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Old 02-08-2013, 03:13 PM   #1
ericfragola
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Dizzy Headache P0420

Hi guys, I have a code P0420 in my 07 saturn vue. I have an Innova brand scanner. a 3120b to be exact. Here are the values in which my scanner has given me. I'm not sure what each letter stands for. But here it goes.

Also, im getting code P0455. I got it after replacing the gas cap though...can it be linked to the cat problem?

On the Freeze Frames i'm getting:

Fuel sys 1 : NA
Fuel sys 2 : NA
Calc Load (%) : 0.0
ECT (Farenheit) : 154
STFT B1 (%) : 0.0
LTFT B1 (%) : -7.0
STFT B2 (%) : 0.0
LTFT B2 (%) : -9.4
MAP(inHg) : 29.5
Eng RPM : 0
Veh Speed (mph) : 0
Spark Adv (degrees) : 0.0
IAT (Farenheit) : 120
TPS % : 0.0
LAMBDA B1 S1 : 1.999
O2S B1 S1 (mA) : -0.02
LAMBDA B2 S1 : 1.999
O2S B2 S1 (mA) : -0.01


Also, I went to the IPT screen on the tool and got these values as well

OBDCOND : 1312
IGNCNTR : 4188
CATCOMP1 : 772
CATCOND1 :1310
CATCOMP2 : 767
CATCOND2: 1312
O2SCOMP1: 2549
O2SCOND1 : 1312
O2SCOMP2 : 2541
O2SCOND2 : 1312
EGRCOMP : 2651
EGRCOND : 1312
AIRCOMP : 0
AIRCOND : 0
EVAPCOMP : 188
EVAPCOND : 455


I'm looking to see which one is for the values of the 02 sensor downstream in bank one. To compare to my bank 1 upstream value to see if it really is the cat since I dont have one of those oscio tools.

Also, we have replaced all 4 O2 sensors.

These values were all taken before the car was running. Since then, I have ran the car, got 91 octane fuel and came back but the values were all the same. I also scanned it while it was runnning and got these values. I have cleared the codes and when the CEL comes back on today/tonight i'll repost the new values taken while the car in warm and running.

I'm just trying to make 100% sure it's the cat, because a new California cat is very expensive. Don't want to replace it if it's something else.

Thanks!

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Old 02-08-2013, 03:30 PM   #2
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Default Re: Headache P0420

Also, forgot to mention. It's my dads car. Drives it like a grandma, Has had very good maintenance. Spark plugs, timing belt, etc. Does not burn any oil or coolant, and no performance isssues. Drives just like the day it was new. Even after 150k on the original plugs, pulled them out and they looked great. Hes the original owner also, got it new off the lot. I was looking at the magnaflow book for cat failure problems. and weve pretty much canceled out the option of it being clogged or melted. Seems like the only possible explanation is carbon buildup. But we did sea foam it and not much came out. should we try to sea foam it one more time? or what do you guys think
currently has 155k miles on it.

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Old 02-08-2013, 03:59 PM   #3
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Default Re: Headache P0420

Can you visually inspect the cat and exhaust for leaks. Any leak of exhaust between the forward O2 sensor and the rear will cause this. Also slap the cat with a mallet and listen for anything breaking up.

Once you've ensured the exahust system if free of leaks and the pig tails on the sensors is good the next step is normally to graph the cat efficiency to see if its smooth (meaning bad cat) or erratic (indicating bad sensor readings).

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Old 02-08-2013, 04:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: Headache P0420

Replace gas cap with dealer item by the VIN. As for as p0420 I would check wiring of rear 02 sensor bank 1 and also check for exhaust leaks.

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Old 02-08-2013, 07:15 PM   #5
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Default Re: Headache P0420

Try another freeze frame scan but with the engine fully warmed up - since a P0420 occurs only when the engine's running it would make sense to see a freeze frame scan of all the sensors once the engine's up to operating temperatures. And describe where the temperature needle sits after warming up.

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Old 02-18-2013, 02:35 PM   #6
ericfragola
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Default Re: Headache P0420

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Try another freeze frame scan but with the engine fully warmed up - since a P0420 occurs only when the engine's running it would make sense to see a freeze frame scan of all the sensors once the engine's up to operating temperatures. And describe where the temperature needle sits after warming up.
Got it, next time I get home after driving it around and its nice and warm I'll rescan and post the new values.


As far as graphing it goes, I dont have an oscillograph tool. Any idea where I could get one and how much they are?


All wiring to sensors is good, all 4 brand new sensors.

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Old 02-18-2013, 02:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: Headache P0420

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertGary1 View Post
Can you visually inspect the cat and exhaust for leaks. Any leak of exhaust between the forward O2 sensor and the rear will cause this. Also slap the cat with a mallet and listen for anything breaking up.

Once you've ensured the exahust system if free of leaks and the pig tails on the sensors is good the next step is normally to graph the cat efficiency to see if its smooth (meaning bad cat) or erratic (indicating bad sensor readings).

-Robert

You know, we did sea foam the motor a few weeks ago to see if that would help clean it out. not much smoke came out when we did it. I'm wondering if i should do it again when its warm and as were flushing out the smoke see if i can physically see it coming out of anywhere like exhaust flanges.

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Old 02-19-2013, 11:06 AM   #8
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Default Re: Headache P0420

Well i rescanned it this morning after driving for an hour and a half. came up with codes: P0455, P0442 and P0420

P0455 - "Evaporative emission system leak detected (gross leak/no flow)"
P0422 - "Evaporative emission system leak detected (small leak)
P0420 - "Catalyst system efficiency below threshold (bank 1)

I tried to get the laser temperature gun onto the cat, but wasn't able to get it directly on it and was getting about 500 degrees Fahrenheit.

I am going to do an exhaust back pressure test today as well.

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Old 02-19-2013, 01:46 PM   #9
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Default Re: Headache P0420

What brand O2 sensors? They have to be OE, not the universal types.

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Old 02-19-2013, 04:51 PM   #10
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Default Re: Headache P0420

Quote:
Originally Posted by golftango View Post
What brand O2 sensors? They have to be OE, not the universal types.
Bosch. And they were the exact fit ones, not universal. They looked dead on exactly the same as the ones that came off.

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Old 02-19-2013, 04:53 PM   #11
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Default Re: Headache P0420

Also, after doing some reading, i came across the coolant temperature sensor as one of the 3 likely suspects. Odd, but is that possible? im assuming its in the same circuit?

its just confusing as to why one cat would go before the other especially when its been taken VERY good care of since we got it brand new off the lot. only owner. and it doesnt burn ANY thing. Oil and coolant are always full. unlike my 98 SL.

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Old 02-19-2013, 11:06 PM   #12
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Default Re: Headache P0420

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericfragola View Post
Also, after doing some reading, i came across the coolant temperature sensor as one of the 3 likely suspects. Odd, but is that possible? im assuming its in the same circuit?

its just confusing as to why one cat would go before the other especially when its been taken VERY good care of since we got it brand new off the lot. only owner. and it doesnt burn ANY thing. Oil and coolant are always full. unlike my 98 SL.
A few thoughts:

I'm thinking there is a way the EVAP system could be letting raw gas make its way to the intake system ... this needs a bit more research.

Its a fact a significant "cat-killer" is unburned fuel being passed along to a cat (or perhaps ingesting large amounts of engine cleaner through engine vacuum ports ).

Too much gas can be caused by a leaky injector, bad sparkplug, engine remaining in open-loop due to bad O2 sensor, faulty engine coolant temp (ECT) sensor or a very slight chance of previously mentioned EVAP issue.

Re ECT ... you probably know the single ECT sensor drives engine management and temp gauge so if IPC indications are normal you could eliminate the sensor as a suspect.

Cats fail in at least three ways: (1) clogged from overheating (fuel or other), (2) catalyst contaminated or worn out, (3) combination of (1) and (2).

An almost painless way to for obstructed cat is to use a vacuum gage. I've also read that a good cat will be 100F hotter on exhaust end (eg: 500 near input end and 600 at bottom).

In your case - you could compare bank 1 and 2 cats - since one sets code and other does not.

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Old 02-20-2013, 12:44 PM   #13
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Default Re: Headache P0420

I've been dealing with this for my (and now my aunt's) Subaru(s)...

Here's what I've done, and will be doing>
1) Replace the air filter
2) I replaced the fuel filter, but this isn't easily done on a Vue
3) Clean or replace the PCV valve
4) Run a Seafoam Spray treatment in the throttle body
5) (for my aunt's) replace the thermostat

It appears (at least for Subarus) that a failing thermostat is linked to the ECM based on engine temp. Running too cool is causing the issue.

You may also want to look into a new coolant bottle (radiator) cap.

http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/...ter-p0420.html

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Old 02-20-2013, 01:28 PM   #14
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Default Re: Headache P0420

Quote:
Originally Posted by far2grumpy View Post
I'm thinking there is a way the EVAP system could be letting raw gas make its way to the intake system ... this needs a bit more research.
There sure is, check post 4 in this thread...http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=177781

These guys say half the time P0420 is caused by dirty engine and fuel system components: P0420 link

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Old 02-20-2013, 01:46 PM   #15
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Default Re: Headache P0420

Quote:
Originally Posted by far2grumpy View Post

An almost painless way to for obstructed cat is to use a vacuum gage. I've also read that a good cat will be 100F hotter on exhaust end (eg: 500 near input end and 600 at bottom).

In your case - you could compare bank 1 and 2 cats - since one sets code and other does not.
Did an exhaust back pressure test yesterday. hardly even a single pound of back pressure! That was upstream on bank 1. And we put the tester inside the O2 socket. and made sure it had an airtight seal. So that was a bit confusing.

As far as the temps go, you're saying it should be about 500 going in and 600 coming out?

Also, as far as the leak goes. This CEL came on after we were rear ended. Not directly. But the car had backed into our small trailer. The trailer tongue bent over 45 degrees. Maybe the jolt knocked an exhaust pipe a bit crooked. Just enough to not know there's an exhaust leak. Just a though. My dad thinks it broke the Cat internally but Ive messed with an old cat and tried punching it out. Didnt get anywhere. Those internals are solid.And also the backpressure test confirms no built up pressure.

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Old 02-20-2013, 01:50 PM   #16
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Default Re: Headache P0420

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedGeminiPA View Post
I've been dealing with this for my (and now my aunt's) Subaru(s)...

Here's what I've done, and will be doing>
1) Replace the air filter
2) I replaced the fuel filter, but this isn't easily done on a Vue
3) Clean or replace the PCV valve
4) Run a Seafoam Spray treatment in the throttle body
5) (for my aunt's) replace the thermostat

It appears (at least for Subarus) that a failing thermostat is linked to the ECM based on engine temp. Running too cool is causing the issue.

You may also want to look into a new coolant bottle (radiator) cap.

http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/...ter-p0420.html
You know, I was in fact going to try the coolant system first. We did the water pump when we did the timing belt but didn't do the thermostat. Going to do a new thermostat, coolant cap, and temp sensor. Then cross my fingers and see. And even thought the air filter is not dirty, wouldn't hurt to replace it. They are fairly cheap. And we have sea foamed it once, through the throttle body. Hardly any smoke came out. Did it to my SL and oh boy. smoked out the neighborhood. The fuel filter isnt a bad idea also. Probably needs to be done anyways. And i didnt think they had a PCV. Never saw one but i loked it up and sure enough theres the replacement part on oreillys website. Will try that as well. thanks for the forum link, ill give it a read

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Old 02-20-2013, 01:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: Headache P0420

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3RedLines View Post
There sure is, check post 4 in this thread...http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=177781

These guys say half the time P0420 is caused by dirty engine and fuel system components: P0420 link
Wow, interesting. He said
"Replace the canister purge solenoid in the engine compartment. Sometimes they stick open, when you fill the car up with gas the fuel vapors go into the intake manifold creating a rich condition causing the extended crank time."

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Old 02-20-2013, 03:36 PM   #18
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Default Re: Headache P0420

An '07 Vue with 155k miles, four new O2 OEM sensors, back pressure test passes on bank 1 for P0420 error (still occurring), and P0422/P0455 remains.

A fuel pressure test can help otherwise replace the fuel filter as you go through the to-do list. Where's the temperature gauge needle sitting when the engine's fully warmed up? It won't hurt to probe with your IR hand held temp sensor on the t-stat housing or heater hoses (one will always be hotter than the other due to constantly circulating coolant).

You mentioned rear ending and bending the trailer tongue. There may be hidden damage related to the two evap system codes - hoses and hard plastic fittings.........

Another Vue member a few years back posted absolutely no leak in his a/c system when posting about refilling. A year later and another refill was needed; it wasn't mentioned in the initial post that he 'bumped' into a car. Upon further troubleshooting, a year later, with a small uv light at night he found the leak - in a corner of the condenser coil where the 'bump' too place. It was a time consuming and expensive repair, showing the entire front end was removed to access the c-coil.

If your Vue is either a 3.5L or 3.6L V6 then you have three catcons? One coffee can sized pre-cat after each exhaust manifold and one main one in the exhaust line?

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Old 02-21-2013, 11:11 AM   #19
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Default Re: Headache P0420

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If your Vue is either a 3.5L or 3.6L V6 then you have three catcons? One coffee can sized pre-cat after each exhaust manifold and one main one in the exhaust line?
The 3.5 has two cats - bank 1 and bank 2 - one downstream resonator and then the muffler.

There's an illustration in post 3 of this thread:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=185779

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Old 02-21-2013, 11:38 AM   #20
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Default Re: Headache P0420

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Originally Posted by ericfragola View Post
As far as the temps go, you're saying it should be about 500 going in and 600 coming out?
No - my bad - the numbers were not meant to represent what you would see - just the cat exit temps are projected to be at least 100 deg hotter.

The actual cat temps (after warm-up) tend to be way higher than 500-600 (range of approx 530 - 1560F). See first thumbnail for more HO2S-2 temp data.

Also, I finally got around to checking the codes you mentioned in earlier post. According to service manual the P0420 could be bogus - it should not set until you've troubleshot and repaired P0442. See second thumbnail.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 3.5 HO2S-2.jpg (51.6 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg 3.5 P0420.jpg (61.0 KB, 12 views)

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