SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series Tech
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-16-2019, 01:12 AM   #1
RobertGary1
Master Member
RobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 4,091
 

1996 SC2
2006 VUE 3.5L
Default Compressor pump type

I was curious what type of pump our ac compressors are. I figured this vintage would likely be a 4 piston pump but possibly a scroll pump. Nope itís a vein pump n
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg 67083075-8DAD-47B9-B2B3-564E25BB24D2.jpeg (101.4 KB, 24 views)

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to RobertGary1's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help RobertGary1 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
RobertGary1 is online now   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 05-16-2019, 09:01 AM   #2
bumpdraft
Master Member
bumpdraft is just really nicebumpdraft is just really nicebumpdraft is just really nicebumpdraft is just really nice
 
bumpdraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,968
 

1998 SC2
1998 SW2
Default Re: Compressor pump type

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertGary1 View Post
I was curious what type of pump our ac compressors are. I figured this vintage would likely be a 4 piston pump but possibly a scroll pump. Nope itís a vein pump n
That explains the grey crud and why it could be completely harmless.

...
Competition Clutch 10Lb. Flywheel. 14 stalls to date (and loving it).

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to bumpdraft's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help bumpdraft reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
bumpdraft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2019, 10:44 AM   #3
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 66,000
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: Compressor pump type

The gray crud is usually aluminum wear particles. Possibly the result of the PAG oil getting wet and becoming an acid to nicely etch the aluminum compressor.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2019, 01:15 PM   #4
billr
Master Member
billr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,789
Default Re: Compressor pump type

I think the crud, although somewhat normal, is hardly 'harmless".

Another interesting feature of these compressors is the throttling plate on the intake. That seems to result in system pressures that are not the normal for r134A. That difference in pressures caused me some problems when I was repairing my '94. You can't use the commonly-found temp/pressure charts.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to billr's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help billr reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
billr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2019, 01:36 PM   #5
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 42,261
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Compressor pump type

Steel vanes rubbing against bare aluminum chamber walls. Normal lubrication from refrigerant oil circulating thru a system with a full charge prevents dry vanes from scraping chamber walls. Liquid refrigerant moves oil thru a system. Once refrigerant level drops from a slow leak, return oil ceases (less refrigerant to move oil around) and vanes run dry, scraping off fine slivers of aluminum.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2019, 08:55 PM   #6
TomM96
Senior Member
TomM96 will become famous soon enoughTomM96 will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,564
Default Re: Compressor pump type

Are the vanes steel or fiber/plastic ?

I think we need someone to machine a Hard SS casing, with polished surface, into the cast Aluminum house, then upgrade the wipers if necessary.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to TomM96's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help TomM96 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
TomM96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2019, 11:05 PM   #7
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 42,261
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Compressor pump type

Steel vanes. Bare aluminum chambers. Steel vanes are centrifugally thrown outwards from momentum to maintain light physical contact to maintain pressure without leaking. No modifications needed. Compressor relief valves are set to around 550 psi. I doubt fiber/plastic can withstand high pressures and temperatures in vehicle ac systems. Normal compressor pressures are around 125-250+ psi with refrigeration temperatures above 150F. When operating in normal conditions (sealed from the factory like refrigerators, room ac units, freezers) they last forever. The key to understanding refrigeration - they're lubricated for a lifetime as long as the system remains sealed. What destroys vehicle ac systems? Meddling from assumptions of a can of refrigerant with sealer will fix one. A leak means a system is no longer sealed and compressor malfunction can begin from assumptions of a quick repair.

Once a system leaks, losing refrigerant means no way to circulate oil since liquid refrigerant moves oil around a system. No refrigerant, no oil lube, compressor destruction. Add assumptions by many of the pressure sensor failure (they don't fail) and bypassing it to get a compressor to run without refrigerant to move oil around and the steel vanes run dry. Voila! Compressor destruction from uninformed diyers attempting quick repairs as dry steel vanes scrape bare aluminum, creating fine particles to flow throughout a system to clog tiny passages in condenser coils and receiver/drier. Vehicle ac systems are as complex as turbocharging. No one meddles with turbocharging on factory systems and those refusing to learn the basics usually blow up their engine on the first try as boost is increased without dealing with lean mixture issues. No one should meddle with vehicle ac systems unless willing to spend time and effort learning refrigeration, diagnosing, troubleshooting and using all the equipment necessary for correct repairs. No preaching or standing on a soapbox. I perform all ac repairs and use personal equipment acquired over the years to make a successful repair never requiring 'topping off'. The goal of every ac repair is to restore it back to factory condition. If I can do it, anyone can.

Last edited by fdryer; 05-18-2019 at 11:11 PM..

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2019, 05:34 PM   #8
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 42,261
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Compressor pump type

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
I think the crud, although somewhat normal, is hardly 'harmless".

Another interesting feature of these compressors is the throttling plate on the intake. That seems to result in system pressures that are not the normal for r134A. That difference in pressures caused me some problems when I was repairing my '94. You can't use the commonly-found temp/pressure charts.
What do you consider commonly found temperature/pressure charts? I use service manuals, period. Not whatever is found from googling. Service manuals have specific charts for dealer services as well as anyone interested in performing ac repairs. The reference charts I use always tell me what to expect, diagnose and if troubleshooting is needed to make correct repairs. As you probably know, ac temperature/pressure charts also correlate to ambient temperatures and humidity that affect operating pressures. This isn't part of refrigeration temperature/pressure charts.

Almost every t/p chart for specific refrigerant like r134a are the same as this comes from the chemical manufacturers charting compressed gases in a set volume while temperature and pressures are varied to arrive at a universal acceptable reference. I can't recall whether Boyle's or Charles Law applies here but it is one of them. By no means are these charts used for precision pressure references when evaluating vehicle ac systems. That's what service manuals are for, to allow more precise references based on specific configurations, making manuals customized for anyone to use. Guessing by using general refrigerant t/p charts is just that, guessing. In one way, when repairs are performed correctly and short cuts aren't used, refilling a system to specified amounts of refrigerant is the easiest way to restore ac function. Gauges are still needed for evacuation to tell whether or not a leak still exists which leads to monitoring a system as refrigerant is injected. Following correct repairs, system pressures should mimic service manual charts at whatever ambient temperature/humidity exists.

I use refrigeration t/p charts to correlate freezing point and hot temps with discharge pressures. Not for vehicle repairs.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2019, 08:11 PM   #9
RobertGary1
Master Member
RobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 4,091
 

1996 SC2
2006 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: Compressor pump type

I agree there is no generic pressure chart. There are too many different types of pumps and set ups. GM is moving away from publishing any charts and instead just say to pressure the charge button on the dealer equipment. Not sure what we can do about that.

-Robert

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to RobertGary1's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help RobertGary1 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
RobertGary1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2019, 12:30 AM   #10
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 42,261
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Compressor pump type

Presuming r134a isn't replaced any time soon, the old standby of charging a system with the amount specified on underhood labeling still stands. This presumes a system that's repaired for any reason is evacuated using the correct refrigeration gauges and vacuum pump to ensure a near absolute vacuum exists and zero leak back occurs. Once a system is near a perfect vacuum and holds, the specified amount of refrigerant is injected. This satisfies exact amounts without guessing. While dealers and repair shops have additional equipment to meter amounts to the nearest half ounce, diyers not having expensive refrigeration equipment and electronic scales can resort to carefully weighing canisters on an electronic bathroom scale or carefully guesstimate. A little common sense goes a long way sometimes.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2019, 06:49 PM   #11
TomM96
Senior Member
TomM96 will become famous soon enoughTomM96 will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,564
Default Re: Compressor pump type

> (sealed from the factory like refrigerators, room ac units, freezers)

Given the concerns for ozone & greenhouse effects, I think we/they should build auto AC systems sealed (except for hose connections), to eliminate the shaft seal... which i assume is worst leaker.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to TomM96's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help TomM96 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
TomM96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2019, 07:28 PM   #12
billr
Master Member
billr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,789
Default Re: Compressor pump type

It's coming. Once everything is a battery EV the shaft seals (and hoses, too) will be gone. It would take a massive alternator to drive the size electric motor needed for a motor-in-compressor system.

R1234yf is already replacing r134a, no need to wait for r134a to become obsolete...

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to billr's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help billr reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
billr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2019, 07:30 PM   #13
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 42,261
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Compressor pump type

There are zero reports of shaft seal leaks. Try and find one in these forums. If you do then its one in a few thousand or hundred thousands. Mechanical engineering had decades of practice to develop long life seals. I personally replaced one back in the early '80's. It was removable thru the front but a special tool was needed so a drawing from the service manual showed the tool and I made one from aluminum tubing. This was an r12 system. I don't work in the auto industry and I do not know if other auto manufacturers have front seal problems. There are probably more rumors spread about front seal leaks and faulty pressure switches than facts. Just my two cents. My '03 L300 is 16 yrs old with several repairs to the ac system. On it's original compressor and zero indication of oil anywhere around the clutch area. A hot day today in the upper 80's forced me to turn on ac. Outlet temps still show 42F, the same as the year I bought it in '05. It's a vane type compressor with variable displacement.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2019, 09:20 PM   #14
RobertGary1
Master Member
RobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 4,091
 

1996 SC2
2006 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: Compressor pump type

Iíve had shaft seal leaks on various compressors including one on an S series.
R-1234 is implemented so poorly I hope it fails. Only one company makes it so the cost is 100 times the cost of 134a.

-Robert
609 and 608 epa

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to RobertGary1's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help RobertGary1 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
RobertGary1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2019, 11:10 PM   #15
billr
Master Member
billr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of lightbillr is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,789
Default Re: Compressor pump type

100X the cost of R134a??? I'm used to seeing prices of *only* 10-15X. It's certainly expensive, but not 100X.

It doesn't matter if R1234yf is costly or doesn't work as well as R134a, it's "global warming potential" is 1/1000 of that evil R134a; it is going to be used regardless of the costs or problems. It can't fail because the governments (led by our beloved CA) will insist it be used.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to billr's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help billr reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
billr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2019, 01:41 AM   #16
RobertGary1
Master Member
RobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of lightRobertGary1 is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 4,091
 

1996 SC2
2006 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: Compressor pump type

I should say that most of the time Iíve found shaft leaks have been from compressors that day on the shelf for awhile. I general S series compressors are very reliable.

-Robert

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to RobertGary1's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help RobertGary1 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
RobertGary1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Power steering pump return hose - type of hose Upstate Saturn S-Series Tech 7 12-12-2014 12:17 AM
Need help on the AC compressor oil type, 07 Vue V6 covenant Vue General 2 10-22-2014 06:26 PM
Growling noise coming from either compressor or water pump chris015 S-Series Tech 4 10-22-2013 11:31 AM
can replace a type 2 valve body with a type 1?? twincharged S-Series General 0 02-05-2013 09:31 PM
Air conditioning compressor pump getting hot. oseberg S-Series Tech 4 06-30-2007 06:17 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:52 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.