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Old 06-22-2007, 08:12 PM   #81
davidsky
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

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Its ashamed when a compact car has more to offer than the Bu'ra The new Civic look sweet but they are a little to small for me. When will GM start doing something to keep people from wanting to drive the Camry?
OnStar uses Verizons network for phone calls
The Civic is noisy when you drive it.
Nobody drives the Camry, they just buy and use it. There's no "driving" involved.

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Old 06-22-2007, 08:15 PM   #82
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

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I also didn't know that the Bu'ra would hold its value having all those nice little options.
If you get rid of a car before it's 10 years old you're an idiot and deserve to lose money.

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Old 06-22-2007, 08:29 PM   #83
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

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If you get rid of a car before it's 10 years old you're an idiot and deserve to lose money.
I'd counter with: If you keep a car more than 4 years you are cheap and should make better money so as to afford to swap out of cars.
Or, how about: If you bought a car with a good resale you could swap out of it at the 3 year mark and not get reamed.

Who wants to keep a car long enough to have to replace everything? Might as well get something new with a warranty and spend your spare time doing something productive like posting on Saturnfans rather than changing your struts.

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Old 06-22-2007, 08:45 PM   #84
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

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I'd counter with: If you keep a car more than 4 years you are cheap and should make better money so as to afford to swap out of cars.
Or, how about: If you bought a car with a good resale you could swap out of it at the 3 year mark and not get reamed.

Who wants to keep a car long enough to have to replace everything? Might as well get something new with a warranty and spend your spare time doing something productive like posting on Saturnfans rather than changing your struts.
One thing is for sure...if you DO change cars every few years, the steep depreciation of your Saturn is a very large hidden cost compared to something from Toyota/Honda/etc. All cars depreciate, but Saturns depreciate like a rock.

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Old 06-22-2007, 09:11 PM   #85
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

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One thing is for sure...if you DO change cars every few years, the steep depreciation of your Saturn is a very large hidden cost compared to something from Toyota/Honda/etc. All cars depreciate, but Saturns depreciate like a rock.

Best,
Yes, I'm prone to newcaritis - will probably have it forever but I love cars. The Civic we just got is what I wanted when we got the CRV-SE so I'm pleased - it drives great. I've done pretty good over the years with not getting hurt too badly on them. The key has either been a good lease deal with little out of pocket or getting a good deal on a desirable model from a manufacturer who does not play the incentive game. Haven't had a Saturn in a few years now but loved the ones I had. I've probably spent well over a grand on window tint in the past 5 years though...

The Aura is a nice ride. I just find it odd that GM would fail to offer Nav when it seems to be the cost of entry into that near 30k crowd.

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Old 06-22-2007, 10:05 PM   #86
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

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And stop saying Bu'ra...say Aurabu Salesman at my Saturn dealer used that to describe the new Malibu and I like it, ha ha.
I call it the Bu'ra because the Malibu will outsell the Aura by at least 3:1 and that should be a slow month

Quote:
piney: One thing is for sure...if you DO change cars every few years, the steep depreciation of your Saturn is a very large hidden cost compared to something from Toyota/Honda/etc. All cars depreciate, but Saturns depreciate like a rock.
Finally someone who sees the light.
Hyundai, makes good cars but there values fall too. At least they offer haggle room on their valued priced cars. Hyundai uses vaseline instead of Saturn's using the wire brush.

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For a tad north of a thousand bucks, you can get a Pioneer AVIC-D3 with bluetooth, Ipod integration, and XM (or maybe Sirius...I forget).
My daughter has this setup in her 98 Malibu

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Old 06-22-2007, 10:10 PM   #87
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

Not everyone needs or wants navi though. I have absolutely no use for it and do not need to "keep up" with the latest technology. I live in a small town of 6000 people and the only time I would use it if I went to a bigger city I'm not familiar with, which maybe happens once every 2 years. So why would I or anyone like me want to pay $1500 or more for this??? And I would bet 90% of people don't really need it either, just another fancy toy, like text messaging on cell phones, who really needs that? Try phoning the person, duh!! After all who needs a machine to tell us where the nearest Chineese resteraunt is, we've survived 100 years without it. Too many people trying to keep up with the " Jones's". We will all manage to find out way without navi, if some higher end carss have it, fine, but not every car needs it, even as an option. Buy a compass and a map, its cheaper.

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Old 06-22-2007, 10:35 PM   #88
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

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Feature wise Bu'ra offers alot, but not what the cars in there class offers.
Similarly, you won't find rear seat audio controls or power adjustable pedals (the latter of which would probably be of more significance to many people, for driver comfort) on most of its competition. Heated cloth seats aren't a common find either.

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While the Civic doesnt offer "leather upholstery, heated front seats, power adjustable pedals, power seats", is does offer one piece of equipment that should be offered in every New designed midsize car. NAV
Yes my wife car does have heated leather seats, but my 97 >205K miles Grand prix GTP doesnt. (Its my daily driver) It has cloth seats because thats the way I ordered. It came with a tire monitoring system, and headsup deplay 10+ years ago. Its has had an (aftermarket) remote start for almost 5 years
That's funny, because you could go out and buy an aftermarket nav system as well (as some are saying in this thread). It would serve the same purpose.

However, factory remote start is like a factory nav: it's sometimes tricky to mess with a car's electronics aftermarket. Plus, the integrated theme is often preferred.

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There are other nameplates with longer histories in the GM family that doesn't sale like the Civic, yet the Honda name has it up in the top three in sales
And that's where it traces back to brand perception.

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I was wondering how the Civic came into this thread. That's right; A midsize option in a compact
Saturn has offered leather upholstery in their compact cars (both S-Series and ION) for almost as long as they've been making cars...before Honda even offered leather in the Accord, in fact. They still don't in the Civic. "Midsize options" won't necessarily make or break sales.

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Well, 44,513 people liked them last month with 4520 of those being hybrids
Just missed being #2 in sales by 725 cars. Thats competition
Competition for what?
The Aura will never be a top 10 selling car. It's just not what it's planned for.

Quote:
You're right, the Bu'ra compares more to the Lexus ES actually in size, however the Lexus IS350 has managed to passed the Aura in sales even though it cost more.
Lexus also has a much better brand perception and people know of their models better. Either way, the cost doesn't have to do with the sales.

Quote:
It also has those little extra you are so fund of on the Aura.
Trying to poke at somebody like that doesn't work. I could equally say that a navigation system is a little extra that you are so fond of too, but I don't think you'd like that.

Quote:
BTW. The whole idea about my comments on the Bu'ra is that GM as a car company is to make sure that they car attract Camry owners. Boring or not it sells and it only gets greater. I just hope that GM doesn't drop the ball with the G8. Hopefully it will (offer) have the NAV and other features that a midize car should have. Hopefully the V6 3.6 version will get better mileage than Aura which I doubt because its actually heavier.
The G8 is a full-size car.
The G8 is a very different car than the Aura. FWD vs. RWD, the G8 is larger, different aerodynamics, different engine/transmission tunings, etc. There's mroe to it than just weight.

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Old 06-22-2007, 11:13 PM   #89
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

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Competition for what?
The Aura will never be a top 10 selling car. It's just not what it's planned for.
Agreed it wasn't meant to be a top 5 or even top 10 seller. It is meant though to carry its weight under the GM umbrella.

Quote:
Lexus also has a much better brand perception and people know of their models better. Either way, the cost doesn't have to do with the sales.
Cost does have to do with spending a little more to make more. Toyota spent a little more to create the ES350.

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Trying to poke at somebody like that doesn't work. I could equally say that a navigation system is a little extra that you are so fond of too, but I don't think you'd like that.
A NAV isn't for everyone and should only be an option.
Offering something goes a long way. Its a lot different from it being standard where its forced on you like OnStar.

Quote:
The G8 is a full-size car.
The G8 is a very different car than the Aura. FWD vs. RWD, the G8 is larger, different aerodynamics, different engine/transmission tunings, etc. There's mroe to it than just weight.
I know all of this. The G8 just may have the problem of being a Pontiac. People are not going to go running to a $30k Pontiac. You would have thought GM learned from thr GTO. I Will blame the Dealers on the GTO instead of GM. They were greedy asking people for well over sticker. Results, GM had trouble moving 25k GTO's over a two year period

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Old 06-22-2007, 11:35 PM   #90
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

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Agreed it wasn't meant to be a top 5 or even top 10 seller. It is meant though to carry its weight under the GM umbrella.
IMO, Saturn will be like GM's Mazda. The next Aura will move more away from the Malibu (which will be geared towards bigger sales), so overlap won't be a big problem.

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Cost does have to do with spending a little more to make more. Toyota spent a little more to create the ES350.
Be it an IS or ES, the Lexus brand in general has a better perception.

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A NAV isn't for everyone and should only be an option.
Offering something goes a long way. Its a lot different from it being standard where its forced on you like OnStar.
I have a feeling that a lot of buyers don't care either way. Which is both good and bad for GM.

Quote:
I know all of this. The G8 just may have the problem of being a Pontiac. People are not going to go running to a $30k Pontiac. You would have thought GM learned from thr GTO. I Will blame the Dealers on the GTO instead of GM. They were greedy asking people for well over sticker. Results, GM had trouble moving 25k GTO's over a two year period
I don't know about the markups since there are a lot of dealers and they're all different, but a big part of the GTO's problem was more that it "didn't look special enough." Plus, being a coupe limited its appeal some.
Some of Pontiac's recent $30k cars weren't usually good enough at that price point. If the product is good enough that may not be its problem. Look at the Outlook, for an example.

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Old 06-23-2007, 08:13 AM   #91
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

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Saturn has offered leather upholstery in their compact cars (both S-Series and ION) for almost as long as they've been making cars...before Honda even offered leather in the Accord, in fact. They still don't in the Civic. "Midsize options" won't necessarily make or break sales.
Honda offered leather in the SE-i models of the 1985 Accords. Saturn wasn't a product then . If they offered leather in the Civic, I'd have it but they don't for reasons only known by their product planners. Those planners must be kin to the Aura planners or at least have ridden the same tiny bus to school. Dealers do put in the CustomSoftTrim leather but I didn't want to mess with that.

Last edited by piney; 06-23-2007 at 08:21 AM..

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Old 06-23-2007, 12:03 PM   #92
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

Civic is very appealing in an age of $3/gal+ gasoline, but am looking at the '08 Accord.

I did the side by side by side thing, and the Camry is numbness on wheels in anything but SE V6 trim. Maybe accessories from TRD could help. All of the cars in the comparison were well equipped and stickered in the lower twenties (Aura XE, Accord LX I4, Camry LE I-4)

Accord is closer to Aura in driving dynamics, though I give Honda's interior the advantage, particularly in ergonomics. I don't change cars like seasons, so whatever I get has to last me at least eight years.

By this time next year, I should definitely have a new (or newer) car for real.


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Old 06-23-2007, 06:23 PM   #93
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

I made a Slide show of the Aura VS Camry

enjoy
the first one is the Aura 2nd one is the Camry.





I added the Getto Saturn in just for fun

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Old 06-23-2007, 06:49 PM   #94
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

Nice wing on that SLx...

My local Saturn dealer has a BASE Accord out front - hub caps and all. They are part of a megadealer chain so I've never expected much from them in the way of good business practices. If they are going to compare cars, compare ones that sell for the same amount. Don't compare Saturn MSRP to the MSRP of a different model that typically sells for 10-13% less than sticker as that last couple-few grand makes an OK car nice (e.g.: rims, moonroof, nav and such).

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Old 06-23-2007, 09:12 PM   #95
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

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Not everyone needs or wants navi though. I have absolutely no use for it and do not need to "keep up" with the latest technology. I live in a small town of 6000 people and the only time I would use it if I went to a bigger city I'm not familiar with, which maybe happens once every 2 years. So why would I or anyone like me want to pay $1500 or more for this??? And I would bet 90% of people don't really need it either, just another fancy toy, like text messaging on cell phones, who really needs that? Try phoning the person, duh!! After all who needs a machine to tell us where the nearest Chineese resteraunt is, we've survived 100 years without it. Too many people trying to keep up with the " Jones's". We will all manage to find out way without navi, if some higher end carss have it, fine, but not every car needs it, even as an option. Buy a compass and a map, its cheaper.
I totally agree Dee.. I don't get "Texting"" Like beating your shirt against the washing machine to get it clean..
I'm a techno idiot though..I just mapquest before I go.
I don't think we as a society focus on "need" however..We don't "need" power windows,ABS,CD players..but if Nav is where the bar is I guess Saturn needs to be there to remain competative..

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Old 06-23-2007, 09:13 PM   #96
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

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Nice wing on that SLx...

My local Saturn dealer has a BASE Accord out front - hub caps and all. They are part of a megadealer chain so I've never expected much from them in the way of good business practices. If they are going to compare cars, compare ones that sell for the same amount. Don't compare Saturn MSRP to the MSRP of a different model that typically sells for 10-13% less than sticker as that last couple-few grand makes an OK car nice (e.g.: rims, moonroof, nav and such).
What do you think about the Camry's interior,
I've had more then on person tell me it looks like it was designed by Fisher-Price

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Old 06-23-2007, 09:21 PM   #97
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

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What do you think about the Camry's interior,
I've had more then on person tell me it looks like it was designed by Fisher-Price
I like the metal finish over the faux wood and orange leather but like the Aura's steering wheel much better. Make the trim aluminum looking with charcoal leather and it'd look much nicer imho. I've always preferred the muted approach.

If the Aura's wood was real, I'd say it was cool but it ain't so make it something else like the brushed aluminum. Where the competition afar has always gotten us is in switch gear refinement and materials used. Look at how the coin trays release and such. Last I saw an Aura, the rear cup holder off the center console was not up to par - perhaps they've changed it.

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Old 06-23-2007, 10:34 PM   #98
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Default Re: Drove a Camry today

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I don't know about the markups since there are a lot of dealers and they're all different, but a big part of the GTO's problem was more that it "didn't look special enough." Plus, being a coupe limited its appeal some.
Some of Pontiac's recent $30k cars weren't usually good enough at that price point. If the product is good enough that may not be its problem. Look at the Outlook, for an example.
The Bonneville GXP was a $30k+ nice looking Pontiac= GONE
GTO = GONE

These were both good cars, but the Bonneville was to much interior wise, and the GTO was an old style coupe that was 5 years to late.

The Outlook is a CUV. Outlook would be the same low sales if it were a car over $30k. = GONE

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Old 06-24-2007, 07:48 AM   #99
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Honda offered leather in the SE-i models of the 1985 Accords. Saturn wasn't a product then .
That's true, I forgot about all the SE models. I was only thinking of 1994 Accords that didn't have any SE models and offered it the following year IIRC. I don't know why I didn't stop to think about any of the other models.
Regardless, my point was that the S-Series offered a "midsize option" but wasn't hailed for doing so.

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If they offered leather in the Civic, I'd have it but they don't for reasons only known by their product planners. Those planners must be kin to the Aura planners or at least have ridden the same tiny bus to school.
They put leather in the Civic and sell it as the Acura CSX in Canada (past models were the EL).

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Originally Posted by DeMAN
The Bonneville GXP was a $30k+ nice looking Pontiac= GONE
GTO = GONE
I already explained the GTO. The Bonneville proves my point: it wasn't a good enough product. Subpar interior + FWD V8 + low V8 power output (other makes were almost getting that out of V6s)
Either way, the G8 is the successor to both the Bonneville and the Grand Prix, both of which offer/offered V8s, so it's only the nameplates being discontinued. It's not the price, it's the product.

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Old 06-24-2007, 08:50 AM   #100
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Nice wing on that SLx...

My local Saturn dealer has a BASE Accord out front - hub caps and all. They are part of a megadealer chain so I've never expected much from them in the way of good business practices. If they are going to compare cars, compare ones that sell for the same amount. Don't compare Saturn MSRP to the MSRP of a different model that typically sells for 10-13% less than sticker as that last couple-few grand makes an OK car nice (e.g.: rims, moonroof, nav and such).
The idea is that an Aura's MSRP is a little less but with more equipment, too. An Accord LX will actually sell for less than an Aura but the Aura has more equipment. Accord SE I4, Accord EX models compare a bit more accurately depending on equipment but obviously go for more.
Plus, it's not always easy to get the car under sticker.
Dealers are renting these vehicles, and I doubt that many rental companies are stocked with EX models, let alone EX-L. I don't know about all dealers, but most know that they have to be fair in the comparison.

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