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Old 03-26-2015, 08:50 PM   #1
1996SL11.9L
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Default Not the typical spark plug question

Has anyone tried the BKR5EK(B)-11 plugs in their DOHC? Its a twin ground Plug used on the toyota 3.4L with wasted spark like our saturns.....Every speck is the same as the BKR5ESA-11 except for the two ground arms.

Also has anyone used the colder plug in the SOHC engine? The 2002 SL1 I just got I've discovered has Bosch Platinum's and its got a intermittent miss but the plug I spot checked looked good

I like the above plug in our 97 4Runner and wondered how it would preform in the 1.9L.

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Old 03-26-2015, 08:52 PM   #2
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Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

here are examples of the EK plug compares to the other two OEM type
Attached Images
File Type: jpg BKR5ESA11ngk7755-1.jpg (36.4 KB, 44 views)
File Type: jpg BKR5EKB11_ngk_3967_pri_larg.jpg (10.1 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg BKR4ESA11_ngk_5424_pri_larg.jpg (9.7 KB, 46 views)

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Old 03-26-2015, 08:55 PM   #3
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

You can use the EK plug with no ill effects. I would pitch the platinum as they will not reliably reverse polarity fire.

These are DOHC heat range and change the 5 to 4 for the SOHC heat range which is hotter plug. The Delco is DOHC only.

Saturn OEM double platinum plug
AC Delco 41-808


NGK Plugs
BKR5ESA-11 OEM
BKR5E-11 V-Power
BKR5ES-11 OEM with ribs

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Old 03-26-2015, 09:13 PM   #4
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Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
You can use the EK plug with no ill effects. I would pitch the platinum as they will not reliably reverse polarity fire.

These are DOHC heat range and change the 5 to 4 for the SOHC heat range which is hotter plug. The Delco is DOHC only.

Saturn OEM double platinum plug
AC Delco 41-808


NGK Plugs
BKR5ESA-11 OEM
BKR5E-11 V-Power
BKR5ES-11 OEM with ribs
I have the SOHC......You say Delco is DOHC only......refering to the 41-808 double platinum as only for the DOHC?????

EDIT the EK plug is not available in heat range 4....5 is the hottest plug in a EK.

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Old 03-26-2015, 11:56 PM   #5
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1995 SL1
Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1996SL11.9L View Post
Has anyone tried the BKR5EK(B)-11 plugs in their DOHC? Its a twin ground Plug used on the toyota 3.4L with wasted spark like our saturns.....Every speck is the same as the BKR5ESA-11 except for the two ground arms.

Also has anyone used the colder plug in the SOHC engine? The 2002 SL1 I just got I've discovered has Bosch Platinum's and its got a intermittent miss but the plug I spot checked looked good

I like the above plug in our 97 4Runner and wondered how it would preform in the 1.9L.
I can't say for certain the heat range differences vs other brands, but IMO heat ranges are all over the map regardless. The NGK plugs ran hotter in my SOHC, and several have experienced that. The design of the original AC Delco plugs was obviously different in the nose area. The current Denso's that I'm running use a single heat range for both engines. Pick your poison and figure out which one works for you.

I wouldn't be too concerned with using the EK plugs with the cooler heat range in your single cammer. These days it seems more plugs tend to be on the hotter side in many applications as is. IIRC several people on the forums have confused the SOHC and DOHC plug numbers and reported no real issues until other forum members pointed it out.

I'm personally not fond of the multiple ground electrode plugs of any type. It just seems to me that the more ground straps you have, the more you would shroud spark. But the only real possible harm is to your wallet, and sometimes strange designs work. These days there are more and more combinations coming out, with some now having both platinum and iridium and/or titanium.

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Old 03-27-2015, 12:56 AM   #6
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Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Signmaster View Post
I can't say for certain the heat range differences vs other brands, but IMO heat ranges are all over the map regardless. The NGK plugs ran hotter in my SOHC, and several have experienced that. The design of the original AC Delco plugs was obviously different in the nose area. The current Denso's that I'm running use a single heat range for both engines. Pick your poison and figure out which one works for you.

I wouldn't be too concerned with using the EK plugs with the cooler heat range in your single cammer. These days it seems more plugs tend to be on the hotter side in many applications as is. IIRC several people on the forums have confused the SOHC and DOHC plug numbers and reported no real issues until other forum members pointed it out.

I'm personally not fond of the multiple ground electrode plugs of any type. It just seems to me that the more ground straps you have, the more you would shroud spark. But the only real possible harm is to your wallet, and sometimes strange designs work. These days there are more and more combinations coming out, with some now having both platinum and iridium and/or titanium.
I happen to have a slightly used set from the 4Runner I was going to throw in and see if anything is noticed............I do need to junk the Bosch plugs in now in any case........OldNuc never replied back when he said the Delco plugs were DOHC only...

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Old 03-27-2015, 08:24 AM   #7
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Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

The NGK heat range is backwards to Champion etc. 2 is hot, 12 is cold. You can run that ACDelco plug in a SOHC but as far as I know it was only fitted into the DOHC. It is entirely possible it was also used in the SOHC as it should work fine. If it turns black immediately in the SOHC it is too cold but as lean as you run that should not be an issue.

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Old 03-27-2015, 01:50 PM   #8
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Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

With a little rework to place all three plugs side by side, some food for thought may be needed when trying a different spark plug not recommended as a direct replacement. One issue not regularly discussed and not obvious is heat range. Using Paint to resize the plugs to match as close to each other as possible (presuming not too much distortion), the middle plug appears to have a longer nose/center electrode suggesting possibly a hotter plug compared to the others. Based on dimensions and a few other factors, using the basis of a longer center/nose electrode would imply heat taking longer to travel up the center to dissipate heat. This would mean, if I'm not mistaken, all other dimensions remain similar, a different heat range plug. If this plug isn't a direct replacement then careful assessment might be necessary by way of inspecting these plugs at the earliest convenience. Whether its done after a few miles, a hundred miles, a few thousand, depends on how the engine runs and taking the time to inspect them. Whether its a colder, hotter or unknown range plug, its in your best interest to make periodic inspections to see how they hold up. They may foul (cold range) or blister (hotter) sooner or later and the only way to assess plug compatibility is inspection whether or not any engine changes are felt. Fuel economy is another way to assess plugs, all other factors considered.

Since its well known that Saturns tend to run on the rich side to afford longer engine life as opposed to running on the lean side, experimenting the old school way thru trial and error has its good and bad points. Great if you discover a plug that works for all around performance, bad that it may not work out and/or having to inspect them as much as possible as mileage accumulates on these plugs to detect any adverse effects. Trial and error/old school phrase, beta testing/new school phrase
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Old 03-27-2015, 01:50 PM   #9
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1995 SL1
Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1996SL11.9L View Post
I happen to have a slightly used set from the 4Runner I was going to throw in and see if anything is noticed............I do need to junk the Bosch plugs in now in any case........OldNuc never replied back when he said the Delco plugs were DOHC only...
In the case of either plug, very little if anything to lose by trying. As a general rule of thumb a plug that is too cold will simply foul quicker with carbon deposits. In modern day days I seriously doubt one or even two heat ranges will foul quickly, and from what I've seen you would probably at a minimum get a good 10-15 thousand miles out of them even if they are too cold.

Unless testing has been revised since I was digging into it years ago, the tests used to decide heat ranges were fairly primitive tests similar to octane tests, based on set engine parameters. Being that more modern cars operate on a much wider range of variables taking place, heat ranges on the old school train of thought might not apply in the same ways. As an example, timing has huge affect on plug nose temperatures, and modern day cars change timing much more rapidly than older cars, often seeking the limits of timing under many conditions.

IIRC, higher end builds often used the 10x rule. A timing change of 10 degrees could change the nose temp of the plug as much as 100 degrees celsius. Plugs go through a lot, and on modern cars it's almost amazing that it all works to provide such a good running engine.



Going too hot can cause issues in a hurry. Just don't even go there without caution.

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Old 03-27-2015, 02:10 PM   #10
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Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

From reviewing service manuals, GM EFI systems describe timing as maintaining advanced timing unless issues force timing to retard with the goal to return to advanced timing for best all around performance. Put another way, maximum advanced timing retarded by conditions necessary to eliminate knock while attempting to return and maintain maximum advanced timing. I see this as part of technological improvements to EFI systems to take advantage of electronic tuning while maintaining restrictions on mandated emissions control. Since there are finite improvements that cost more for little gain with present internal combustion engines, only a few tweaks are available that have yet to show acceptance; LPG or hydrogen.

It will be interesting to follow this thread, experimenting with plugs.

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Old 03-27-2015, 11:12 PM   #11
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Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
From reviewing service manuals, GM EFI systems describe timing as maintaining advanced timing unless issues force timing to retard with the goal to return to advanced timing for best all around performance. Put another way, maximum advanced timing retarded by conditions necessary to eliminate knock while attempting to return and maintain maximum advanced timing. I see this as part of technological improvements to EFI systems to take advantage of electronic tuning while maintaining restrictions on mandated emissions control. Since there are finite improvements that cost more for little gain with present internal combustion engines, only a few tweaks are available that have yet to show acceptance; LPG or hydrogen.

It will be interesting to follow this thread, experimenting with plugs.
Things sure have changed since the days of springs, weights, and vacuum pots controlling the timing curves. In my younger years before the internet existed, I remember being given and in depth schooling from an old school engine builder. We often paid in labor, and most of those guys guarded some secrets from everyone. But it was quite an eye opener, and showed how much of an art it was.

Even with computer controls these days, it's still just another art form. When doing mods with my truck years back I did some experimentation with tunes, plugs, timing, fuels.... you name it. Using a dial type timing light, I found that both octane and plug could slightly alter timing at idle. I've come to accept that almost all modern EFI systems toss timing all over the place at idle, but I found it amazing that the system could adapt so quickly for minor things.



Being a data hound, I ran some numbers on my car from when I had the same drive cycle and great consistency for a number of years. I saw changes of 8% or so when using various different combinations of plugs and thermostats over the years. The cooler plug has given better return since the warmer running thermostat has been installed. It's quite possible that a hotter plug would have given better MPG with the stock temp thermostat.

I'm still interested in DIYguys IAT mod, and the effect it might have on timing as well.

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Old 03-29-2015, 06:31 PM   #12
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Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
From reviewing service manuals, GM EFI systems describe timing as maintaining advanced timing unless issues force timing to retard with the goal to return to advanced timing for best all around performance. Put another way, maximum advanced timing retarded by conditions necessary to eliminate knock while attempting to return and maintain maximum advanced timing. I see this as part of technological improvements to EFI systems to take advantage of electronic tuning while maintaining restrictions on mandated emissions control. Since there are finite improvements that cost more for little gain with present internal combustion engines, only a few tweaks are available that have yet to show acceptance; LPG or hydrogen.

It will be interesting to follow this thread, experimenting with plugs.
Saturns always keeping the ignition advance on the edge of knock is part of their "active knock retard" algrithm. They actually have a pattent on the Active Knock Retard that you can search for and read....its pretty indepth and explains which inputs it uses, and how it even tries to predict when it will happen based on IAT, TPS, Load, TPS.....etc.

Interesting you mention Hydrogen.....I wanted to play with HHO in the past. Now anyone mentioning HHO on a Thread usually gets flamed by everyone thats never tried it and say its imposible for it to work.........Even when the person has records to prove it. (a guy on the 4Runner forum I belong to comes to mind......)

I have decied to purchase the EK twin electrode plugs and throw them in this off stretch along with the steel-core arch surppression Bosch Preimum Plug wire set off the wrecked 96.

I really should not be changing anything without a baseline for MPG etc.....but can't help myself.

In this weather my 96 autromatic would have been touching the 1/4 tank mark. I am not quite 1/8 inch below 1/2 tank and have 290 miles on tank.Given calibration of gauge is unknown somewhat.When I bought the car the gauge was almost on "E" and the low fuel light was on. It took 10.2 gallons for the pump to stop on the slowest setting.

This engine has no problem on a flat road in 5th gear at 30mph and accelerate.

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Old 03-29-2015, 06:40 PM   #13
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Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

The dual electrode will even out ground electrode wear which is NOT an issue with 2 of the 4 plugs so plug rotation 1/4 and 2/3 will be required for best results. Why this is required has to do with the area of the center and ground electrode(s) and the current density + coil discharge potential. There is a remote chance that the center electrode arc area and the dual ground area will be equal and after 5 10,000 miles you will know the answer to this. If you waded through the active knock retard patent and it made sense then this will be easy.

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Old 03-29-2015, 07:10 PM   #14
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Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
The dual electrode will even out ground electrode wear which is NOT an issue with 2 of the 4 plugs so plug rotation 1/4 and 2/3 will be required for best results. Why this is required has to do with the area of the center and ground electrode(s) and the current density + coil discharge potential. There is a remote chance that the center electrode arc area and the dual ground area will be equal and after 5 10,000 miles you will know the answer to this. If you waded through the active knock retard patent and it made sense then this will be easy.
Its interesting about rotating the plugs thing.......The 3.4L in the 4Runner is also wasted spark and its never mentioned. Only that Toyota all but demands the dual electrode plug from NGK or Denso because of their tight combustion chamber....I have single electrode NGK Iridiums in currently and the engine hasn't blown up yet. And its not convient doing plugs in that engine.....But far easier then the plugs in the 4.7L of our Grand Cherokee.

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Old 03-29-2015, 07:14 PM   #15
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Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

Also.....I thought the theory behind multiple electrode spark plugs was so the spark always happened in the area with the highest concentration or fuel mixture. since the spark is only going to go to 1 of the two ground electrodes at any one time.

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Old 03-29-2015, 07:39 PM   #16
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Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

The spark occurs in the gap that ionizes to the lowest impedance first and the list of variables is lengthy. The design hope is that the electrodes wear relatively evenly and present an area somewhat equal to the center electrode without the manufacturing cost of the ground electrode button. This entire issue is not static analysis friendly. Concentrating the arc energy to a point is highly destructive but a point discharge is required to keep peak coil voltage (EMF) and current within design parameters.

Our illegitimate child in Washington (EPA) has decreed that plugs will last 1000,000 miles without change or some mileage close to that as they consider them emissions reduction components.

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Old 03-29-2015, 08:27 PM   #17
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Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
The spark occurs in the gap that ionizes to the lowest impedance first and the list of variables is lengthy. The design hope is that the electrodes wear relatively evenly and present an area somewhat equal to the center electrode without the manufacturing cost of the ground electrode button. This entire issue is not static analysis friendly. Concentrating the arc energy to a point is highly destructive but a point discharge is required to keep peak coil voltage (EMF) and current within design parameters.

Our illegitimate child in Washington (EPA) has decreed that plugs will last 1000,000 miles without change or some mileage close to that as they consider them emissions reduction components.
Hee Hee

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Old 03-29-2015, 09:31 PM   #18
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Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
With a little rework to place all three plugs side by side, some food for thought may be needed when trying a different spark plug not recommended as a direct replacement. One issue not regularly discussed and not obvious is heat range. Using Paint to resize the plugs to match as close to each other as possible (presuming not too much distortion), the middle plug appears to have a longer nose/center electrode suggesting possibly a hotter plug compared to the others. Based on dimensions and a few other factors, using the basis of a longer center/nose electrode would imply heat taking longer to travel up the center to dissipate heat. This would mean, if I'm not mistaken, all other dimensions remain similar, a different heat range plug. If this plug isn't a direct replacement then careful assessment might be necessary by way of inspecting these plugs at the earliest convenience. Whether its done after a few miles, a hundred miles, a few thousand, depends on how the engine runs and taking the time to inspect them. Whether its a colder, hotter or unknown range plug, its in your best interest to make periodic inspections to see how they hold up. They may foul (cold range) or blister (hotter) sooner or later and the only way to assess plug compatibility is inspection whether or not any engine changes are felt. Fuel economy is another way to assess plugs, all other factors considered.

Since its well known that Saturns tend to run on the rich side to afford longer engine life as opposed to running on the lean side, experimenting the old school way thru trial and error has its good and bad points. Great if you discover a plug that works for all around performance, bad that it may not work out and/or having to inspect them as much as possible as mileage accumulates on these plugs to detect any adverse effects. Trial and error/old school phrase, beta testing/new school phrase
Somehow I missed this comment.........I usually pulled plugs at oil change on my 96, especially with it being a oil burner.....So i'm in the habit of checking them anyway. The Bosch Premium wire set held up well to being removed often without pulling apart. Plus their a life time warranty. I'm on set #2 and bought the first set in 2009 when I got the 96. last year a plug wire pulled apart so its set is relatively new.

I will keep this thread informed as well as possible. When I am not working (4 to 5 days off between 4 or 5 day work stretches) I make many short 1-3 mile trips. then when I'm working I'll rack up 62 miles a day. So it will be interesting how the 1 heat range colder plug preforms.

Edit: I will use the Oil change minder to change oil on this 2002. so unless something feels funny or MPG is crapy I'll most likely be looking at them every 5000 miles or so depending on what the monitor says.

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Old 03-30-2015, 03:36 PM   #19
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Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

So this first tank was 42.6mpg with the bosch platinums. I ordered the EK plugs from NAPA. Tomorrow morning they will be in. Then the playing will commence. The guy at the counter knows me well enough to not ask questions. However, when I told him I needed plugs for a 97 4Runner and only wanted 4 he had that look on his face...........

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Old 03-30-2015, 03:54 PM   #20
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Default Re: Not the typical spark plug question

It is easier to give them a real part number and quantity and answer no more questions.

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