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Old 01-08-2010, 07:48 PM   #21
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Well, it is one of several ways to check for a flooded engine and its the best when removing the plugs as you'll either see/smell nothing unusual or find wet plugs. In case of flooding, leave the plugs out to dry off and blip the starter to blow out any raw fuel still residing in each cylinder.

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Old 01-08-2010, 07:56 PM   #22
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

fdryer, let me make sure I understand you.

Remove all four spark plugs, check if they are wet, with what? Fuel? Let them Dry, and then blip??? the start, do you mean try to start the car normally? Or with the accelerator all the way down?

Also, any suggestions regarding the fuel pump info I provided?

Thank you for all your help thus far.

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Old 01-08-2010, 09:04 PM   #23
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

When the spark plugs are removed you'll see and be able to smell the presence of raw wet gasoline from a flooded engine that normally exhibits dry plugs. Fuel is injected, sprayed in a very fine mist without wetting anything in the combustion chambers in normal situations. A flooded engine will be wet from raw gasoline; take a wet (from fuel) plug outside and it should light up with a match. This is not supposed to happen at any time unless something occurred to allow the injectors to spray more fuel than required; the infamous (failed) coolant sensor that tells the pcm the engine is "freezing" so the pcm responds with supplying more fuel than required to start, resulting in too much fuel in some cases and flooding on others.

This distraction will divert you from the big picture; if flooding is evident then its possible the coolant sensor wasn't replaced. Wet fuel on plugs imply a fuel pump that's working. The opposite would be no wet plugs found and return to possible fuel system problems.

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Old 01-08-2010, 11:46 PM   #24
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

A common way to tell if you have the improved (brass tipped) ECTS is to pull the connector off and look at the exposed "shoulder" area. Click on my pictures; there's one of the old and new style ECTSs, and a red rectangle that shows the area to inspect.

Since you tried starting it with the gas pedal floored, I don't think you are flooding. Gas pedal floored is the "flood clearing" position - it shuts off the fuel flow while the gas pedal is floored and you are starting. The engine should have caught at least briefly while trying to start.

Have you tried checking for fuel at the valve near the injector rail, like madpogue suggested earlier? That's after the fuel filter (I think) and if you don't get a healthy spray of fuel there (cover the area with a rag to catch it) may point to a really badly clogged filter.

I haven't looked at the fuel pump diagnosis stuff, but if you get spark, it sounds like a fuel problem (rarely do you get air problems so bad that the engine completely starves, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to check for obstructions). If your fuel pump is working, then it's either getting too much or too little fuel.
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:00 AM   #25
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

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So, I'm a n00b and a post-whore
Honestly, with you and many others here, I wouldn't go THAT far with calling you all n00bs.

n00b is actually meant to be disrespectful/degrading/insulting/ect. saying newb on the other hand, is respectful.

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Old 01-09-2010, 12:26 PM   #26
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

I will attempt to take the connector off and see if it is the new kind versus the old kind. If it is the new kind can I just assume this is not the issue, or could it still have gone bad on me, and if so, what would cause this.

I have not tried checking the fuel valve at the injector rail because frankly I have no idea where it is. I figured I would try the electrical stuff first. I will look for a video describing the location of this and give it a shot.

I know I keep saying this, but thanks to everyone for you help and suggestions. It is just getting more and more discouraging.

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Old 01-09-2010, 03:37 PM   #27
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

It's very rare that a brass ECTS goes bad but it can happen. It's a simple... dangit, can't remember what it's called, thermistor? thermal resistor? Heat changes the resistance or something like that.

Anyway, unless I'm mistaken, not being familiar with differences in the earlier engines, this is the area you want to check (red arrow) in front of the throttle body and a little below. There's a silver "bar" (roughly where the blue lines are) behind the cam cover, the fuel rail - or maybe just the cover, haven't looked at it closely myself.

You'll see a fuel hose leading off to the right as you face the engine and a little black cap over the valve. The cap will likely have a plastic retainer so it doesn't get lost and underneath it will look just like a bike tire air valve.

Couldn't find a picture of it and I'm at the library without my camera

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Old 01-09-2010, 08:56 PM   #28
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

All,

Here is the update. I removed the Air Intake Plastic Connector Thing, so I could get a good look at the ECTS and try to find this fuel valve.

The ECTS has a "rounded" shoulder, and the connector has been replaced (wasn't able to get the connector off, but I can see the shoulder without removing it).

Next, after some searching, I found a bicycle tire nozzle deal on one of the fuel lines, so I put the battery back into the car, put the key to "Run" and pushed the valve in with a screwdriver. Nothing, Nadda, Zip, Zero fuel came out. Does this mean that it is the fuel pump, or possibly the filter? Or could the fuel lines be frozen (7 degrees out)? If so, how would I check/fix these issues?

Question? I bought some of this Starting Fluid at a Hardware store nearby, and it says to spray into the carburetor or the air intake, but I have never used anything like this before and frankly, I don't want to start spraying things into the wrong areas. Anyone ever use the stuff before? and if so, where should I spray it?

Thanks.

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Old 01-10-2010, 01:44 AM   #29
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Dang, forget to attach the drawing - glad you found it anyway.

Between not hearing the fuel pump with the key on and not getting any spray, I'd guess it's the fuel pump. But as i said before, I don't know what the electrical testing you did (per richpin's fuel pump testing video) shows. May want to listen again for the faint whir of the pump when the car is at the on position

Doubtful that the gas is frozen, it'd have to be well below zero. I've not had frozen gas even at -10F, -20F nights. If your pump is good, filter is next likeliest suspect

Return the starting fluid to the store... it was meant to get a carbureted engine going so it could suck in gas and stay running. Won't help you if you're not getting gas to the engine and it does nothing to encourage gas into the engine either.

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Old 01-10-2010, 05:00 AM   #30
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

There's nothing wrong with having starting fluid for the occasional emergency or for testing. The idea of starting fluid is to spray it into the throttle opening for a second or two and trying a start. With EFI systems this is hardly needed but it can come in handy for some uses. Treat it like another tool to have for the occasional need. Simply using it will help determine an ignition or fuel issue by what occurs after application and attempts at starting.

Finding no fuel spraying out the fuel test valve may be the only hint of where this problem lies. Try cycling the ignition On again and listen (if possible) for the faint hum/hiss of the fuel pump out back in the tank. Its only going to run for 2-3 seconds so you can cycle the ignition as many times as needed but wait 30 seconds between ignition cycles to allow the pcm to reset the fuel run timer. After trying this go and press the fuel test valve again and expect a fuel spray but if not start checking the fuel system; fuse, swapping the fuel pump relay with a similar one like the horn relay, wiring, etc.. Freezing weather won't affect the fuel pump since its drowning in raw gasoline and gasoline doesn't freeze (normally). Freezing may affect wiring if connections are loose or corroded. Even the pump ground can be the issue with corrosion and a loose connection preventing the pump from running.

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Old 01-10-2010, 07:36 PM   #31
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Update.

Tried to check for whirring noise, but I cannot hear anything. Checked valve again, Nothing, no spray. So, it is beginning to sound like a fuel pump issue. I swapped relays, and checked fuses, but as far as I can tell, they are all good. I will check them again this week, but under the assumption that they are good, how could I physically check if it is the fuel pump or the filter, or something like that. A sound test, seems like it could be misinterpretted, and I don't want to do that. Should I jack up my car to take a look? Where exactly is the fuel pump located anyhow?

I have to say one thing, I have learned more about where parts are located during these diagnostic checks then ever before.

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Old 01-11-2010, 12:55 AM   #32
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Did you check all the fuses under the hood?

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Old 01-11-2010, 02:33 AM   #33
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Sorry to hear of more troubles as this may become very complicated next. The fuel system circuit will have to be checked in several ways. One can be to locate the fuel pump relay and become familiar with the pinouts where numbered pins concide with wiring diagrams to follow electrical wiring correctly. Here are the pinouts for the fuel pump relay;

87 - HOT 12v
30 - to fuel pump
86 - ground
85 - 12v control signal from pcm (engine computer)

Removing the fuel pump relay and figuring out which pins coincide with the numbering scheme will allow you to use a paper clip to physically short two pins in the relay socket, pins 30 and 87, sending 12v directly to the fuel pump to power it immediately regardless of ignition switch position. Measuring for the presence of 12v on socket pin 87 narrows down the problem to wiring from the fuse panel to the pump (in the tank), the pump, and the ground wiring from the pump to the car frame near the back of the car. If your car is severely rusted in many places, it may be either a loose/corroded ground or the fuel pump has finally worn out. Since its buried in the tank, sometimes banging the botom of the tank with the palm of your hand, several times, may jar a worn out pump into working again. Temporarily, as this verifies either corrosion of the wiring connections exists or the fuel pump is worn out. We're discussing a pump that's been in service for over 180,000 miles and nothing lasts forever.

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Old 01-11-2010, 10:46 AM   #34
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Ok. I have done the electrical test once already (Results Posted in this thread). However, I will run through them again, and use the paper clip technique in an attempt to further diagnose the issue. If this fails I will try to "jar" the pump into working.

One Question. Is there a Fuel Pump Filter that I could check to determine if it is merely clogged??? Or is this not something that happens?

Thanks again. This is starting to become an issue that may mean this car is donated to a local college.

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Old 01-11-2010, 12:28 PM   #35
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Quote:
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One Question. Is there a Fuel Pump Filter that I could check to determine if it is merely clogged??? Or is this not something that happens?
Not familiar with your year of car, but the last post here gives a general location for a 94
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=106737

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Old 01-11-2010, 02:13 PM   #36
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

A fuel filter being clogged won't have any bearing on the fuel pump running. It seems that you haven't heard any sounds from the fuel pump as it should be humming if its running with the jumper in place. The jumper wire is the only way to fully power up the pump to check it and pressure while going around searching for leaks, breaks, or failure. Even if the fuel filter is clogged, you'll be able to press an ear anywhere on the car, near the fuel tank, and listen for pump sounds. A total lack of pumping sounds (hum/hiss) would mean pump failure or wiring to/from the pump.

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Old 01-11-2010, 03:51 PM   #37
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

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A fuel filter being clogged won't have any bearing on the fuel pump running.
Agreed, but I think he's saying he doesn't trust his ears.

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Old 01-17-2010, 03:24 PM   #38
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Sorry for the delay in reply, but it is hard to find time in the week to check stuff. I did the jumper trick, but no noise. One thing of note however was that I tried it in the run position and I heard a whirring behind me just like everyone said. I checked the fuel valve, and it sprayed fuel. I waited and tried again... nothing. After about 10 minutes I tried the jumper trick again, and a little fuel spurted out, but still nothing. From this I am thinking that the fuel pump may just be shot, and it is desperately trying to work, but just doesn't function anymore. I jacked up the car to look for wiring issues, but couldn't see any, and I swapped fuses and relays galore, to no avail. What do you guys think???? Thanks for all the help.

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Old 01-17-2010, 04:40 PM   #39
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Unless someone more familiar with your '92 wiring can point out the pump ground wire, it seems to a worn out pump@180,000 miles.

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Old 01-18-2010, 10:24 AM   #40
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Thank you to everyone for all their help. Especially fdryer and alordofchaos. I will have to make a decision now about fixing it or donating it. It has been a good car, but I think this may have been the the preverbial straw on the camels back. Hopefully this post will help others with this issue.

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