2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Removal out top or lower out bottom

[Fasteddy51]

I have tried to read numberous posts about the 2.2 Ecotec engine woes on the 2002 and 2003 model years and the oiling problem that causes timing chains to break and trash the pistons and valves at highway speeds. My wife recently had this happen. I agitates me to no end that they still make interferance engines! Anyway two things:
1. Has anyone pulled the engine out through the engine bay from above, or do most drop it with the tranny out from the bottom? I have an engine hoist and a load leveler, and have experience messing with engine take out and removal, but haven't done a Saturn Vue before. It has the 5 speed manual transmission.

2. On the replacement engine, I am considering purchasing a 2.2 from a 2004 Malibu, with 108,000 miles with a 6 month warranty for around $700. Do I , replace the timing chain and nozzle for insurance while the engine is out before I put it in? I think I read that the 2004's have the updated oiler, but am leary about the longevity of the chains. I have a chance to get a lower mileage 2002 or 2003 engine still running for $450. Do I get one of those motors and update the timing chain and oiler?

Any advice would be appreciated. I don't know if updating a 2002 or 2003 with the new oiler nozzle and chain would be as reliable as a 2004 engine with the newer update already installed.

[OhioVueBoy]

The VUE 2.2 is not the same as the other 2.2s out there of the same years.

It was the first one with drive-by-wire, and IIRC the cam is different in it.

[col_dude190]

Originally Posted by Fasteddy51

I have tried to read numberous posts about the 2.2 Ecotec engine woes on the 2002 and 2003 model years and the oiling problem that causes timing chains to break and trash the pistons and valves at highway speeds. My wife recently had this happen. I agitates me to no end that they still make interferance engines! Anyway two things:
1. Has anyone pulled the engine out through the engine bay from above, or do most drop it with the tranny out from the bottom? I have an engine hoist and a load leveler, and have experience messing with engine take out and removal, but haven't done a Saturn Vue before. It has the 5 speed manual transmission.

2. On the replacement engine, I am considering purchasing a 2.2 from a 2004 Malibu, with 108,000 miles with a 6 month warranty for around $700. Do I , replace the timing chain and nozzle for insurance while the engine is out before I put it in? I think I read that the 2004's have the updated oiler, but am leary about the longevity of the chains. I have a chance to get a lower mileage 2002 or 2003 engine still running for $450. Do I get one of those motors and update the timing chain and oiler?

Any advice would be appreciated. I don't know if updating a 2002 or 2003 with the new oiler nozzle and chain would be as reliable as a 2004 engine with the newer update already installed.

As far as removing an Ecotec, there is a member on here who replaced his engine, but he lowered the sub frame as is recommended in the service manual. Beyond that I am not sure of the specifics of what he did. You can find the details of his project here:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=163871

If I were in your position, I would be looking for an Ecotec with fairly low miles from an '04 or '05. An '02 or '03 with the updated oiler would be just as reliable as a later model engine, however you are creating A LOT more work for yourself by changing the timing chain, which as I understand it is a pretty labor intensive job on the Ecotecs. As far as the chain on an '04 or '05, if its got low miles it should be good to go. Many of these engines have gone 200K+ miles without a timing chain change, but others have had issues closer to 150K miles, so it seems to be a luck of the draw. But again, if you get one with low miles, you shouldn't have any issues with the chain for the rest of the useful life of your Vue.

I would also take the time to look for a cheaper price on an engine. These engines were in pretty much EVERYTHING that GM had made in the past 15 years. Any 2.2 Ecotec from 02-06 should work just fine in your Vue. I found this one in your neck of the woods on eBay from an '05 Malibu with 67K miles for $450. Just something to think about...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/04-05...item3f0d2bf0ac

[OhioVueBoy]

Originally Posted by col_dude190

These engines were in pretty much EVERYTHING that GM had made in the past 15 years. Any 2.2 Ecotec from 02-06 should work just fine in your Vue.

They are not all the same, however. There are cable throttle versions, DBW versions, and several other configurations. Granted, those are just the intake manifolds but who knows what else is changed.

The VUE is the highest output of any of the 2.2s - both in torque and HP.

[col_dude190]

Originally Posted by OhioVueBoy

They are not all the same, however. There are cable throttle versions, DBW versions, and several other configurations. Granted, those are just the intake manifolds but who knows what else is changed.

The VUE is the highest output of any of the 2.2s - both in torque and HP.

Yes there were changes to the manifolds, but the blocks are all the same. Hollander lists the Vue, ION, Cobalt, HHR, and various other GM models as all using the exact same engines. While there are differences between there implementation, namely the drive by wire vs throttle cable setup, the engine itself stayed the same. I would assume that if the original poster is willing to buy an older Ecotec and swap in a new timing chain, that he could more than likely handle switching the intake manifold from his Vue to his new engine.

And as far as the highest torque and HP, the VUE is the second highest rated on the original L61. The highest HP award goes to the '05 and '06 Cobalts which were rated at 145 HP and 155lb ft of torque (same torque as the VUE). Just an FYI...

[OhioVueBoy]

Originally Posted by col_dude190

And as far as the highest torque and HP, the VUE is the second highest rated on the original L61. The highest HP award goes to the '05 and '06 Cobalts which were rated at 145 HP and 155lb ft of torque (same torque as the VUE). Just an FYI...

Touche... I forgot about those.

[Fasteddy51]

Thanks guys for the responses. If I have this correctly, I could install a new improved oil nozzle and timing chain setup in any 2002 or 2003 engine that is still running, and be OK, and that would essentially make the long block as reliable as the 2004's and newer 2.2's? I am planning on swapping the long block is all, and keeping my intake and exhaust manifold setup from the Vue. Where is the best place to purchase the new updated oiler for the timing chain setup? Is it a GM only part, or do the aftermarket timing chain manufacturers offer the improved oiling nozzle? It sounds like the 2.2 long block is exactly the same, except for maybe a slight cam difference to vary the horsepower?
I still wonder about pulling the engine out the top. It has the 5 speed, and I might as well change the clutch when it is accessable. Is this for sure an out the bottom job? I did see the post that had pics that someone took out the bottom. Just wondering the difference between the two options, or is it a toss up? Thanks again for any and all advice!

[emsvitil]

There's not enough room between the frame to split the engine from the manual tranny by going out the top.


BTW, I'm the OP of the link above about going out the bottom...

[Fasteddy51]

Ed,

Thanks for the reply and also the documentation of the removal of the front cradle assembly. It verifies that I do have to drop everything down below. Did you replace the clutch setup while you had it apart, and did you do anything to the replacement engine other than bolt it in and go? How long did it take you to drop the assembly out? Sorry for all the questions, but I am exactly in the same predicament as you were, and will be replacing the engine with a used one. You advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Ed

[emsvitil]

Yep, replaced the clutch and clutch slave. Figured it would be a good idea while it was apart.

I put in about an ounce of ATF into each cylinder of the replacement engine and rotated it 1/2 turn every 1/2 hour for a couple of hours to make sure the rings weren't sticky (start at TDC). Then rotated it 1/4 turn and left it sit overnight (ATF drained past rings by the next day)


Take the intake manifold off before dropping for more clearance ( reinstall when engine is back in car). Remove the stud closest to starter along with all the bolts to be able to easily manipulate the manifold (other stud can stay in)

I was really taking my time (have other cars to drive), but one afternoon should do it.


And, take out the bottom 2 engine/tranny bolts before you drop everything.....(hard to get to when it's sitting on wooden platform)

[far2grumpy]

Ed ... do you recall anything unusual about the two front cradle bolts when you swapped engines?

I removed one bolt on my 2005 and noted lots of rusty-powder falling out of the hole. After careful checking I noted the bolt was eroding badly in the area between threads and head.

I also noted service manual says not to reuse those bolts. I checked with local GMC dealer and they had in stock. I'm always suspicious when any item is used enough for dealer to maintain stock and am curious if your bolts were eroding?

At any rate, I changed the bolts on my 2005 and 2007 Vue - all were showing signs of erosion (might be a rust-belt thing).

GM part number is 11588565 and they were $3.18 each at local dealer.

I realize this is a little off-topic but perhaps OP can use the bolt part number.

[emsvitil]

I reused the cradle bolts, they looked fine to me with no signs of corrosion.

But I don't have to worry salted roads either...........


It's probably easier to say to replace them if in certain areas of the country they corrode (and less liability too)

[Fasteddy51]

Ed,

When I am looking for a replacement motor, the salvage yards always ask if the exhaust manifold is drilled and tapped for an air check valve. Mine has an O2 sensor horizontal to the ground, facing the drivers side, but where would it be drilled and tapped for an air check valve? The other question they ask is if the head has an EGR valve or not. Mine has what I think is an EGR valve located at the back(drivers) side of the engine, towards the front corner. Is there any pictures of either of these two features that would give me a better understanding on what to look for? I understand about the EGR valve for interchangeability, but if I am using my existing exhaust manifold, does that even matter? I am looking at a 2005 Saturn ION engine. I am going to look at it in person tomorrow. Thanks, Ed

[emsvitil]

EGR doesn't matter.

My original engine didn't have it, replacement did (but it wasn't used)

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=163871

Top picture in post 7 shows original engine without EGR. EGR would be above the coolant pipe where those 3 bolt heads are on the end of the head. The 2 bolt cover plate is over something on the intake camshaft.

Picture in post 15 shows EGR above oil fill cap on tranny, black block off plate; just below red headrest of creeper.



Top picture in post 10 is replacement engine without AIR (nothing on top of exhaust manifold). I think all the AIR stuff is in the exhaust manifold, so using the original exhaust manifold should be fine.

Don't think you have AIR, and without AIR is probably cheaper too.

[Fasteddy51]

In the process of getting the engine disconnected to remove with the tranny. How do you disconnect the shifter cables (5 speed manual) from the transmission. I didn't want to break anything, but the only thing I found on the forum was someone saying that you pry them off the ball connection? Is this correct? If someone has a solution, I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks, Ed

[emsvitil]

They pry off the balls. I used 2 large screwdrivers, one as pivot on one side, other screwdriver to pry on other side.

After you pop them off the balls, you can pry them loose from the cable attachment point on the tranny like I did, or pull the round plastic cover back and slide them off the tranny (which I discovered later)

[Fasteddy51]

Just an update on my progress, with a few more questions if anyone has some advice. My life has been crazy busy, so available time is hard to come by! Several things on taking the assembly out. It went fairly well, but could not get the cables off the transmission without them ultimately breaking at the ends! I used a pry tool for interior door panels, a fork tool for suspension parts, multiple screwdrivers, and still managed to break them. I swear I spent a ton of time trying to salvage those, but couldn't get them removed properly. I ended up ordering new cables from GMpartsdirect, have yet to get them, but hopefully they will work out ok. There had been some difficulty shifting before all of this happened, so they were probably on their way out anyway. I ended up getting a 2004 Saturn Ion engine with 67,300 miles on it. Like anything, what parts do you replace while you have it at this stage? Water pump, new timing chain now, new hoses, or just run with it? I swear you could go on and on!

I ordered a new clutch kit off of amazon.com, and it seems to be a nice kit with clutch, pressure plate and hydraulic throwout. I was swapping my flywheel out between the two engines after I had it resurfaced, and just found out that I need to replace the flywheel bolts and maybe the pressure plate bolts. Doing some research, I found the GM part number for the flywheel bolts is # 11570626. I also found that alot of guys are using the ARP # 254-2801 flywheel bolt set (8ea) that is also used for the Ford 4.6 and 5.4 engines. This set is about $40, the GM bolt is $7-$8 each. I think I am going with the ARP set. Initially I debated on reusing the flywheel bolts, but think I will get a new set. I still don't know about the pressure plate bolts, do you reuse these or get new? I can't find numbers for these readily available, so it makes me wonder. A few other questions, do you guys reuse the exhaust manifold gasket and the intake manifold gaskets? Any advice would help out greatly. Thanks, Ed

[emsvitil]

I go new top and bottom radiator hoses, left the other coolant hoses in.

I reused the flywheel bolts and clutch bolts.

The original engine's water pump and thermostat were still good at 134k, so I left those alone on the replacment engine (41k). I figured I'd change the timing chain, water pump and thermostat when the car hit 200k.


Didn't take the exhaust manifold off the replacement, but looking at the old engine, I don't think it's reusable.

I did reuse the intake manifold seals, figuring if they leaked; it was easy enough to do later. (still not leaking). I did however soak them in paint thinner to clean them. I had to wait several hours for them to shrink back down to the correct size. Maybe the swelling reset them to a like new condition ?????

[Fasteddy51]

I have the engine swapped, and everything bolted back up, but now I don't have any power inside of the vehicle! The fuel pump does not run. The engine turns over, but I don't have any fuel at the fuel rail. I shoot some gas into the intake throttle, and it fires right up, so I have spark and ignition.

I have taken the fuse block completely back out of the vehicle, and reinstalled it, hooked up the battery, and have the same results. No lights in the dash, or power anything inside the Vue.

I checked for 12 volts at the junction block outside of the fuse block, at the fuseable link by the drivers hood hinge, and I do have 12 volts. I do not have 12 volts to anything inside at the passenger console fuse block. Am I missing something?

Is there a possibility that the anti theft function is engaged? I don't know what to do, but this project has me a bit frazzled at the moment! Please if anyone has any ideas, I am all ears.

[Fasteddy51]

Secured a loose ground wire hidden under the battery compartment, and all is well!