil pressure gauge at some point. I'm thinking there is a loss of pressure somewhere. I should maybe do the valve cover gaskets as oil is frequently in the spark plug wells.
Use the Fel-Pro PermaDry gasket kit, when you do the valve cover. Use CLEAR nail polish remover on the gasket surface and allow to dry.

The plastic covers are prone to warping. You can set the valve cover on a flat surface(I used my kitchen counter), and push on one corner area to see what I am talking about.

Torque to 89 ft-lbs with the bolts.

Use Silver RTV at the mating surface of the timing cover to the cylinder head. Just a small dab. This area is prone to leak, because of the timing cover mating with the head and the valve cover at this joint.

Silver RTV it designed to be used on ALUMINUM surfaces, and yes it does make a difference from using the black which is designed for steel surfaces(and surfaces containing iron).

I learned this when I basically rebuilt my junkyard engine that is in my SC2, now, because I had to put a head gasket in the replacement engine.

...
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"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."

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Old 04-16-2018, 08:26 PM   #30
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
Use the Fel-Pro PermaDry gasket kit, when you do the valve cover. Use CLEAR nail polish remover on the gasket surface and allow to dry.

The plastic covers are prone to warping. You can set the valve cover on a flat surface(I used my kitchen counter), and push on one corner area to see what I am talking about.

Torque to 89 ft-lbs with the bolts.

Use Silver RTV at the mating surface of the timing cover to the cylinder head. Just a small dab. This area is prone to leak, because of the timing cover mating with the head and the valve cover at this joint.

Silver RTV it designed to be used on ALUMINUM surfaces, and yes it does make a difference from using the black which is designed for steel surfaces(and surfaces containing iron).

I learned this when I basically rebuilt my junkyard engine that is in my SC2, now, because I had to put a head gasket in the replacement engine.
Got the FelPro from AutoZone for 8$ (price match with rockauto) silver etc, and nail polish remover. Will be doing that job this Thursday.

...
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Old 04-16-2018, 08:42 PM   #31
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Post Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

89 INCH LBS!!! NOT FT LBS.

1995 SL1 235,000 Well Oiled!!
1997 SL1 63,890 Just A Teenager!!
CHECK YOUR OIL!!

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Old 04-16-2018, 10:44 PM   #32
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

DO NOT USE NAIL POLISH REMOVER! it has an oil in it and RTV will never bond. The lumberyard big box store sells acetone, get the correct product!

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Old 04-17-2018, 12:38 AM   #33
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRGW View Post
89 INCH LBS!!! NOT FT LBS.

1995 SL1 235,000 Well Oiled!!
1997 SL1 63,890 Just A Teenager!!
CHECK YOUR OIL!!
Thank you for correcting me. I just now realized that I made the mistake of putting the wrong torque specs.

OP - SRGW's quote is the Correct torque specs. INCH-POUNDS.

I was incorrect with mine. If you torque too much, like Nuc stated, you will snap the bolts off inside the head.

...
"What does a Saturn owner do, at the gas station?"

"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."

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Old 04-17-2018, 12:45 AM   #34
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

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DO NOT USE NAIL POLISH REMOVER! it has an oil in it and RTV will never bond. The lumberyard big box store sells acetone, get the correct product!
I did my oil pan, my front timing cover, my head gasket, intake gasket, exhaust gasket, Y-Pipe gasket, and head gasket surfaces with clear nail polish remover that was like $1 @ Dollar General.

Aside from leaking oil past my valve stem seals, there is not a single leak anywhere else with my engine.

I used black RTV on the oil pan, silver RTV on the aluminum-to-aluminum mating surfaces, and everything sealed up fine.

I even leaked some SAE 30 engine oil(that was used for coating my replacement cylinder head bolts) onto the block deck, and the head gasket is still sealed up properly without any leaks, Nuc.

...
"What does a Saturn owner do, at the gas station?"

"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."

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Old 04-17-2018, 06:43 AM   #35
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

There is no way to tell which type of nail polish remover you buy. So just use what is recommended or do not complain when the RTV does not bond and leaks. There are multiple better performing sealants than the usual RTV as well. RTV is another general sealant that is not that good a performer.

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Old 04-17-2018, 11:09 AM   #36
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

I gotta say.... they are all "RTV" (Room Temperature Vulcanizing). Without specifying the exact type/brand, discussion of the failure/success with "RTV" is meaningless.

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Old 04-17-2018, 01:20 PM   #37
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

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I gotta say.... they are all "RTV" (Room Temperature Vulcanizing). Without specifying the exact type/brand, discussion of the failure/success with "RTV" is meaningless.
Failure/Success depends on the type of RTV being used.

Example: Blue RTV is used for low temperature, non-oil applications, commonly used for water pumps and thermostats.

I have no odea why Orange RTV would be used, but somebody tried to sludge together a valve cover gasket on my stock engine, before I bought the car.

I have seen clear silicone used, but the 85w-90 gear oil in my rollforming mill gearboxes ate through it like battery acid eating through galvanized steel plates.

Black and Silver are oil-resistant and higher temperature, which allows them to be used on areas of the engine that come into contact with grease and oil.

There is even a copper-metallic RTV designed for exhaust systems and is extremely high-temp resistant. Never used it, though.

...
"What does a Saturn owner do, at the gas station?"

"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."

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Old 04-17-2018, 10:35 PM   #38
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

Quote:
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Failure/Success depends on the type of RTV being used.

Example: Blue RTV is used for low temperature, non-oil applications, commonly used for water pumps and thermostats.

I have no odea why Orange RTV would be used, but somebody tried to sludge together a valve cover gasket on my stock engine, before I bought the car.
That is RTV 108 that is in most instances is now made sensor safe. It is the original high temperature RTV that will still work better than the copper RTV in most cases.

I have seen clear silicone used, but the 85w-90 gear oil in my rollforming mill gearboxes ate through it like battery acid eating through galvanized steel plates.

Black and Silver are oil-resistant and higher temperature, which allows them to be used on areas of the engine that come into contact with grease and oil.

There is even a copper-metallic RTV designed for exhaust systems and is extremely high-temp resistant. Never used it, though.
The 700F RTV is gray and relatively new. Permatex Optimum Grey #27036
Permatex Ultra Copper is also good for 700F #81878
Best to read the TDS before ordering or using.

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Old 04-18-2018, 06:54 AM   #39
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

This will probably generate howls from some folks, but I've had two different Saturn twin cams that had a lifter tick when I got them. Neither car had a very attentive previous owner and the lifters were gunked up with sludge. In both cases, I replaced a quart of oil in the crankcase with Marvel Mystery Oil (a solvent) and drove the car like that for a day or two. The tick disappeared almost immediately in both cases and after a couple of days I changed the oil and filter. The tick never returned.

If there's a mechanical issue with a lifter, this won't solve your problem, but it's worth a try.

Best,

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Old 04-20-2018, 01:47 PM   #40
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Default Re: Saturn SL2 1999 Timing Chain Replacement

There was definitely some oil leaking going on at the valve gasket.

Main areas seemed to be near the AC compressor, near the motor mount, back towards the alternator and all along the rear over top of the fuel injectors and fuel rail. (so they got a cleaning also.)

There was nothing seemingly wrong with the old gasket (it was a Fel Pro) the only issue I found was there was another older gasket inside of the valve cover which took a lot of work to get out and where those leaks are, are where that old gasket was.

Thank you all for the guidance and I made sure to torque it all down to 89 ft-lbs (kidding, definitely 89-inch lbs)
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...
1999 SL2 HCE - 232k

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