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Old 03-15-2019, 05:24 PM   #1
WorldTour
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Default Help! Timing belt slipped off while rotating assembly during installation!

Ok, really frustrated here.

During my water pump and timing belt change, the belt slipped off the idler pulley. It happened while in the process of rotating the assembly a few times to verify proper alignment of newly installed belt.

The situation became bad because the rear cam rotated quite a bit from the spring like force it has at certain points in its rotation.

For the purpose of getting the crank and cams in proper positioning to reinstall the belt, I could try to eyeball the rear cam to match the front cam, temporarily put on the belt, and rotate the assembly around until the crank is positioned back at the mark. I could then take off the belt, make any small adjustments to the cams in order to align with their marks, and reinstall the belt.

My concern is I have no idea how much tolerance there is in regards to how many teeth the belt could be off before valve and piston contact would occur.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

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Old 03-15-2019, 11:18 PM   #2
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Default Re: Help! Timing belt slipped off while rotating assembly during installation!

See 3.5 (L66) timing index information in post # 4 of this thread:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=180206

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Old 03-16-2019, 02:56 PM   #3
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Default Re: Help! Timing belt slipped off while rotating assembly during installation!

To clarify, my problem is not where the cams and cranks need to go. This was already known and positioned before I removed the old belt and put the new belt on.

My problem is how to get the cams and crank to those marks safely without valve to piston contact now that the belt slipped off.

After installing the new belt, when rotating the assembly to insure the belt was not one tooth off, the belt slipped off the idler pulley in mid rotation. Now the cams and crank are out of position. Further, after the belt came off, the rear cam was under spring tension and rotated itself out of position.

This means I can not just put the belt back on and continue my rotation. At minimum, the rear cam is out of alignment with the front cam and the crank.

Also a possibility is the front cam is off alignment with the crank. Unless the belt slipped off the front cam exactly as I stopped turning the assembly, the front cam is out of synch with the crank, too.

Since this is an interference engine, I can not just rotate the cams and crank randomly back to their marks. This would cause the valve(s) to strike the top of piston(s).


Thanks for the reply so far. My car is stuck in my garage until I can get this handled.

Hopefully someone has knowledge with this situation or knowledge in valve to piston clearance info.

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Old 03-16-2019, 05:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: Help! Timing belt slipped off while rotating assembly during installation!

... I would try to turn the cams by hand with a wrench unless you feel resistance ,to the timing marks, if you do ,try turning the crank separately ,to the timing mark. Doing this by hand won't bend anything , only doing this with force ,you might bend something, once the belt is on correctly ,put a screw driver or something to wedge the tensioner pulley against the belt to rotate the motor a couple of times to make sure they stay lined up. Once sure then pull the pin on the tensioner , then rotate by hand again just for sanity sakes.hope this helps, dc.

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Old 03-16-2019, 10:18 PM   #5
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Default Re: Help! Timing belt slipped off while rotating assembly during installation!

Thanks for your input Vue6.

In order to have better feel for any potential metal to metal contact, I am going to remove the spark plugs. This will allow for the least amount of force necessary to rotate the crank.

I think I am going to first try my original thought of eyeballing the rear cam to match the front cam as best I can and put the timing belt back on. Next, gently rotate the whole assembly until I get the crank back to TDC or until substantial resistance occurs. Hopefully the crank will get to TDC. Then all I will have to do is just remove the timing belt, make a small adjustment to the cams, and reinstall the timing belt.

Swimming in personally uncharted territory now...

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Old 03-16-2019, 10:25 PM   #6
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Default Re: Help! Timing belt slipped off while rotating assembly during installation!

Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldTour View Post
To clarify, my problem is not where the cams and cranks need to go. This was already known and positioned before I removed the old belt and put the new belt on.

My problem is how to get the cams and crank to those marks safely without valve to piston contact now that the belt slipped off.

After installing the new belt, when rotating the assembly to insure the belt was not one tooth off, the belt slipped off the idler pulley in mid rotation. Now the cams and crank are out of position. Further, after the belt came off, the rear cam was under spring tension and rotated itself out of position.

This means I can not just put the belt back on and continue my rotation. At minimum, the rear cam is out of alignment with the front cam and the crank.

Also a possibility is the front cam is off alignment with the crank. Unless the belt slipped off the front cam exactly as I stopped turning the assembly, the front cam is out of synch with the crank, too.

Since this is an interference engine, I can not just rotate the cams and crank randomly back to their marks. This would cause the valve(s) to strike the top of piston(s).


Thanks for the reply so far. My car is stuck in my garage until I can get this handled.

Hopefully someone has knowledge with this situation or knowledge in valve to piston clearance info.
Holy cats ... I see the problem.

Vue6 has good idea but if it were mine I'd I also remove spark plugs to rotate engine with minimum resistance.

In theory this means you could slowly move crank to correct timing mark and would have better chance of knowing when there was any valve / piston conflict.

It might not be true in all cases but generally once crank marks are aligned per service manual none of the pistons will hit any valve regardless of cam rotation.

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Old 03-16-2019, 11:45 PM   #7
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Default Re: Help! Timing belt slipped off while rotating assembly during installation!

Itís very difficult to get that rear cam to stay still when setting timing. The thing is sitting at the spring and a sneeze will cause it to fall off and rotate. Itís pretty typical. Not seen ill effects but I never tried turning the crank until it was back in place.

-Robert

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Old 03-17-2019, 09:50 AM   #8
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Default Re: Help! Timing belt slipped off while rotating assembly during installation!

Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldTour View Post
In order to have better feel for any potential metal to metal contact, I am going to remove the spark plugs. This will allow for the least amount of force necessary to rotate the crank.
I would have done that before even starting. If you're changing the belt it's probably time for plugs too. How far off is the crank from TDC when the belt slipped off? And how did it slip off? There isn't much slack even before you pull the pin on the tensioner.

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Old 03-17-2019, 11:46 AM   #9
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Default Re: Help! Timing belt slipped off while rotating assembly during installation!

In regards to the spark plugs, they were mid life, with no "need" for removal. The timing belt was only replaced because the water pump failed mid interval. The previous owner only changed the plugs and belt at the 100k service, not the water pump.

The crank rotated ok with the plugs in. The belt came off during my first rotation after putting the belt on and testing the alignment of the cams and crank.

I used the crank for most of the rotation. I switched to the front cam for for one pull while looking down at the crank. There apparently was released tension at the idler pulley from turning the front cam. The slack from the left side of the belt shifted to in between the front cam and crank where the idler pulley is. I did not notice this as I was looking at the crank rotate.

Unfortunately, during that one pull, the rear cam moved through it's "spring phase" of its rotation. This caused enough forward force to cause the belt to slip off the idler pulley.

I am not near the crank right now but it is somewhere around 2/3 to 3/4 of full rotation. Clock facing, Crank somewhere between 7:30 and 9. Cams are around 4-5.

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Old 03-17-2019, 12:35 PM   #10
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Default Re: Help! Timing belt slipped off while rotating assembly during installation!

I'd try to carefully walk the crank and cams to their proper TDC positions 1/8 turn at a time on each.

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Old 03-20-2019, 07:24 PM   #11
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Default Re: Help! Timing belt slipped off while rotating assembly during installation!

Quote:
Originally Posted by atikovi View Post
I'd try to carefully walk the crank and cams to their proper TDC positions 1/8 turn at a time on each.
In case anyone else ends up in this situation, I need to make a correction to otherwise good advise. Since the crank and cam rotate at a 2 to 1 ratio, the crank should be rotated in some 2 to 1 ratio to keep things from hitting each other. For example, 1/8 turn of the crank and 1/16 turn of the cams.

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Old 03-20-2019, 07:53 PM   #12
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Default Re: Help! Timing belt slipped off while rotating assembly during installation!

Ok, finally put it back together. It took a while longer due to waiting for some suspension parts.

Good news, I got the assemblies back into proper alignment without damage.

I chose to go with my original idea in lining up the crank and cams by sight, feel, and logic, to as close as I could to where they were when the belt slipped off. Then I attached the belt to complete the rotation of the crank and cam to the alignment marks.

Since I already knew the rear cam sprung forward precisely when the belt slipped off, I just needed to set it back to the very narrow range where it will not spring forward or backwards. Then, I matched the front cam to the rear cam orientation. Next, I used the 2 to 1 ratio and calculated the cams were in approximately the right spot relative to the crank.

I took the plugs out for a softer feel and slowly rotated the crank. Even with the plugs out, there was still compression in the cylinders with closed intake valves. This caused me to initially apply more pressure than I was comfortable doing.

Once the crank was aligned, I was able to determine that my cam adjustments were close, the teeth were only 2 off. After taking off the belt and making the minor cam adjustments, everything went back together fine. The engine fired up no problems.

Ironically, the springing of the rear cam which caused the problem in the first place (along with me turning the front cam once instead of the crank), was what also made me comfortable in my guestimate alignment.

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Old 03-23-2019, 05:48 PM   #13
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Default Re: Help! Timing belt slipped off while rotating assembly during installation!

...Good for you , glad it turned out ok for you. DC

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Old 03-30-2019, 11:34 AM   #14
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Default Re: Help! Timing belt slipped off while rotating assembly during installation!

cyls cant have compression with plugs out. i have done a few 3.0 timing belts and i pulled the heads due to a failed timing belt job. if the timing belt is removed than all cams will go to a relaxed rotation. where the valves are closed. than its the usual procedure for timing a motor after a head job. which most manuals walk you thru. on a 3.0 its at 60 atdc. all pistons are now down in bores so cams can be set to proper rotation. than you use a cam lock tool to hold them. honda must be similar in detail

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