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Old 02-07-2018, 02:57 AM   #1
Eiron
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Default Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

28.Apr.17 -- 1999 SW2, purchased from a local Saturn repair shop with ~138,000 mi on the clock.
Receipts showed 5W-30 conventional oil fill and "standard" filter at last oil change.
Baseline oil consumption established (over next 2,000 mi) at approximately 1 qt per 1,500 mi.

The Goal -- Clean internal engine components to reduce/reverse oil consumption.

The Plan -- Run a 10,000 mi application of Auto-Rx and Group III "synthetic" Rotella T6 5W-40 HDEO;
Change filters several times during the application;
Evaluate results and determine follow-up actions.

29.Jul.17 -- Changed oil and filter at ~140,400 mi, using 10 oz Auto-Rx, Rotella T6 (Grp3 syn) 5W-40 HDEO, and "long" (L20195) filter.
First 2 qts of makeup oil contained an additional 2 oz/qt of Auto-Rx.
Oil consumption remained relatively consistent at 1 qt/1,500 mi.

28.Jan.18 -- Changed filter only (L20195) at ~145,100 mi.
Total makeup oil for 4,700 mi (including filter replacement oil) is approx 3 qts.
Disassembled filter #1 and inspected (pictures attached).

I'll continue to use Rotella T6 5W-40 for makeup oil during the remainder of this Auto-Rx application. Since the percentage of A-Rx will diminish as I add fresh makeup oil, I expect the application to gradually transition from "cleaning" to "rinsing." I also expect that this will allow more crud to release from the inside of the engine, requiring more frequent filter replacements. Based on how much crud coated this entire filter, I plan to replace filter #2 after only 3,000 mi (~148,000).

Picture notes: (hopefully in order!)
1) Disassembly of filter can assembly via hammer and chisel
2) Grit remaining in filter can after draining
4) Disassembly of filter media assembly
5) Entire length of filter media (approx 50% stretched)
6) Heaviest collection of crud (directly above knife blade)
7) Crud deposit collected
8) Crud size comparison
9) Crud thickness comparison
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 4700_01.JPG (132.5 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg 4700_02.JPG (112.3 KB, 58 views)
File Type: jpg 4700_04.JPG (147.0 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg 4700_05.JPG (76.9 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg 4700_06.JPG (147.9 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg 4700_07.JPG (160.9 KB, 47 views)
File Type: jpg 4700_08.JPG (148.4 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg 4700_09.JPG (104.5 KB, 43 views)

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Old 02-07-2018, 10:59 AM   #2
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

The Rotella is doing something. Thatís for sure.
Good documentation. Congratulations on your linear thought process. You are part of the solution.

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Old 02-07-2018, 11:49 AM   #3
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpdraft View Post
Good documentation. Congratulations on your linear thought process. You are part of the solution.
+1, this will be interesting to follow. I was tempted to try Auto-RX after the last thread, never got around to it

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=137191

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Old 02-07-2018, 02:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

I never tried AutoRX in my Saturn, just in an old Toyota. My experience with Rotella T6 5W40 has been good with Saturns -- they really seem to clean up these sooty engines and hold a lot of crud in suspension. Over the course of several years it seemed to improve my oil consumption figures from 1200/1300 miles/quart to 1800+ miles.

One question, though. I thought AutoRX recommended adding it to regular dino oil with a high detergent factor, such as Pennzoil Yellow Bottle, or maybe Rotella T/T4 vs. a full synthetic.

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Old 02-07-2018, 03:28 PM   #5
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

I've had much better luck BG109.

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Old 02-07-2018, 05:42 PM   #6
Eiron
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpdraft View Post
The Rotella is doing something. Thatís for sure.
Good documentation. Congratulations on your linear thought process. You are part of the solution.
Thanks!
Yes, from my experience in the other vehicles I've done, the combination of A-Rx and Rotella T6 is the best 'recipe' for this process.
I'll open and photograph filters #2 and #3 when their times are up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alordofchaos View Post
+1, this will be interesting to follow. I was tempted to try Auto-RX after the last thread, never got around to it
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=137191
Huh, I didn't see that one when I was doing my search here. But I did find this one. It's interesting (to me) that the folks in your linked thread saw compression improvements, but not consumption improvements. I'd think better oil control would follow better compression sealing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hholbein View Post
I never tried AutoRX in my Saturn, just in an old Toyota. My experience with Rotella T6 5W40 has been good with Saturns -- they really seem to clean up these sooty engines and hold a lot of crud in suspension. Over the course of several years it seemed to improve my oil consumption figures from 1200/1300 miles/quart to 1800+ miles.

One question, though. I thought AutoRX recommended adding it to regular dino oil with a high detergent factor, such as Pennzoil Yellow Bottle, or maybe Rotella T/T4 vs. a full synthetic.
I agree, getting the deposits into suspension and carried into the filter is a good thing! Since HDEO/dual-rated oils are designed to deal with the high piston deposits, soot, and particulate loads of diesel engines, they excel at this.

Yes, A-Rx has always recommended using conventional oils for several reasons. Initially, 'cost of use' was a primary concern due to the (originally) short application time and frequent oil changes during the process. Additionally, there was no distinction made between base oil groups, so all "synthetics" were lumped together. A-Rx is an ester-based cleaner with a high attraction to metal surfaces. Group IV (PAO) and V (includes ester) are the same way, and 'interfered' with A-Rx's cleaning process (making it look bad). Since Group III oils are highly processed conventional oil, they don't have the same metal polarization properties. I was running a Saab turbo engine, which are known to abuse oil, and I was unwilling to run conventional oil. T6 is a Group III "synthetic," so there's no competition with A-Rx's chemistry, and it's also designed for turbo-diesel engines.

Then, there was a small group of us experimenting with longer-than-specified application runs, and seeing better success than with the shorter runs. A-Rx eventually extended their application run times, but even now they're only recommending 3,000 mi. (Back then they were recommending 500 mi, then they upped it to 1,000 mi, then they upped it again to 1,500 mi; I was doing 5,000 mi applications at that time.) For a short while they also only recommended Grp3 oils if you wanted to use a synthetic, but I don't see that recommendation any more. This will be the longest application run I've tried, but I think the history of these engines warrants it. And I definitely want to use the larger filter, since it holds about twice as much dirt/crud as the standard filter.

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Old 06-02-2018, 01:57 AM   #7
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

Continuing my cleaning process:

29.May.18 -- Changed filter only (L20195) at ~148,300 mi.
Total makeup oil for 3,250 mi (including filter replacement oil) is approx 1-1/2 qts.
Disassembled filter #2 and inspected (pictures attached).

Disassembly and inspection were carried out in the same manner as before. As anticipated, more crud was released in a shorter period of time. I'm including pictures of the filter media endcaps to show the grit on them. (The only way this would be a concern is if the filter got so plugged up that it went into bypass mode.) On filter #1 the largest clumps of crud were concentrated in two of the pleats. This time the largest clumps had collected across five pleats! [Note: crud collection from both filter #1 and filter #2 were only from these localized clumps and not the entire filter.] The good news is that oil consumption is now down to about half of what it was before I started the cleaning process. (Now approx 1 qt per 3,000 mi)

I'll continue to use Rotella T6 5W-40 for makeup oil during the remainder of this Auto-Rx application. I was originally planning to change the oil and filter in another 2,000 mi (10,000 total), but with the increase in crud release and decrease in oil consumption I'm now thinking of going for 3,000 mi (11,000 total). The advantage of this is that I could run the next T6 OCI for 9,000 mi total and keep changing the filters out every 3,000 mi. I'll have to give it some more thought ....

Picture notes: (hopefully in order!)
1) Disassembly of filter can assembly via hammer and chisel
2) Grit remaining in filter can after draining
3) Disassembly of filter media assembly
4) Entry/exit endcap
5) Bypass encap
6) Heaviest collection of crud (from pivot pin to knife tip)
7) Crud size comparison
8) Crud thickness comparison
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 8000_01.JPG (187.0 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg 8000_02.JPG (164.3 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg 8000_03.JPG (205.0 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg 8000_04.JPG (167.6 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg 8000_05.JPG (192.3 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg 8000_06.JPG (200.6 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg 8000_07.JPG (158.5 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg 8000_08.JPG (89.2 KB, 17 views)

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Last edited by Eiron; 06-02-2018 at 02:05 AM..

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Old 10-22-2018, 06:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

Continuing my cleaning process:

01.Oct.18 -- Complete oil (Rotella T6) and filter change (L20195) at ~151,400 mi.
Total makeup oil for 3,100 mi is approx 20 oz (!!)
Disassembled filter #3 and inspected (pictures attached).

Disassembly and inspection were carried out in the same manner as before. I was very surprised to find no clumps of crud buried in the pleats of the filter! Similarly, the endcaps were relatively clear of grit, with only the baseplate showing noticeable amounts. I had to scrape 6 or 8 pleats to get the small amount of crud shown in the pictures. As hoped, oil consumption is now down to about 1/3 of what it was before I started the cleaning process!

I used Rotella T6 5W-40 for the change and will use it for makeup oil during the "Rinse" application. With so little crud in this filter, I'll plan on changing the filter (only) at around 4,300 mi, and then doing a complete oil and filter change at 8,600 mi. That will put me at 160k mi on the car, and at that point I'll switch over to a true full syn (Group IV, PAO) dual-rated oil on a strict 10,000 mi Oil Change Schedule.

Picture notes: (hopefully in order!)
1) Disassembly of filter can assembly via hammer and chisel
2) Grit remaining in filter can after draining
3) Grit remaining on baseplate
4) Disassembly of filter media assembly
5) Crud size comparison
6) Crud thickness comparison
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 11000_01.JPG (167.4 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg 11000_02.JPG (132.9 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg 11000_03.JPG (195.4 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg 11000_04.JPG (193.4 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg 11000_05.JPG (187.6 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg 11000_06.JPG (135.6 KB, 15 views)

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Old 10-23-2018, 08:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

I also had VERY good results with Rotella T6 in various Saturn twin cam engines. I have no experience with Auto-RX.

Best,

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Old 10-23-2018, 10:56 PM   #10
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

I have no empirical data but i found 5w30 M1-EP far superior to T6 5w40. Burned less at least

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Old 10-24-2018, 02:27 PM   #11
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

VUEmaniac, I think regularly using any dual-rated oil will have the same benefits. It just takes longer than also using A-Rx. I believe Mobil 1 10W-40 High Mileage (at the same cost/qt) is a better oil to use in these engines, but I'm using T6 for several reasons:
1) Since it's not a "true" synthetic, it doesn't compete with the A-Rx cleaning process like Mobil 1's Grp 4 oil would
2) I'm running extended oil changes (10k+ mi/1+ yr), and T6's Grp 3 construction and 5W-40 vis range allows me to do that

jhonky, I'm glad M1 EP works for you. Have you tried M1 High Mileage oils? They should reduce burning and clean better, especially either the 10W-30 or 10W-40 versions.

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Old 03-01-2019, 01:51 AM   #12
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

Continuing my cleaning process, Rinse Phase:

26.Feb.19 -- Changed filter only (R85516) at ~155,600 mi.
Total makeup oil for 4,200 mi (including filter replacement oil) is approx 2 qts.
Disassembled filter #4 and inspected (pictures attached).

Disassembly and inspection were carried out in the same manner as before. Since the 3rd/final Clean Phase filter looked so clean, I wasn't really expecting much in the way of crud this time. Boy, was I wrong! Nearly as much crud was collected this time as was from filter #2. Also similar to filter #2, the largest clumps here had collected across five pleats. [Note: crud collection from this filter was only from these localized clumps and not the entire filter.] Beyond these clumps, the rest of the pleats had a pretty even coating of silt. Oil consumption is also comparable to that heavily crud-loaded filter #2 (approx 1 qt per 3,000 mi after you subtract filter-replacement oil). A note about the new filter: the Carquest "red" R85516 is literally identical to the Purolator L20195, down to the number stampings on the threaded baseplate and the printed production line info on the top end of the can. And it costs 25% less than the L20195.

During this previous stage I went against my own recommendations and used about 1/2 qt of Mobil 1 0W-40 as part of the makeup mix. I was out of T6 and had the Mobil 1 on-hand, so I was really just being lazy. From experience I know this oil to be more volatile than T6, so I'm really not concerned that consumption crept back up a bit. For this last 4,400 mi Rinse segment I'm using Delo 400 XSP synthetic 5W-40 (Grp III syn) for makeup oil. It was priced about 15% less than T6 and the results here should be the same.

Sensory notes: The collected crud looks a little "wetter" in the photos due to the oil not draining away as readily in the cold weather. All of the crud I've collected from the engine tends to have a gritty/sandy feeling when first rubbed between the fingers, but it quickly transforms into a smooth smear with no hard bits.

Picture notes: (hopefully in order!)
1) Disassembly of filter can assembly via hammer and chisel
2) Grit remaining in filter can after draining
3) Disassembly of filter media assembly
4) Bypass endcap and grit
5) Heaviest collection of crud (from pivot pin to knife tip)
6) Crud size comparison
7) Crud thickness comparison
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Rinse4200_01.jpg (75.1 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg Rinse4200_02.JPG (180.5 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg Rinse4200_03.jpg (73.6 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg Rinse4200_04.JPG (174.6 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg Rinse4200_05.JPG (187.4 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg Rinse4200_06.JPG (189.9 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg Rinse4200_07.JPG (125.9 KB, 13 views)

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Old 03-01-2019, 02:46 AM   #13
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

Thanks for the long-term updates on the gradual cleanup. 1 qt every 2k miles is pretty respectable! Next time I change my oil, I'm going to use a bottle of AutoRx I have left over from a Toyota flush regimen that worked well + Rotella T6. Right now I'm running some M1 Diesel Truck 5W40 oil that I got on sale for $12/gallon and I seem to be getting about 1800 miles/qt.

Before I started using Rotella T6, I was burning 1 qt every 1.3k miles, so I've seen steady improvements in the past 45K miles.

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Old 03-01-2019, 02:37 PM   #14
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

Interesting update, especially the chunks and the CARQUEST filter. Thanks!

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Old 03-01-2019, 03:22 PM   #15
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

hholbein, I'm glad I can contribute to the collective knowledge base. Yeah, the A-Rx is just a faster version of what you're doing. I think most people try to rush the A-Rx process and end up dissatisfied with the results. My experience with it has definitely taught me to run both the Clean and Rinse phases for considerably longer than what they suggest. It's an ester oil (I think 100%?), so it's going to continue working for as long as you keep it in there. Only add in 10 oz from the bottle and mix the remaining 2 oz into your next two qts of makeup oil (1 oz/qt) to help keep the ratio up for a while longer, and swap out the filter at least once (depending on how long you decide to run it).

alordofchaos, glad to help! If you have an Advance Auto Parts near you, grab the L20195 off the shelf and ask them to bring an R85516 from the back. Then check 'em out side-by-side.

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Old 03-01-2019, 04:15 PM   #16
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

I will check out the filters for sure next time I'm in the market. That's a nice "discount"

I think I still have about a year's worth of PL20195 (from sales) and about two or three years worth of air filters (Rockauto closeout, bought a whole box of them)

I should have bought some Auto-RX after I found T6 for $3 a gallon after rebate last year (well, I should have bought more T6, too , was a good price even at $10 a gallon without rebate)

Just tried to buy some Auto RX but got a DNS error. Weird

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Old 11-10-2019, 04:46 PM   #17
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

It has been over 8 months since your last post in this thread.

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1993 SL2 SOLD @189k

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Old 11-17-2019, 03:25 AM   #18
Eiron
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1999 SW2
Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

Yeah, sorry!
The car has just reached 160k mi and I plan on changing both the oil and filter this coming week. That will give me about 9k mi (13 mos) on the oil and 5k mi (9 mos) on the filter. I'll let the filter drain for a bit before tearing it down and taking pictures, but consumption has been pretty stable so I'm not expecting to find much.
But then again, I wasn't expecting to find much last time, either.....

...
He's dead Jim!
You grab his tricorder, I'll get his wallet.

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Old 11-27-2019, 02:30 AM   #19
TomM96
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Default Re: Cleaning my engine using Auto-Rx and HDEO

Good thread/project.

The 'crud' you display on the knife blade appears identical to deposits that I've discovered within the cam cover, on/in the oil fill baffle assembly.

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