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Old 12-02-2008, 01:36 AM   #1
08AstraFan
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Default Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

I've only had my Astra a few weeks and love it...Mine is a manual and I just got a loaner with an auto trans; I was amazed at this difference: manual as expected is much nicer going through the gears but Auto tachs way lower at freeway speed - my manual version is really spun up at 75+ and gets pretty loud but the auto is only around 3k or so at 75 and quite comfortable. Anyone else notice this difference? still prefer my manual but tend to keep it close to legal on the highway due to my rpms...

By the way - anyone find a good foot rest option?

Mike

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Old 12-02-2008, 08:18 AM   #2
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

it's in the final drive gearing. the stick shift is about 3.90 to 1. the a/t is probably 3.45 to 1. i am sure gerry proctor can give u the exact gear ratio for the a/t final drive.

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Old 12-02-2008, 08:55 AM   #3
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

AT: 3.94:1 MT: 4.12:1 which would be about 100 rpm just in the final drive if you do the math. But there is also a difference in trans high gear with the manual coming in a .89 and the auto at .74, which is where the difference gets compounded.

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Old 12-02-2008, 09:26 AM   #4
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

STOP SPEEDING!!

j/k.

I noticed the same thing when I had my loaner. I love my 5-speed.

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Old 12-02-2008, 05:04 PM   #5
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

same here .i tought the auto feeled slower but people didnot like me saying that it. i love my 5 speed

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Old 12-02-2008, 11:21 PM   #6
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

Quote:
Originally Posted by 08AstraFan View Post
I've only had my Astra a few weeks and love it...I just got a loaner with an auto trans
Hey Mike, why do you have a loaner after a few weeks?

Just curious...

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Old 12-05-2008, 07:05 PM   #7
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

is the auto a 5 speed or 6?

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Old 12-05-2008, 08:08 PM   #8
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

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Originally Posted by boa891 View Post
is the auto a 5 speed or 6?
its 4 speed i think

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Old 12-06-2008, 01:34 AM   #9
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

Yeah, the auto is a 4 speed, that was one reason I was curious why its hwy rpms were so much lower - thanks for the responses!

Mine had two issues - the two black strips on either side of the roof has these water spots all over them that would not come off - i tried scratch remover etc but even when they cleaned up a little you could see it was actually etched - craters all over the place. The dealer checked all on the lot and they all had it!!
Maybe salt spray from the trip over?

I also had a minor crease on my hood that was about 2.5" long - it looked like where they (spot welded?) the inner and outer parts of the hood that it puckered a little or something - perfectly painted and really looked like it must have occurred at the factory. The dealer agreed to fix both items and gave me a loaner to get the body guy to fix up the hood - i pick it up tomorrow.

I got a good deal from Saturn but the dealer hit me for $798 for pinstriping & that number etching on the windows, engine etc. So the red tag price isn't really the price you pay 'cause the dealer takes a shot at you but overall I'm pleased...

Mike

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Old 12-06-2008, 02:40 AM   #10
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

With the dealer add-ons it helps to know the secrets. I got my pinstripe $99, at cost $25. Got my wheel locks, $59 at cost, $46.48. And got the etching $299, at cost $254.15. I mean I wasn't getting away with a steal, but all it took was letting the finance lady know that the dealer add-ons don't cost that much, and you know because you used to work at a dealership. And letting them know that they have a 2% hold back shows that you know what you're talking about and the ins and outs of the deals.

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Old 12-06-2008, 07:03 AM   #11
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

I have to give my dealer credit, because they got the car from another dealer for me and it apparently had vin etching, paint protectant, and cloth protectant on it from the other dealer. It was on the final paperwork when I went to pick up the car.

I told the salesman that I didn't want that stuff, and the salesman said it was already on the car. I said that we had never discussed it prior to this point, and it should have been discussed prior to this point, and the salesman said he would have to talk to his finance manager. (I was expecting him to come back with a lower price for the stuff at this point, and I was willing to pay something, because they had sent someone almost 100 miles to pick up the car from another dealership, and I understand that this costs money). He came back and said that he wouldn't be charging me anything for any of the dealer "extras" and he took it off the paperwork. I told him thank you and that I would be giving him a "completely satisified review". And when I got my survey, I did my part and gave him a completely satisfied review. Even though they didn't do some of the things on the list (tours, explaining features, etc), I was completely satisfied with the buying experience, and it was fast too. I had my paperwork signed and was on my way in less than 30 minutes.

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Old 12-06-2008, 07:48 AM   #12
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

Having owned a few previous small bore, High revving European Cars, the 3000+ rpm does not bother me at all. With the road trip we made back in October, the Astra saw some extended runs at 70-80 with no problem. Matter of fact, I never had to downshift to pass or climb a hill at those conditions.

I am VERY pleased with the Stick in this car.

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Old 12-06-2008, 11:37 AM   #13
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

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Originally Posted by cschmidt1956 View Post
Having owned a few previous small bore, High revving European Cars, the 3000+ rpm does not bother me at all. With the road trip we made back in October, the Astra saw some extended runs at 70-80 with no problem. Matter of fact, I never had to downshift to pass or climb a hill at those conditions.

I am VERY pleased with the Stick in this car.

i totally agree with you. when the rpm is high enough you can stay in 5th speed and everyting is fine with the acceleration

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Old 12-06-2008, 10:56 PM   #14
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

Thanks for the info on the etch scam etc.... I kinda knew it was bogus but the car was so far discounted from MSRP (and since Saturn is "non-haggle") I figured it futile. The vin "coverage" paper says it can be cancelled - anyone know if that can be done?. I've already done my survey so I used that bullet. It'd be nice if Saturn could reign in dealers a little - $450 seems really over the top for window etch...

Mike

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Old 12-06-2008, 11:55 PM   #15
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

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Originally Posted by emg77 View Post
I was completely satisfied with the buying experience, and it was fast too. I had my paperwork signed and was on my way in less than 30 minutes.
WOW! I spent 5 hours at the dealership. The first 30-45 minutes was looking at their 5 different astras, yeah only 5 and getting one to test drive. Loved it and then picked out the one I wanted. Of course I drove an XR because I wanted an XR. Then came the hard part, with a credit score of 752 and a bankruptcy risk score of 292 I couldn't get financing. So I went on with my mom who has a lower bankruptcy score, both are really low, and still couldn't get it. Had to go with another bank, and 30 minutes after we submitted, still nothing. So the finance lady said for us to fill another app out for the both of us on the loan just in case. Now I had been pre-approved by my own bank, so she said that is the backup. 5 hours after we got there, I drove off the lot with a new car and no financing actually in place.

Now that Saturday I was the only customer there in those 5 hours. Get a call Monday to find out that we did get the financing from the 2nd bank, and at the lower rate my own bank pre-approved me. She told me they had another customer later that same day spend another 3 hours with great credit trying to get a loan.

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Old 12-07-2008, 08:55 AM   #16
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

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Originally Posted by emg77 View Post
I have to give my dealer credit, because they got the car from another dealer for me and it apparently had vin etching, paint protectant, and cloth protectant on it from the other dealer. It was on the final paperwork when I went to pick up the car.

I told the salesman that I didn't want that stuff, and the salesman said it was already on the car. I said that we had never discussed it prior to this point, and it should have been discussed prior to this point, and the salesman said he would have to talk to his finance manager. (I was expecting him to come back with a lower price for the stuff at this point, and I was willing to pay something, because they had sent someone almost 100 miles to pick up the car from another dealership, and I understand that this costs money). He came back and said that he wouldn't be charging me anything for any of the dealer "extras" and he took it off the paperwork. I told him thank you and that I would be giving him a "completely satisified review". And when I got my survey, I did my part and gave him a completely satisfied review. Even though they didn't do some of the things on the list (tours, explaining features, etc), I was completely satisfied with the buying experience, and it was fast too. I had my paperwork signed and was on my way in less than 30 minutes.
Much of that "dealer options" sticker is simply additional profit or negotiating room. The salesman at the dealership where I looked at an Astra and eventually bought an Aura told me as much after I told him I wasn't paying a cent for their $500 wax job (likely, at most, the automatic car wash spray on if anything). And, I didn't pay a cent for it . . .

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Old 12-07-2008, 09:39 AM   #17
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

The reason that manual transmission versions of cars have to rev higher is so that drivers don't have to downshift as much. Automatics can get away with revving lower because the torque converter can provide a boost of torque when it is unlocked. This makes it so that downshifting is not required.

The notion that manual tranny cars are always more efficient is wrong and this is part of the reason why. On the highway, automatics are better and in the city, manuals are generally better, especially because in gear deceleration can happen without fuel and because the idling engine doesn't have to spin the torque converter, (which imposes a load), while in drive.

I wrote an article on an automotive blog I started a long time ago, but don't write much for anymore...

http://uh2l.blogs.com/realitydriven/..._transmis.html

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Old 12-09-2008, 10:34 AM   #18
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

" Automatics can get away with revving lower because the torque converter can provide a boost of torque when it is unlocked. This makes it so that downshifting is not required."

I don't understand this. When unlocked, a torque converter is constantly slipping, wasting rpm's. How can it "boost" the torque when it is inherently wasting energy due to slippage?

A manual/clutch transmission never slips in normal driving, in any gear, so every rpm is fully used.

Remember, the "specified torque" given for the vehicle is measured at the ENGINE'S output, not the transmission's output.

~N~

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Old 12-09-2008, 10:57 AM   #19
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

Defining the application is important here. A torque converter multiplies torque, which makes it entirely different from a fluid coupling. But once the stator and turbine are up to speed, this multiplication stops. Torque converters will multiply torque in the 2-2.5 range. Which means if the engine makes 100lb/ft, you will actually see 200-250lb/ft in multiplication in 1st gear up to the point the converter flashes to stall speed. This multiplication is very brief on take off and you have full turbine/stator speed usually within 30 feet or so. You will see multiplication only when there is a significant difference in the turbine/stator speeds.

The unlocking, something separate from torque multiplication, gives you an immediate 300 or so rpm difference in engine speed. I suppose this could be confused with some phenomenon in how the torque converter operates if the increase in rpm puts you in a fatter part of the torque curve.

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Old 12-09-2008, 04:04 PM   #20
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Default Re: Manual vs. Auto trans - interesting diff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Proctor View Post
Defining the application is important here. A torque converter multiplies torque, which makes it entirely different from a fluid coupling. But once the stator and turbine are up to speed, this multiplication stops. Torque converters will multiply torque in the 2-2.5 range. Which means if the engine makes 100lb/ft, you will actually see 200-250lb/ft in multiplication in 1st gear up to the point the converter flashes to stall speed. This multiplication is very brief on take off and you have full turbine/stator speed usually within 30 feet or so. You will see multiplication only when there is a significant difference in the turbine/stator speeds.

The unlocking, something separate from torque multiplication, gives you an immediate 300 or so rpm difference in engine speed. I suppose this could be confused with some phenomenon in how the torque converter operates if the increase in rpm puts you in a fatter part of the torque curve.
you seems to be a very good tech Gerry cause thats what i learned when i was working on detroit diesel/allison tranny some months ago.

BTW i see in your signature that you are from Texas and im going there january 6 to february 10.what is the temp out there??

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