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Old 01-06-2010, 08:20 AM   #1
DIY_Apprentice
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Default Help! Car Quit on me!

To anyone who can help,

I have a '92 SL2 with 180000 miles on it. Yesterday, I started it up at work, drove home, and the moment I got in the garage and slowed to a stop, the engine died. The next morning I tried to start it to no avail. I can here it cranking, but never turns over. I tried starting it in neutral and was able to successfully get it to turn over ONCE, but then died. I tried starting with accelerator on the floor in both park and neutral, but still just cranking. I recharged my battery and tried again, but same situation. A note, while recharging my battery, the charger would say "FULLY CHARGED" for a good 5-10 seconds, and then drop back to 6, then bounce back up to "FULLY CHARGED" for another 5 seconds or so. I am at a loss for what to do, and am contemplating buying a new car. I have read multiple forums, and come up with a list of possible issues:

Battery
Battery Cables
Spark Plugs
Starter
Fuel Lines (its 3 degrees out right now, but in a garage)
Fuel Injector

I think that was all I found as possible issues. From my description above, which is most likely? I will take the battery to Oreilly's for load testing tonight, but I thought I would post here to see if there is anything else it might be. I would really not like to put any more money into this car, so if the starter is shot I think it might be the used car lot for me, but any suggestion is appreciated. Thanks.

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Old 01-06-2010, 08:34 AM   #2
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

To be specific, be a little more clear about describing this dilemma. This is either a starter failure (no sounds from the engine when the ignition key is turned to the START position) or an engine that won't fire up as the starter turns the engine over. Which is it?

A no-start problem resides with the battery, battery cables, and the starter while the starting circuit includes the ignition switch, wiring, Park/Neutral safety switch or clutch safety switch, and wire ending at the starter solenoid.

If the starter turns the engine over but the engine never fires up, the most likely problem is a failed crank position sensor. Its located above and behind the starter, mounted with one 10mm bolt. Buy it anywhere.

BTW has the original coolant sensor been replaced?

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Old 01-06-2010, 08:38 AM   #3
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

We will need a few more symptoms. Does the starter turn the engine over as it should. If you have a low voltage condition, nothing will work properly. A good battery will start the car and allow it to run for a short time,even with a non functioning charging system. Fdryer is a faster responder than I and is correct in listing the main issues with these cars are the CPS and ECTS.

Last edited by hoseppi; 01-06-2010 at 08:43 AM..

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Old 01-06-2010, 09:44 AM   #4
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Thank you to those who have responded. I will do my best to answer your questions.

I am not very car savvy when it comes to sounds of different parts, but here goes.

When I turn the key to start, I do here sounds coming from the engine, it is not just a click and stop, but a constant "chugging", like the sound it makes just before it turns over, except it never turns over.

This is an automatic transmission, so no clutch, and I have no idea where or how to find the starter/CPS.

I also do not know if the coolant sensor has been replaced.

In response to the other question, it does not turn over and run for a short while, it has only "fired" once, in neutral, foot off the accelerator, and then died.

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Old 01-06-2010, 10:02 AM   #5
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Use the Forum Jump below and find the How-to library. You'll find several richpin videos to show you. Use the search feature for finding parts on the engine or a member can describe where things are.

Your best descriptions still seems to be cps related. Look for the videos on replacement, testing for spark, and maybe testing for fuel.

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Old 01-06-2010, 10:21 AM   #6
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Is there any way I can diagnose whether it is the crank position sensor before replacing it or do I just have to try it and see what happens?

Lastly, how long of a replacement would it be for someone like me. For reference, it took me 3 hours to replace serpentine belt (first repair of my life), and 8 hours to replace control arm assembly on front left tire (second repair of my life)?

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Old 01-06-2010, 10:35 AM   #7
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Well, you have to know whether or not the engine turns or rotates at all before you can try determining a cps problem. Have someone turn the ignition switch to START while you watch the engine. If the serpentine belt moves then the engine is turning over and its not a starter problem.

A spark test will help determine a failed cps. Remove the ignition coil wires, after taking careful notes of the firing order so the spark plug wires go back to the same places. Have someone turn the ignition key to the START position while you look for spark jumping across the ignition coil towers. A total lack of spark usually means a key ignition part failed, the cps. Another way to test the cps is to measure its resistance with a multimeter set to read ohms. The resistance measured across the two wires to the cps should measure 700-1200 ohms. An open or broken cps will not read any resistance and has failed. Replace it. A reading would mean the cps is not faulty and the problem lies elsewhere. A fuel test would be next.

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Old 01-06-2010, 10:43 AM   #8
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

If you have something to measure ohms, you can test the cps. It should read 740-800 ohms across the two terminals. It is easy to replace. 1 bolt, an o-ring, and an electrical connection attach it to your engine(just above/behind the starter). So we are on the same page, "turn over" is not the same as "start". P.S. I wish I could type faster.

Last edited by hoseppi; 01-06-2010 at 10:48 AM..

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Old 01-06-2010, 10:56 AM   #9
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Thanks to everyone for the quick responses. I will do the suggested diagnostic tests later today and see what I can find. If someone could elaborate further on the spark test, such as everything in more detail (I will check for a video on this), that would be helpful. Otherwise I will simply try the ohmMeter test. Thanks. I won't be able to check until late tonight, which sucks but oh well.

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Old 01-06-2010, 12:49 PM   #10
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

The "how to library" has a video by Richpin that shows how to test for spark.
Richpin has made over 40 videos covering in detail most repair/diagnostic proceedures. A picture is worth a million words.

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Old 01-06-2010, 01:04 PM   #11
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

This diagram shows the engine sensors. CPS is the callout in the bottom left.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer
Remove the ignition coil wires, after taking careful notes of the firing order so the spark plug wires go back to the same places
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIY_Apprentice
If someone could elaborate further on the spark test, such as everything in more detail
I haven't done this test myself, being a n00b like you but I believe this is the area in which you are checking for spark - pull the other ends of the spark plug wires off (I would label them with masking tape or something) and look for spark in the red area while someone else tries to start the car
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Old 01-08-2010, 01:23 PM   #12
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

All,

I was SOOO hoping it was the CPS, but alas, it is not . I performed the test of watching the serpentine belt, it moves, so it is not a starter issue.

I also did the spark test as demonstrated by Richpin's video, I get a spark, meaning it is not the CPS.

I am assuming that if there is a spark and there is movement on the serpentine belt, this rules out a battery issue as well. Therefore, I am at a loss as to what to check next?

Any and all help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Spark Plugs?
Fuel System? (Lines, injector, pump)?

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Old 01-08-2010, 01:30 PM   #13
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

I wouldn't rule out a Starter. When starters go bad, they sometimes work and sometimes don't...


What is the condition of the Alternator? Has it ever been replaced, to your knowledge? If it's original...Highly unlikely but possible, then maybe this would be a possibility as well.

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Old 01-08-2010, 02:05 PM   #14
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alordofchaos View Post
... being a n00b like you ...
Sorry, but at one year and almost 2000 posts, you're no longer allowed to be called a n00b.

For the OP - rudimentary fuel system test - turn off ALL accessories (radio and HVAC fan esp.), and make sure it's quiet where you are. Turn the key to RUN, but NOT to START. Listen behind you for a faint electric "whrrrr" for about 2-3 seconds; that's the fuel pump priming the system. If you _don't_ hear that, there's an electrical fuel system problem, such as a blown FUEL PUMP fuse, inop relay or wiring issue. Note: this ONLY diagnoses the pump, and tells you nothing about the fuel rail or injectors or fuel filter. But it's a start.

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Old 01-08-2010, 02:23 PM   #15
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

With a few things eliminated and another suggestion ^ ^ ^ to follow up on, be sure to check for the original engine coolant temperature sensor (ECTS). If found to be the original one, replace it immediately with the improved brass one as it may be flooding the engine during these starts. Removing the spark plugs will reveal whether or not the engine is flooded. You have two coolant sensors and the two-wire one is the one to check on. In the How-to library and videos. Flooded engines won't allow ignition to wet plugs. In a few instances, holding the gas pedal to the floor while starting may help to clear a flooded engine; it'll shut off the injectors and help dry out all the plugs at the cost of some battery draining until the engine starts up.

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Old 01-08-2010, 02:50 PM   #16
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Alternator has been replaced, at least twice. Any test I could do?

I tried to do the fuel pump test, but I couldn't hear anything. Is there a better test to make sure that I am not just overlooking something. I tried it a couple times to no avail.

Also, I was wondering, is the battery supposed to be dying super fast during these tests? After the spark test, the serpentine belt test, and the fuel pump test, I had almost 0 juice. I am recharging it now. Is this normal?

Thanks for all the help.

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Old 01-08-2010, 04:11 PM   #17
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Looks like the ECTS Connector has been replaced (Spliced Wires). Don't know for sure if the ECTS has. Removed the spark Plug Socket, there is a very small amount of red/orange liquid at the very very bottom of the well, is this wet or dry?

Last edited by DIY_Apprentice; 01-08-2010 at 04:19 PM..

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Old 01-08-2010, 04:22 PM   #18
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIY_Apprentice View Post
I tried to do the fuel pump test, but I couldn't hear anything. Is there a better test to make sure that I am not just overlooking something.
There's your trouble, I think. Unless there's ambient surrounding noise distracting you, you should've heard something. Check the FUEL PUMP fuse. The relay is also interchangeable with others in the car; IIRC, you should be able to swap it with the fan relay under the hood. Another thing you could test is the scrader valve in the fuel line just "upstream" of the injectors. There's probably a cap on it. After turning the key to RUN, there should be pressure there; press the valve stem with a screwdriver or something, just like a schrader tire valve, and fuel should spurt out.

Quote:
Also, I was wondering, is the battery supposed to be dying super fast during these tests? After the spark test, the serpentine belt test, and the fuel pump test, I had almost 0 juice. I am recharging it now. Is this normal?
It should have lasted longer than that. It depends on how many times you've tried to start it before, though. A slow charge from a charger will be good for the battery. If it still goes down after just a few diagnostics / attempts, it may be new battery time. Or it's possible you have a parasitic load.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DIY_Apprentice View Post
Looks like the ECTS Connector has been replaced (Spliced Wires). Don't know for sure if the ECTS has. Tried to remove Spark Plug Socket to check, but I can't get it off, is there some trick to it, or am I just that weak ?
If the connector's been replaced, that's almost a giveaway that the ECTS has been replaced. Not sure what you mean about the spark plug socket. To inspect the sensor, remove the connector by squeezing it. Someone else here just today had a good tip - there's a sensor that works exactly the same way, on the "horn" that takes air into the air box way up front. It's easy to reach, and you can use it to "practice" how to squeeze the connector in just the right place to be able to pull it off.

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Old 01-08-2010, 04:40 PM   #19
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Car batteries are not made for repeated, long starts if the engine won't fire up. You are effectively draining the life out of the battery; sooner with an older battery, later with a new one. The number of restarts all depends on how long the ignition key is held in the START position, the state of battery charge, and the starter. Each time a battery is used to power any starter, welding currents between 50-150 amps are used. That is a lot of juice to power a starter. Realistically, a battery may only give about 5 (total) minutes of starting. There's an awful lot of current moving out of the battery so the sooner an engine starts up the better for the battery because the engine running begins recharging the battery that was just drained of starting current. Once a battery is drained, it must be charged up again; a slow charger (less than 5amps) will take at least several hours while 10amp chargers will help to charge somewhat faster. Give these chargers at least an hour or several before using the starter again. This gives you the opportunuty to go over ideas and suggestions to check things.

Use a napkin and something to stuff down the well to soak up and retrieve for a feel/smell test. The coolant sensor can be judged by its profile, from pictures in the How-to library. Essentially the old one has squared shoulders below the hex shap and the replacement brass one had a rounded shoulder. The side by side comparison pictures shows this well.

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Old 01-08-2010, 06:24 PM   #20
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Default Re: Help! Car Quit on me!

Hi All,

Went through all Richpin's videos on Fuel Pump Troubleshooting and here are my results:

Trunk Connector, Gray Wire - 30mV when key is turned to "Run"
-Not sure if I am probing the right pin, but it is the only Gray Wire I could Find.

IP BATT Fuse - No voltage when Key in OFF position, 12.3V when Key in "Run"
both sides register.

Fuse panel in Car - Swapped relays, no luck. Tested Fuel Pump Relay, Always HOT pin has 12.1V, Trigger Pin has 11.89V when Key put to "Run". Fuel Pump 10A fuse Right side HOT at 12V.

Question - Do I have to remove the Spark Plug itself to check flooded engine, or merely the Spark Plug Socket/Boot?

Thanks for all the help guys.

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