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Old 10-09-2008, 09:38 PM   #1
Artemis
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Default 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

So I'm still having issues trying to get this thing to fire, I've uploaded a video, have a look and see what you guys think.

The downpipe isn't connected to the exaust, which is why the car sounds a little more grimey then it really should.
The car backfires early in the clip (much to the amusement of my brothers) and then we kept trying with no luck.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...69028&hl=en-CA

The guys that are helping with the job think it could be timing, as we have fuel/spark/air.

Any help / insight would be appreciated.

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Old 10-09-2008, 10:21 PM   #2
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

How do you have the plugs wired? If you can smell fuel at he exhaust manifold and you have spark it should run. The one backfire indicates that the firing order is incorrect. Also, twiddling the throttle will keep it from starting, or make it more difficult. The tag on the radiator support shows the proper firing order.

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Old 10-09-2008, 10:22 PM   #3
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

You may have a rare classic case of too lean a fuel/air mixture with backfiring. This is from the original engine coolant temperature sensor (ECTS) failure. Too lean a mixture does result in backfiring right into the intake manifold. Most coolant sensor failures result in too rich a mixture but there have been occasional leaned out conditions with backfiring as the symptom. There's a How-to library near the top with videos, pictures and procedures. Replacing it costs less than $20 and takes 5-minutes. Any auto store stocking the two-wire brass sensor will work.

If the firing order is incorrect; engine from left to right is 1234, ignition wiring is 4123 from the coils left to right.

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Old 10-10-2008, 02:20 AM   #4
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

+1 ^^^^ on the ects.

Did I do ^ that right?


Personally wouldn't crank the starter that long. I'm paranoid about burning it out.

You could always try putting a smidgen of gasoline in through the brake booster or pcv line. See if that helps get it started. I'm just going on the possible lean condition suggestion from fdryer. You never know right? Watch your face, keep it away from the lines and engine when you do this. Always keep a properly rated fire extinguisher handy as well.

Check for spark and compression. Go back to basics.

Sorry but that's all I can think of. Keep us posted. As helpful as this forum is your car should be running in no time if you can answer questions and follow directions.

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Old 10-10-2008, 08:36 AM   #5
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
This is from the original engine coolant temperature sensor (ECTS) failure.
I'll check this sensor, what does it look like and where is it located? I also may have the firing order incorrect, i'll have to check that out. ALSO, I'm not 100% sure we got the timing right. Is there a guide to the timing for this car? I don't really feel like having belt valves.

Last edited by Artemis; 10-10-2008 at 08:42 AM..

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Old 10-10-2008, 08:55 AM   #6
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
I'll check this sensor, what does it look like and where is it located? I also may have the firing order incorrect, i'll have to check that out. ALSO, I'm not 100% sure we got the timing right. Is there a guide to the timing for this car? I don't really feel like having belt valves.
Use the forum jump at the bottom of this page and go to the How-To Library. The second and third posts tell you what you need to know about thre ECTS.

The wiring order which is a little different than the firing order is as follows. Going from passenger side to driver's side the cylinders are numbered 1 through 4. On the coil packs from passenger side to driver's side they connect 4, 1, 2, 3.

Did you change the timing chain on this car? If that's off, you've got some bent valves. A compression test should make this evident. If you're talking about spark timing, the PCM controls that and there's no adjustment.

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Old 10-10-2008, 09:03 AM   #7
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

The timing chain was changed, but we were fairly certain we got the timing right at the time... not 100% sure now though. Is there a guide in the how-to for setting the timing?

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Old 10-10-2008, 09:12 AM   #8
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
The timing chain was changed, but we were fairly certain we got the timing right at the time... not 100% sure now though. Is there a guide in the how-to for setting the timing?
Not that I know of. Low Saturn's posted some decent pics. You might do a search for those. If you got the colored links where they belong, you should be okay.

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Old 10-10-2008, 09:34 AM   #9
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarnOwl View Post
If you got the colored links where they belong, you should be okay.
What do you mean, colored links?

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Old 10-10-2008, 10:07 AM   #10
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

I think what BarnOwl means is one or two links are painted as timing references for easier set-up. The pictures display them.

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Old 10-10-2008, 11:18 AM   #11
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
What do you mean, colored links?
My mistake, I was thinking about a DOHC. I really don't know whether it applies to an SOHC.

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Old 10-10-2008, 11:32 AM   #12
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

There is a pip and painted link that align on the cam sprocket when the crank sprocket is on the mark with #1 on compression and the painted links will be directly opposite the crank timing mark.

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Old 10-10-2008, 02:31 PM   #13
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

+1 on replacing the ECTS. Be sure to change the one with the two wire connector.

:/ I think you need to look at a service manual.

If your asking about the painted links, that clearly means you didnt know they were there. Which then indicates your timing may possibly be off.

http://www.therob.com/enginebuilding/build.php
This is for a DOHC. However the concept is the same for a SOHC.

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Old 10-14-2008, 08:42 AM   #14
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

took off the chain cover this weekend, fixed the timing, I found Low Saturns guide which made it very simple... minus the whole taking the chain cover off ofcourse. The car is still not starting though. Where is the ECTS sensor located? I could replace it no problem if I knew where it was. Btw, the spark timing was always correct, we had 4123 to begin with. Another important thing to note is that we're hot starting the starter with the key to position ON. For some reason turning the key won't start the starter. While on ON it does however give us spark.

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Old 10-14-2008, 09:52 AM   #15
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
took off the chain cover this weekend, fixed the timing, I found Low Saturns guide which made it very simple... minus the whole taking the chain cover off ofcourse. The car is still not starting though. Where is the ECTS sensor located? I could replace it no problem if I knew where it was. Btw, the spark timing was always correct, we had 4123 to begin with. Another important thing to note is that we're hot starting the starter with the key to position ON. For some reason turning the key won't start the starter. While on ON it does however give us spark.
If you "fixed" the timing, and you had it wrong before and were trying to start it, you probably have bent valves and no/little compression. Also, The ECTS is located on the drivers side of the cylinder head behind and below the coolant hose that goes to the radiator, and in front of and below the EGR valve. Your 94 will have 2 sensors there. One with 1 wire controls your guage inside the car, the other with 2 wires goes to the pcm. Saturns will NOT start if the ECTS is dead. If it's bad, sometimes they'll start and sometimes not. Get a brass tipped one from a Saturn dealer. Aftermarket ones aren't as good. AND, your key probably won't turn the starter over for any number of these following reasons:

Dead ignition switch.
Dead starter relay.
Bad clutch/starter interlock switch (if you have a manual transmission)
Bad wiring between any of these components.

Good luck.

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Old 10-14-2008, 09:57 AM   #16
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

Ok how did the car get in to this state?

You might want to double check you spark plug wires and make sure they are not mixed up and have the fireing order reversed.

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Old 10-14-2008, 10:39 AM   #17
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

Sorry, the only thing that would load was the first post.

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Old 10-14-2008, 10:41 AM   #18
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

Okay, so I know exactly which sensor is the ECTS now, and I'm 99% sure thats the problem here, it looks like its seen better days. Spark plug positions are correct as from the coilpack they're going 4123.

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Old 10-14-2008, 10:43 AM   #19
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilSL2 View Post
Sorry, the only thing that would load was the first post.
haha, no worries!

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Old 10-14-2008, 10:15 PM   #20
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Default Re: 94 Saturn SL - Still not starting. Video -

replaced ECTS, still no go.... any other thoughts?

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