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Old 03-13-2019, 01:55 AM   #1
Attloyden
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1997 SW2
Sad 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

So i drive home from work carefully because of cops, and i park it in the driveway like always. the next morning when i try to start it, the starter seems to be moving the engine a little too easy, and it just keeps turning over and over without starting.

Things i checked

1 Fuel pressure. Pressed down the valve while cranking and it sprayed everywhere.

2 Spark test, confirmed there is no spark.

3 CPS sensor, tried testing the sensor from the harness end as it comes off the ignition control module, there are five terminals. ABCDE Orange, brown, red, black and white. The pictures in the complete teardown and rebuild manual suggest that the resistance between A-B yellow/purple (which aren't there maybe orange/brown now) should be about 700-900 ohms. When i test those two wires i get a resistance of just 4ohms. The reading does not change with the sensor removed. I tested the sensor both for impulse and resistance and both check out fine. 756 ohms and up to 1 volt impulse.

4 PCM with the key in the ON position the check engine light, oil, and battery warning lights all come on. The only thing i don't like is my chime does not work but has never worked since i got the vehicle except on very rare occasions. the five pin connector outputs 12v and 5-6v and ground is confirmed.

5 timing chain, yes i removed the valve cover because someone mentioned if the engine seems easier to turn over then the timing chain could have snapped and you will get fuel but no spark, and i thought the engine was toast However it's intact and in good condition.

Additional information. I recently replaced two ignition coils and an ignition module because it kept dieing out every time the engine got warm, but it was only two cylinders that were out. Oh and a very fluffy cat spent the night inside the car before it died . I did check the wires under the dash and around the console but none were loose.

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Old 03-13-2019, 09:30 AM   #2
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

Had a similar experience twice where I think some valves in the engine stuck open; likely exhaust valves. Felt like engine had no compression; soft puff puff puff sound rather than the usual chug chug chug. It seemed to resolve itself; I put the gas peddle to the floor and cranked and it eventually started really rough, had to keep on the gas to keep RPM's up and then it smoothed out. It was a couple years between occurrences. If you keep cranking without the gas peddle to the floor you will flood your engine with gas and it won't start.

...
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:06 AM   #3
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

Let it warm up and it will be fine. Cranking will not fix it. Changing the oil with preheated new oil will fix it faster. It is a feature of many 97 engines to have the exhaust valves not fully close. Blowing heater air onto the engine helps.

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Old 03-13-2019, 12:16 PM   #4
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

Attloyden, I'm not sure about your info but here are three wiring diagrams. If you examine the EIS diagram of the five pin connector, pins A and B are power and ground. Pins C, D, and E are signals between pcm and ignition control module. The crank sensor connects to the pcm. With a good resistance measurement of the crank sensor, wiring and fuse issues are suspect.

One way to determine crank sensor failure, besides measuring resistance, is to test for spark and check for fuel (injector operation) by examining spark plugs. A working crank sensor allows; the pcm to turn on fuel pump, initiate spark timing and pulse injectors. A dead crank sensor will not allow the pcm to run the EFI system; no pump, no spark, no injectors. If you see spark, the crank sensor is fine. If you see/smell fuel on spark plugs, the crank sensor is fine. The pcm will run the fuel pump for two seconds every time ignition is turned on whether the crank sensor is operating or not. If you do not see spark and do not see or smell raw fuel on spark plugs after several starting attempts, the crank sensor and/or wiring are likely possibilities.

If you see spark, the ignition system is fine but the fuel system is suspect. The fuel system consists of the fuel pump supplying fuel under pressure to the injectors and the pcm pulsing injectors.

If you see or smell raw fuel on spark plugs, the fuel system and pcm pulsing injectors ignition are fine but the ignition system is suspect.

As a new member, are you aware of the infamous coolant sensor failures? All S-series engines suffered from the original round nosed plastic one that fails, cracks and sends incorrect signals to the pcm. The majority of failed sensors tends to tell the pcm the engine is freezing with the pcm sending more fuel than needed on startups, often flooding the engine. Engines that do start and run have higher than normal idle, poor fuel mileage and other issues. The flat nosed brass sensor corrects this problem, restoring instant starting associated with EFI systems.

You may have a flooded engine from the original coolant sensor. Holding throttle wide open tells the pcm to shut off injectors while starting, allowing drowned spark plugs to dry out to allow spark to occur and ignite a leaner air/fuel mixture. Remove the coolant sensor and examine it.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg EIS.jpg (160.4 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg PCM.jpg (151.8 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg PCM1.jpg (182.9 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg plastic-brass cts.jpg (82.3 KB, 3 views)

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Old 03-13-2019, 07:25 PM   #5
Attloyden
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1997 SW2
Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

Right now i just can't get a spark. The last time i had coil and ignition module failure, so both coils and the module have been replaced in the last 6 months. There is fuel pressure at the test valve and it is making it into the cylinders.

I do believe i went to check on the coolant temp sensor to find it had already been replaced.

I found two loose wires in the passenger compartment and all they do is turn the chime back on when connected, but still no spark. I checked every fuse. Under the hood and on the center console.

Can new ignition modules suddenly fail and leave you with no spark?

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Old 03-13-2019, 08:06 PM   #6
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

It's anyone's guess with new parts. All you can do is substitute them with known good parts and measure voltage supplied to the ignition module.

If you see and smell fuel on spark plugs then the crank sensor is working. Injectors cannot operate unless the pcm is receiving timing signals from the crank sensor.

With fuel supplied to cylinders, check wiring between pcm and ignition module. Be sure fuses are good and not blown (injector and icm) as shown on the wiring diagrams.

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Old 03-13-2019, 09:20 PM   #7
Attloyden
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1997 SW2
Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

Terminals a and c put out 12 volts and 5 volts to ground. I tried a resistance test across all terminals with ignition off and except between terminals a and b resistance measures between 1000 and 3000 ohms, between a and b 4 ohms.

I'm guessing that's the resistance of the PCM with attached sensors, then the actual power circuit.

I'm torn between getting another car and trying a swap test, but if that part failed so quickly then does that mean there is an issue? I have an exhaust leak near the transmission, the braided part of the exhaust is torn at the top so anchor for the ignition module gets hot to the touch pretty quickly, however nothing is melted or anything and they still look new, something somewhere just suddenly failed.

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Old 03-24-2019, 07:38 PM   #8
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

So, maybe the 'new' IgMod didn't fix the problem... because:
(a) it defective, or
(b) wiring issues
(c) rare fault in ECU (powertrain control module)

My '97SW never had any harness issues & never miss fired (after Magnatek Ig Wires installed).

Was the 'new' IgMod aftermarket, OEM , or junkyard (used OEM) ??

If part not new-OEM, i'd get used OEM, and clean up .

If that not work, i maybe try a used-from-junkyard PCM (ECU).

the output transistors firing the IgMod maybe worn out.

Perhaps apply some Stabilant 22 to the PCM/ECU connectors....
http://www.stabilant.com/
https://www.amazon.com/Stabilant-5ml.../dp/B001E50GQS

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Old 10-19-2019, 09:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

YAY!! :Happy: After almost a year of sitting in the yard, I got my Saturn going. I totaled my new vehicle, (or so the insurance said) So i needed a replacement car. I decided, why not, try getting the Saturn going again.

I charged the battery for a while with the cables attached, and tried cranking when it had enough juice, of course, crank no start. So i decided take off the negative battery cable. charge for a bit, then replace when the battery had charged a bit more then i began running diagnostics again. Checked to see if i had power to the ignition control module, Yep, 12,12 6. Check to see if i was getting fuel by removing a spark plug and igniting the fuel vapors in the cylinder with a blowtorch. I did get flames to wisp out of the cylinder so i was getting fuel. Since the car was cranking faster than i remembered i checked to see if the cylinders were moving by placing a piece of bambo in the cyclinder while cranking and i would be able to see it move. Yes, it was kicked out. In the process of checking the fuel, and checking for movement, i heard the engine fire randomly a few times. I turned it over a bit more and it fired a bit more. I replaced the spark plug and cranked it over, stepped on the gas and it started.

All this after i bought a brand new ignition control module OEM off amazon, I never even opened the packaging.

There are only two things I could suspect was wrong. 1) One of the negative leads to the battery must have been loose some how and established a better connection when i re-tightened things down. 2) There is a gasket leak in the engine right in the farthest hole for the spark plug resulting in a very oily spark plug and spark plug threads, and i know oil can be an insulator. Thus it is possible for that cylinder to have not have full connection and this could somehow mess with the spark and also the camshaft positioning sensor, and me using a blowtorch in the hole thinned the oil enough to allow electrical connection to occur. 3) The CPM in the car is faulty and it's choosing to work when it wants to work

Otherwise I am at a loss for how I got it started.

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Old 10-20-2019, 01:03 PM   #10
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

Even if one cylinder fails to run, the other three cylinders will run. A lumpy idle and very rough engine will still run with one cylinder down.

This intermittent problem seems to be related to the ignition system. This starts at the pcm, sending signals to the ignition control module to switch power in the ignition coils to create spark.

All you can do for now is startup and drive, hoping for reliability to return without any more issues.

There's always a possibility of a worn out pcm. Used ones are out there if you decide to get one for backup.

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Old 10-22-2019, 04:41 AM   #11
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

Well on the way home from work it just died on me. was running fine then just quit.

It threw out a battery warning light when the battery is fine and an oil light when the oil level is also fine. While trying to start it i smelled fuel coming out of the exhaust system.

I am now thinking that my suspicions of a failing PCM are correct and it will never run again without spending 1600$ on a new one.

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Old 10-22-2019, 05:54 AM   #12
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

Actually I'm finding out I only need to find a used pcm someplace. It would be great if i could find one online somewhere. Is eBay a good place to do so? Or should I try to go to the fort worth pickNpull and pick one up locally?

I'm very tempted by the ones I am seeing on Ebay since some are only 10$ plus shipping, but at that low of a price I'm rather leery of them actually working, must be something not right about them.

Last edited by Attloyden; 10-22-2019 at 06:00 AM..

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Old 10-22-2019, 06:28 AM   #13
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attloyden View Post
I am now thinking that my suspicions of a failing PCM are correct and it will never run again without spending 1600$ on a new one.
$1600.00? Really.
Five or six years ago I paid about $400.00 for my mechanic to install a remanufactured computer in my SL2 with a lifetime warranty because new ones were unavailable.

...
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Old 10-22-2019, 11:43 AM   #14
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

Is that 400$ plus the costs of the re-manufactured computer, or 400$ tottal?

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Old 10-22-2019, 12:04 PM   #15
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attloyden View Post
It threw out a battery warning light when the battery is fine and an oil light when the oil level is also fine.
That's normal, once an engine stalls. Battery light comes on because alternator is no longer charging the system, oil pressure light comes on because engine is not running and pumping oil through, so low oil pressure (btw, you can have low oil and good pressure, or low pressure and filled with oil - it is not a "low oil level" light)

Quote:
I have an exhaust leak near the transmission, the braided part of the exhaust is torn at the top so anchor for the ignition module gets hot to the touch pretty quickly, however nothing is melted or anything and they still look new, something somewhere just suddenly failed.
Did you ever replace the module? Might be failing when over a certain temperature.

PCM failures are extremely rare - but if replacing, I would pull from JY so you can match the programmed options - year, AC, cruise, transmission, etc

$32 + $4 core at my u pull it; but don't give yours up until you know new one works

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Old 10-22-2019, 12:35 PM   #16
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

No I did not replace it, since it started up without it. I do have a new one from Amazon that had good reviews.

Is it normal during start up for the oil and battery light to be illuminated when you have the car in run, but not cranking it? When I try to start it first the oil light turns off then a few seconds later the battery light goes off. This does not seem normal.

Could a PCM still inject fuel but also be bad?

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Old 10-22-2019, 12:46 PM   #17
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

What about these dash light indicators is abnormal ?
They should all be on when ignition it in run position (all OFF if in engine is running!).
Engine starts, oil should go out showing oil pressure is up to normal.
Battery, should go out right away unless the alternator is not putting out for the normal load. Battery starts the car, then after ignition takes over, alternator should then charge battery.

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Old 10-22-2019, 01:30 PM   #18
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

Then I guess the next step is trying the new ICM. Don't know if amazon will accept the return if it does not work, would be 106$ gone at that point.

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Old 10-22-2019, 02:19 PM   #19
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

Quote:
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Then I guess the next step is trying the new ICM. Don't know if amazon will accept the return if it does not work, would be 106$ gone at that point.
I thought you already had the ICM for a year and it was too late to return it?

You could always try a new PCM first - you would be out less money if it does turn out to be the PCM, but if it is not the PCM, you are out the additional cost of the PCM (very much doubt a JY would allow you to return it)

Quote:
Is it normal during start up for the oil and battery light to be illuminated when you have the car in run, but not cranking it?
Yes - battery light is triggered if the alternator is putting out below a certain amount of current. When the engine is not running, it is putting out 0 volts.

Similar for the oil pressure light. The oil pump in this car is connected to the crankshaft - when engine is not running, the oil pump is not pumping and you have 0 psi oil pressure.

Quote:
When I try to start it first the oil light turns off then a few seconds later the battery light goes off. This does not seem normal.
When you first turn the key to the run position, all your warning lights should be on for a second or two, as part of the bulb check process. When you turn the key further to the Start position, your starter is cranking the engine - since the engine is moving, the alternator is generating some current and the oil pump is building up pressure as well.

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Old 10-22-2019, 03:06 PM   #20
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Default Re: 1997 SW2 Crank but no start, stuck on wiring.

So far fort worth picknpull says they don't have any saturns to get parts from. At least online using my zip code.

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