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Old 07-17-2016, 12:19 PM   #21
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Default Re: power loss

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Originally Posted by monte0 View Post
I just did all the brakes including new wheel cylinders and calipers. Never had a check engine light and their isn't any rolling resistance. No cargo, fuel the same too and ran injection cleaner too. Temp is good except it gets hotter on the x-way plus it has a new t-stat, radiator, hoses and coolant.

Have noticed the vtec doesn't really kick in consistently. And when I went on a long drive from NY to Michigan and back it picked up power again. Then lost it a few days after getting home.

I did find something odd when I did a though check over yesterday though, one coil pack out of 6 is brown inside and theirs no oil leaks at all so. I have no misfires but thinking of changing it anyways.
Check all plugs for correct torque ... FSM lists 13 ft-pd as correct value which some folks think isn't much more than finger-tight - the brown coil appears to be exposed to cylinder blowby indicating a very loose plug in that hole.

The best way to calculate power loss - if there are no trouble codes - is to have a set routine to measure power available.

A timed hard launch from 0 to 60 mph ever so often isn't a bad thing assuming the road is safe and timing belt is not overdue a change.

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Old 07-17-2016, 12:28 PM   #22
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Default Re: power loss

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Check all plugs for correct torque ... FSM lists 13 ft-pd as correct value which some folks think isn't much more than finger-tight - the brown coil appears to be exposed to cylinder blowby indicating a very loose plug in that hole.

The best way to calculate power loss - if there are no trouble codes - is to have a set routine to measure power available.

A timed hard launch from 0 to 60 mph ever so often isn't a bad thing assuming the road is safe and timing belt is not overdue a change.
All the plugs were tight (not overly) and I did the timing belt last fall (no issue's after the belt, only happened recently)

It's definitely noticeable when sometimes you merge into traffic it feels weak, then other times it's fine. One thing I can't get a definite answer on is whats the plug gap? I did the plugs last fall to and they said gap was .040, but I've seen some places say .044 If the gaps off that isn't going to help either

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Old 07-17-2016, 02:10 PM   #23
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Default Re: power loss

I use quality iridium plugs and have never had to adjust gap on one out of box.

I've attached extract for ignition specs (sparkplugs) and you'll note permitted gap ranges from .039 to .043 with two plug numbers recommended.

Malfunctioning knock sensors will retard timing to reduce power but PCM should raise a flag if a sensor issue is detected.

However, the PCM will also retard timing to reduce power if it determines low grade fuel is being used (with signals from knock sensors).

If some system problem affects engines ability to make power uniformly - say reduced fuel pressure and flow, or electrical power to ignition system, a misfire code probably wouldn't be set.

Fuel pumps don't last forever so I'm curious if you've noticed extended crank times between engine starts and have you considered connecting a gauge to monitor fuel pressure?
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Old 07-17-2016, 06:36 PM   #24
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Default Re: power loss

Thanks for the info, I used NGK's when I did them a while back. These 3.5's don't require high octane fuel right? Never seen anything indicating it.

And as for fuel pressure it was within spec's late time I checked, but might recheck it tonight just to cover all basis

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Old 07-17-2016, 10:35 PM   #25
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Default Re: power loss

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These 3.5's don't require high octane fuel right?
I've used lots of different fuels in my 3.5 - including 87 octane - with no problems noted.

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Old 07-18-2016, 10:08 PM   #26
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Default Re: power loss

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I've used lots of different fuels in my 3.5 - including 87 octane - with no problems noted.
Yea I tried to and no issue. Two other questions, where is the schrader valve for the fuel rail? Not as easy to find as most GM's. And when I did the new o2 sensors I used the NTK ones instead of the denso's. DO the Honda's have issue's with NTK's?

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Old 07-18-2016, 11:13 PM   #27
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Default Re: power loss

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Yea I tried to and no issue. Two other questions, where is the schrader valve for the fuel rail? Not as easy to find as most GM's. And when I did the new o2 sensors I used the NTK ones instead of the denso's. DO the Honda's have issue's with NTK's?
i use NTK sensors - work great ... and here's pix of 3.5 fuel test port - just forward of master cylinder reservoir.
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Old 07-19-2016, 09:33 AM   #28
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Default Re: power loss

Thanks for the pic. I see why I missed it, mine was tucked up under the heater hoses lol. So fuel pressure when pump is primed is 48, when running it's 58 steady under rpm changes or idle.
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Old 07-19-2016, 09:37 AM   #29
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I did scan and drive in different conditions and the temp stayed pretty comes to the 206-213 range. Not sure what these are noted for being at but I did notice when changing the t-stat that it's rated for 170 degrees which I though was low compared to other gm cars at 195 degrees.

On a side note do you know what the fuel system 1&2 parameters are? They say OL-Drive in both on accel and crusing it says NA
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Old 07-19-2016, 11:55 AM   #30
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Default Re: power loss

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I did scan and drive in different conditions and the temp stayed pretty comes to the 206-213 range. Not sure what these are noted for being at but I did notice when changing the t-stat that it's rated for 170 degrees which I though was low compared to other gm cars at 195 degrees.

On a side note do you know what the fuel system 1&2 parameters are? They say OL-Drive in both on accel and crusing it says NA
The Honda 3.5 coolant circulation system is way different than what I grew up with - such as small block chevy (last one was 2004 pickup with 4.3) - where thermostat controls flow to radiator and radiator return flow is to engine block then cylinder heads.

The Honda 3.5 thermostat is in the return side from radiator and controls flow from radiator which goes to heads first - then engine block.

The 170 thermostat almost always keeps my coolant temp slightly above 180 at highway cruise on a warm-hot day.

Words below in italics are extracted from GM service manual for the 2004-07 3.5 engine.

Cooling System 2004-2007Vue - 3.5L (L66)
 Thermostat Begins-to-Open Temperature 76-80C 168-176F
 Thermostat Full Open Temperature 90C 194F
 Water Pump Displacement - at 6,000 RPM Per Minute 176 liters 186 qts


Forum members with a coolant temp monitor report a typical highway cruise coolant temp around 180F. The thermostat will maintain this range during most engine load ranges with sufficient air flowing through radiator.

If driving conditions are stop and go, or any situation resulting in low or no airflow - with A/C Off (radiator cooling fans not running) engine coolant temperatures will continue to rise above 200F until cooling fans are enabled. This usually occurs in range of 208 - 210F.

Fuel System 1 and 2 OL parameters indicate PCM is in closed loop. Open loop means PCM is NOT providing fuel trim based on HO2S 1 information and open Loop fuel control occurs:

* At engine start up
* When fuel injection is increased just after engine start up.
* When the engine coolant temperature (ECT) sensor is indicating a low coolant temperature.
* When the engine is operating under a high demand, such as at wide open throttle (WOT).
* During fuel cutoff
* When the HO2S 1 is cold--Open Loop operation.

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Old 07-19-2016, 12:44 PM   #31
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Default Re: power loss

Ok, definitely different then your normal. I like you, I grew up on small/big block engine. And I also used to build, modify and tune SC'ed 3800 series 2 and 3 motors for years.

So I'm definitely running hotter then your saying is the normal, even with a new thermostat, radiator and water pump. And I'm seeing cooler temps and slow/stopped speeds. Highway it climbs. Engine didn't run any cooler before I did that work either. I'm thinking it has to be the cats, not much else it could be then. Partial clogged cats would cause a lot of what I'm seeing too.

Also thanks for the info on open loop/closed loop. I'm used to seeing regular gm cars actually outputting it instead of the way Honda does it. I should of caught that

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Old 07-22-2016, 09:53 PM   #32
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Did some more checking and scanning. Today it was around 90* out and cruising along around 45-50 or faster, the temp gets up to 208-210 on my scanner. If you turn on the AC the temp goes up to 212-214 steady, which is on the high side so not going to run ac till this is fixed.

Did check the fuel pressure and its around 55-58psi which seems normal for a GM. Pulled both front O2's and they look fine (slight white spot on the hot side).
Radiator is flowing fine. No vac leaks I can find but I'm going to check idle vac tomorrow if you can tell me far2grumpy what the specification is at idle. Zero misfires or codes

I did go to the Honda service place to ask them to check my cats and they said you can't (which I find weird cause you can). They told me the only way they check is pull both O2's out and run it to see if the power comes back, if it does then cats are bad. So went to talk to my friend that is a GM tech and he said he could check the cats doing a pressure test (which is what I figured) or do the same as Honda suggested.

One thing I did try is getting into it a few times to watch the fuel trims and O2's. The lftf's are reading around 0 to -2 which is good, O2 MV on the honda's I don't know the specs so can't tell if their right. Plus what should the map be reading at idle and cruise?

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Old 07-23-2016, 07:02 PM   #33
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Default Re: power loss

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte0 View Post
Did some more checking and scanning. Today it was around 90* out and cruising along around 45-50 or faster, the temp gets up to 208-210 on my scanner. If you turn on the AC the temp goes up to 212-214 steady, which is on the high side so not going to run ac till this is fixed.

Did check the fuel pressure and its around 55-58psi which seems normal for a GM. Pulled both front O2's and they look fine (slight white spot on the hot side).
Radiator is flowing fine. No vac leaks I can find but I'm going to check idle vac tomorrow if you can tell me far2grumpy what the specification is at idle. Zero misfires or codes

I did go to the Honda service place to ask them to check my cats and they said you can't (which I find weird cause you can). They told me the only way they check is pull both O2's out and run it to see if the power comes back, if it does then cats are bad. So went to talk to my friend that is a GM tech and he said he could check the cats doing a pressure test (which is what I figured) or do the same as Honda suggested.

One thing I did try is getting into it a few times to watch the fuel trims and O2's. The lftf's are reading around 0 to -2 which is good, O2 MV on the honda's I don't know the specs so can't tell if their right. Plus what should the map be reading at idle and cruise?
I usually note around -20 in Hg for vacuum with idling engine (730 RPM).

My vacuum gauge connection information is in last post of this thread:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...83#post1915083

I don't understand why your temps are higher than I monitor on my family of Vue's. (Each has scan gauges so I can monitor coolant and transmission fluid temps).

I wouldn't be too concerned about the 214 you notice because the 3.5 temp gauge redline is at 245 deg F.

I usually ignore the MAP because its all over the place at idle on on road. The changes at idle are constant as PCM is playing with purge valve to move fumes from carbon canister for burn.

You can use vacuum gauge to test for obstructed cats (and complete exhaust). I'll paste a document I found on web several years ago - I've lost the source but I can't take credit for the document.

TESTING CATALYTIC CONVERTER (8-11-12)

The catalytic converter is our main line of defense against air
pollution, so it's important to make sure it is functioning
efficiently and passing exhaust without creating undue
restrictions that might reduce performance, fuel economy or
emissions. That's one of the reasons for periodic vehicle
emissions testing. If the converter isn't working, you won't pass
the test.

If the your converter is plugged, it will create a restriction in your
exhaust system. The buildup of backpressure will cause a
drastic drop in engine performance and fuel economy, and may
even cause the engine to stall after it starts if the blockage is
severe.

The easiest test for converter plugging is done with a vacuum
gauge. Connect the gauge to a source of intake vacuum on the
intake manifold, carburetor or throttle body. Note the reading at
idle, then raise and hold engine speed at 2,500. The needle will
drop when you first open the throttle, but should then rise and
stabilize. If the vacuum reading starts to drop, pressure may be
backing up in the exhaust system.

You can also try to measure back pressure directly. If your
engine has air injection, disconnect the check valve from the
distribution manifold, and connect a low pressure gauge. Or,
remove the oxygen sensor and take your reading at its hole in
the manifold or headpipe. Refer to the back pressure specs for
the application. Generally speaking, more than 1.25 psi of
backpressure at idle, or more than 3 psi at 2,000 rpm tells you
there's an exhaust restriction.

If there appears to be an exhaust restriction, disconnect the
exhaust pipe just aft of the converter to relieve pressure and
recheck the readings. CAUTION: The pipes will be hot so wait
awhile for things to cool down. If vacuum goes up and/or
backpressure drops, the problem isn't a plugged converter
but a plugged muffler or collapsed pipe. If there's little or no
change in readings, the converter is plugged.

Just because a converter is passing gas doesn't mean it is
okay. If the catalyst inside is contaminated or worn out, high
carbon monoxide (CO) and/or hydrocarbon (HC) readings will
be present in the exhaust. If you have access to a high
temperature digital pyrometer (an IR thermometer is best),
check the converter's temperature fore and aft. A good
converter will usually run 100 degrees F hotter at its outlet than
its inlet. Little or no temperature change would indicate low
efficiency, or a problem with the converter's air supply.

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Old 07-23-2016, 07:11 PM   #34
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Default Re: power loss

Thanks for the info, very helpful. It's definitely weird why it runs so warm compared to just last summer since I replaced the radiator, t-stat and hose last year. I'll check the vacuum and I've got a laser temp gauge so I'll measure the temps in/out of the cats. I'll post back tomorrow

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Old 07-24-2016, 08:10 PM   #35
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Checked the vacuum today and reads ok at idle (about what you said). As for the cats I tried a method that was recommended by an old freind that doesn't require me to disassemble anything. Was told take a heat reading right before the cat and right after at a rpm of 2-2500k rpm's. On a correctly working cat the inlet should be colder then the outlet if working, if inlet is hotter then outlet then the cat isn't working.

So gave that a try and found that on the front before the cat I'm seeing around 500F, after 370F. On rear before cat I'm seeing around 630F, after 510F. What do you think about this test? The temps were closer together when only running for a short time, after about 15min the differences were much more and the engine temp started getting into the 200F area

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Old 07-24-2016, 09:47 PM   #36
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Default Re: power loss

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte0 View Post
Checked the vacuum today and reads ok at idle (about what you said). As for the cats I tried a method that was recommended by an old freind that doesn't require me to disassemble anything. Was told take a heat reading right before the cat and right after at a rpm of 2-2500k rpm's. On a correctly working cat the inlet should be colder then the outlet if working, if inlet is hotter then outlet then the cat isn't working.

So gave that a try and found that on the front before the cat I'm seeing around 500F, after 370F. On rear before cat I'm seeing around 630F, after 510F. What do you think about this test? The temps were closer together when only running for a short time, after about 15min the differences were much more and the engine temp started getting into the 200F area
I agree your cats sound squirrely - you mentioned a fellow who could do GM pressure test to confirm (or you could do vacuum test mentioned in my previous post). I'm no cat expert but IIRC if cat-con operates normally the outlet temps are generally 100 deg F higher than inlet temps.

I do have personal experience with blown head gaskets and warped heads after putting too many miles on a horizontal four cylinder engine with obstructed exhaust. As I recall my clues were reduced power and elevated cylinder head temp (the engine had a gauge for that).

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Old 07-25-2016, 06:52 PM   #37
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Default Re: power loss

Re-check my vacuum today and it's still at 15-16 @idle. Also did the test for the cat using vacuum and the vacuum only drops for an instant then rebounds quickly.
So by the vacuum way it shows fine but using the temp way it shows restriction. Any other thoughs besides what we discussed

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Old 07-25-2016, 09:11 PM   #38
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Default Re: power loss

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Re-check my vacuum today and it's still at 15-16 @idle. Also did the test for the cat using vacuum and the vacuum only drops for an instant then rebounds quickly.
So by the vacuum way it shows fine but using the temp way it shows restriction. Any other thoughs besides what we discussed
15 - 16 is not good ... I take care of four 3.5 Vues and never see less than 20. Your low reading could mean vacuum leak but based on power problems I suspect an obstruction.

Have you mentioned mileage?

BTW ... it doesn't have to be bad cats ... perhaps theres something farther downstream ... crimped pipe, resonator or muffler - restricting flow?

You may have to do pressure test and then break exhaust open after y-pipe to isolate problem.

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Old 07-25-2016, 09:36 PM   #39
monte0
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2005 VUE Red Line
Default Re: power loss

I checked heat readings down the pipe though all the resonators and muffler and didn't see anything obvious. No damaged pipes either. It's weird though that I'm seeing higher temps on the rear cat more then the front since their independent of each other.

I'm going to see if I can split the exhaust after the cats and see but I'm not getting a good feeling on this. I priced out the cats too and even aftermarket they are expensive.

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Old 07-25-2016, 09:50 PM   #40
monte0
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Default Re: power loss

Just setup an appointment for tomorrow eve for getting cats pressure checked...

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