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Old 04-30-2006, 02:05 PM   #1
Mr Joe Handyman
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Question Hot Air Intake?

We all know that installing a Cold air intake will increase the performance of the vehicle somewhat. There is some debate as to whether this will increase or decrease your gas mileage. I personally have experienced a 2mpg increase with my CAI. (As long as I'm not stomping on the accelerator.)

Typically if you increase performance you will sacrifice mileage, and with this in mind I came up with an idea, but haven't been able to find much info on my theory....

Would a Hot Air Intake increase your gas mileage?
Yes, I expect a loss in performance. Although if you put a cone filter right on the intake, would the increase in airflow make up for it? (Not saying there will be an improvement, but maybe not a loss.) Then it would suck in heated air from the engine compartment and the radiator, I figure that I could get the intake temprature fairly constantly over 100 degrees this way.

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Old 04-30-2006, 10:32 PM   #2
David Harleyson
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Default Re: Hot Air Intake?

Hmmmmm.....interesting theory. On the surface of it I would say no. Remember that as the air is heated it becomes less dense. That is, fewer molecules of air to help ignite the fuel. As the air charge becomes richer the O2 sensor will back off the injector flow to compensate. You will become so frustrated with this vicious cycle that you will step on the gas harder and eliminate any theoretical fuel savings. I'm sure the manufacturers have thought of this, so there may be something subtle I'm missing as the real reason no one uses this on their engines.

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Old 04-30-2006, 11:12 PM   #3
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Default Re: Hot Air Intake?

The easier it is to get air in and out of the engine the better your fuel economy will be. Any breathing mod will help but when you do those your right foot always seems to get heavier to take advantage of the extra power.
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Old 05-02-2006, 10:28 AM   #4
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Default Re: Hot Air Intake?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigc791
The easier it is to get air in and out of the engine the better your fuel economy will be.
then why do the restrictor plate motors in Nascar get approx 50% better mileage........

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Old 05-02-2006, 11:51 AM   #5
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Default Re: Hot Air Intake?

The simple answer is yes, hot air with the right technology will increase the thermal efficiency of the engine. Can you do it? Not a snowball’s chance in Hell.

The late Smokey Yunick developed a technology test bed that captured much of the waste heat in a reciprocating engine and put the heat to use in a super efficient and powerful engine. His experiment was not a simple bolt-on. Everything on the engine was engineered to make it work. The problem with hot intake air is that it makes the combustion process very detonation sensitive. What Smokey did is a complete redesign of the combustion chamber as well as the intake. The system captured much of the exhaust and coolant energy and passed it into the intake along with a turbocharger. But the turbo wasn't to increase intake pressure. It was, in his application, called a "homogenizer." The intent was to keep the vaporized fuel and air mixture homogenous and controlled from intake to combustion chamber.

My explanation is greatly simplified in the real complexity of the engineering design. In reality, the experiment was the most significant development of the internal combustion engine since Carl Benz. Yunick sold the technology to General Motors who never advanced the technology. Yunick attempted to sue GM to force them to develop his technology but it never went anywhere.

Gas turbines are another example of engines using hot air to increase combustion efficiency. They use a regenerator in the exhaust gas post-turbine to capture the exhaust heat energy and introduce it pre-compressor. This works fairly well in turboshaft engines since it’s the expanding gasses that make a jet create shaft horsepower and there are no detonation issues. The only downside here is packaging issues since the regenerator is an unusually large disc heat exchanger that revolves between the exhaust and intake.

So in theory, yes. In reality...you'll shoot your eye out.

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Old 05-04-2006, 09:23 PM   #6
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Default Re: Hot Air Intake?

I'm gonna give it a whirl, I've been getting about 22-23 in the city and 25-26 on the highway, so I'll give it a shot. I'll post a pic once I set it up, and then track my mileage here.

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Old 05-08-2006, 08:49 PM   #7
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Default Re: Hot Air Intake?

I was reading a Honda Insight hybrid forum awhile ago, and among some of the mods to increase mileage were blocking the radiator, and creating a hot air intake.

They were getting 80-100mpg using a slew of mods.


I'm kinda sure about what I just said.

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Old 05-17-2006, 04:17 PM   #8
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Information Re: Hot Air Intake?

okay, today I took a standard cone filter, (APC Intimidator,) this is not an oil filter so I don't have to worry about that. But I'm not sure how well the wash and reuse filters actually filter. The documentation says that it should be equivalent as my stock filter. I figure that that will last until I wash it the first time.
Anyway, I removed the intake hose, (didn't have to remove the airbox since I took it out for the CAI,) and took the temp resistor out of the intake. Then I pulled the rubber mounting flange off the cone filter and dropped the thermal resistor (TR) into it. I replaced the ruber flange and made sure that the TR was standing up and would not fall into the intake. (At some point I will post pics of this if you're interested.) Then mount the filter directly onto the intake and voila! (Note: this will not work with all filters, I had another filter that I wanted to use but the mounting flange was 3", intake is 2-1/4" OD)
It was at this time that I noticed that the hose going from the head to the intake wasdangling there, and not filtered. I can never remember if this sucks air into the engine or recirculates it into the intake. In either case, not having anything on this was going to me a problem. So, it's back to Wal-Mart.
Apparently they make a filter for this very thing, so here's another 10$ towards my experiment. Now I have two filters on my engine, looks kinda cool.
Lastly, I took my handy roll of duck/duct/hurricane tape, and covered up the holes where the airbox/bong was and the one on the side. Not sure if it will make a whole lot of difference, but it should prevent at least some unheated air from flowing into the engine compartment. I should have monitored the temp in the compartment earlier so I could compare it to see if this did indeed make a difference. Later I shall attempt that, but I'll need more funds for the remote temp sensor.

I'll post more info as I go through another tank of gas and calculate my MPG. Before doing this I was getting 23-26 with my CAI.

The noise level seems a little louder than the CAI, but not by much.

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Old 05-17-2006, 11:46 PM   #9
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Default Re: Hot Air Intake?

I thought someone had gone batty when I read the title of this thread. But now I'm intrigued. Do share your results after you fill up. Probably a few fill ups would be more meaningful.

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Old 05-18-2006, 07:03 AM   #10
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Default Re: Hot Air Intake?

I was reading some of CheapyBob's threads, and he says that he got up to 57mpg on his s-series Saturn. Although what he had done was a bit different, he actually insulated the heck out of his intake, and then ran a hose from the exhaust to the intake. Being that I don't want to void my warranty, I am not goint to cut a hole in my exhaust yet. There's also the issue of distance from the rear of the engine to the airbox. So I am hoping that by getting air right off of the hot radiator, and heated engine compartment, that I can achieve similar results. (not 57mpg, but a marked improvement would be real nice.)
I am also considering adding a resistor to the TR to fake the engine into thinking that it's hotter air so that it will switch over to lean mode. But first I need to get that silly thermometer so I can see if what I have done is changing things.

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Old 05-25-2006, 04:50 PM   #11
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Roll Eyes Re: Hot Air Intake?

UPDATE:

Okay, well the problem is that it sounds so great at WOT that it's really hard to keep your foot off the pedal. So the first tank is run and no improvement. There was a bout half city and half light freeway on this tank. But I spent most of the time taking off with the pedal on the floor.

MPG = 21. Bit of a loss so far. that's 2MPG below what it was with the CAI.

Next tank will see less city, and I'm gonna lay off the throttle.

BTW, I have always downshifted before braking. I am starting to think about it, even though I don't push the pedal when I do this, does it use more gas? I wouldn't think so, but since there are some ppl out here that are more familiar with newer engines I thought someone might know. I typically downshift whenever I need to slow down faster than I can coasting, and when I come to a stop. I typically don't use the brake pedal until about 30mph or less, and only very lightly. I know it prolly pisses ppl off behind me, but old racing habits die hard. Anyway, which is better? Braking, or downshifting? I may start another thread on this topic alone.

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Old 05-25-2006, 06:01 PM   #12
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Default Re: Hot Air Intake?

Yeah, maybe a shift off topic...
I had a friend that downshifted a Celica until a bearing went in his transmission.
Cheaper to replace the brakes than any parts of the drivetrain...
Now, I think it is a good idea to down shift while coasting to a stop in case you suddenly need to get going again. Like to avoid an collision or something. Just don't let the clutch out.

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Old 05-26-2006, 12:05 AM   #13
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Default Re: Hot Air Intake?

Depending on speed and rpm the pcm will completely turn off all injectors. By doing this the car uses no fuel at all.
Carmen

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Old 05-27-2006, 07:45 PM   #14
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Sad Re: Hot Air Intake?

Okay, well the experiment has been tanked as of today. Turned off the freeway and juddenly I lost all power, the Check engine light came on, and the Reduced Power light came on. Looking back, it seemed like it had less power when I was driving earlier, but I just chalked it up to being hotter than it's been and the engine running leaner from taking in hotter air. From what I have read, the timing chain is off, and that makes sense. Gotta put the stock intake back on it and take it into the dealer this week. Gonna be driving the wife's around for a few days.

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Old 05-31-2006, 11:38 PM   #15
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Happy Re: Hot Air Intake?

OKay, not tanked anymore, I was poking around this morning and re-installing the stock intake, when I noticed that the wire harness that connects to the TB was loose. After some testing, I found that this, indeed, was the issue. After resetting the check engine light, I took it out and it runs great again. Will have an update on the mileage tomorrow. I am taking it much easier on the throttle, braking lightly, and shifting when the idiot light tells me to most of the time.

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Old 06-02-2006, 11:39 AM   #16
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Default Re: Hot Air Intake?

okay, that sucked. I followed the shift light most of the time, didn't get heavy on the pedal, and kept an averadge speed of 65. More time was spend on the freeway on this tank than the last one.

Results: 19MPG

I'm gonna give it one more tank, then I'll put my CAI back together.

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Old 06-04-2006, 12:49 AM   #17
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Question Re: Hot Air Intake?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GearGuy
Yeah, maybe a shift off topic...
I had a friend that downshifted a Celica until a bearing went in his transmission.
Cheaper to replace the brakes than any parts of the drivetrain...
Now, I think it is a good idea to down shift while coasting to a stop in case you suddenly need to get going again. Like to avoid an collision or something. Just don't let the clutch out.
You mean downshifting and letting the clutch out isn't that great of an idea while slowing down to a stop, but downshifting while coasting with the clutch disengaged is good, right? Since the gears are disengaged, there is no harm in putting it in whatever gear you want (1, 3, 5, 4, 5, 2, 3, etc.) as long as you're coasting the whole way, right?

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Old 06-04-2006, 01:32 AM   #18
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Default Re: Hot Air Intake?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolATIGuy
You mean downshifting and letting the clutch out isn't that great of an idea while slowing down to a stop, but downshifting while coasting with the clutch disengaged is good, right? Since the gears are disengaged, there is no harm in putting it in whatever gear you want (1, 3, 5, 4, 5, 2, 3, etc.) as long as you're coasting the whole way, right?
Basically, that's my thought. But I would choose a gear that fits how fast the vehicle is moving.

Let's say you realize that a car is pulling out of a parking lot heading right at you and you notice that they don't see you. If you had shifted, you are ready to pop the clutch and accelerate out of the way. If you are still in top gear, you'll pop the clutch and bog the engine.

Basically when coming to a stop, put your left on the clutch, the right on the brake, and cycle down through the gears. Hold off on first until you pretty much come to a full stop.

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Old 06-09-2006, 10:36 AM   #19
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Thumbs Down Re: Hot Air Intake?

okay, 21 this time, kept it closer to 65-70 most of the tank and ran it for over 200 miles. This idea is definitely not paying off. I'm gonna build a little airbox to kep the compartment air from getting to my CAI and I'll leave it at that. Whole experiment was a huge failure.

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Old 06-09-2006, 11:05 AM   #20
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Default Re: Hot Air Intake?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Harleyson
Hmmmmm.....interesting theory. On the surface of it I would say no. Remember that as the air is heated it becomes less dense. That is, fewer molecules of air to help ignite the fuel. As the air charge becomes richer the O2 sensor will back off the injector flow to compensate. You will become so frustrated with this vicious cycle that you will step on the gas harder and eliminate any theoretical fuel savings. I'm sure the manufacturers have thought of this, so there may be something subtle I'm missing as the real reason no one uses this on their engines.
It has been done before. Anybody ever seen a heater tube on an older motor? My '89 Chevy pickup had one. An old Dodge Ram I used to had a slant 6. the intake and exhaust manifolds were on the same side of the engine and were bolted to each other in the middle where the carb sat. Inside the exhaust manifold directly under the carb base was a heat riser with a butterfly valve to direct hot air underneath the carb. this was to help warm it faster.

I agree with what you're saying about any possible gains being overshadowed by stepping on it harder because of a loss in power. Cold air is definately denser and does help power wise, but does hurt fuel economy. I track my mileage and can tell you I typically get 24-25 mpg in my trep in warm weather. Winter time, forget it, 22's, once 17 mpg when the temps were hovering around -20F.

Hot air, yes is less dense and you'll need less fuel to keep the a/f ratio correct. So the theory that you might see better fuel economy from hot air is a good thought. But, one thing to consider with heated air is that it combusts (along with the fuel) alot easier, so it can be too hot and lead to detonation (pinging) which is not a good thing. And if this pinging is considerable, it will actually worsen both fuel economy and power because the PCM will have to retard the spark timing to correct the spark knock (pinging). And if it can't, the check engine light will probably come on as well as possible engine damage from the uncontrolled detonation.

This isn't a bad idea to try, but pay close attention with your ears and listen for that pinging. If you hear it while using 87 octane, step it up to 89 octane. And that adds just one more added expense of this little experiment. The point of trying the heated air was to increase fuel economy (thus saving money). But if higher octane gas ends up being needed to make this work, it defeats the purpose since you end up spending more on the gas anyway.

Just my 2 cents.

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