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Old 03-04-2009, 07:11 AM   #1
ClapDaddy
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Dizzy Look in the Mirror

When I come to Saturn-Fans, it seems like I am at a GM or Foreign make Bulletin Board.
If ANYONE posts something that is Positive about Saturn or its future, they are immediately jumped on by a select few.

So for a week whenever I had a break, I looked at the Board and saw these “few” individuals on-line. It must be nice to have a job that allows you to closely monitor the “Saturn-Fans” web site.

But what is more confusing, is WHY these “few” posters wait to, what it feels like, attack anyone who disagrees with them.

Healthy discussion is GREAT because we learn from differing view points. I learn quite a bit from Saturn-Fans and it helps me to be a Better “Fan” and Sales-Consultant.

I also try to see what if ANY Saturns these “few” have owned. This gives a clue to some of “these” posters.

The main question for everyone of us who are FANS of Saturn should ask ourselves; “How many NEW (not used) Saturns have we purchased or have influenced “others” to purchase?

Any company survives by selling its NEW product. Saturn would IMO, still be in Spring Hill, building Various models if the Sales had been there. All the Vehicles would still have Polymer Panels and the unique Union-Management Agreement would still be in force. But it is hard to ask the “Mothership” for more products when you are NOT bringing home the Bacon.

Some of the things that changed Saturn:
• Wilmington – They did not subscribe to the Saturn contract, pitting Spring Hill workers against Wilmington workers.
• Canceled Homecomings
• Union workers forced into the Traditional UAW Contract.
• Promises of unique looking Saturns but instead received Clones that the Divisions shared.
• Building a Vehicle in Mexico
• Bringing a Vehicle to the U.S. that did not have the basics that our owners wanted.
• The end of the 30 day/1500 mile return policy
• The end of the 30 day/1500 mile exchange policy.

But something that everyone should know. Jill has worked very hard to keep Saturn, Saturn. Unless you have met or spoken to Jill, you should reconsider YOUR view of her. She has the Saturn passion that some here, have lost or may never had. Jill takes the cards that she has received and works with her team, to make the BEST of them.

I have been fortunate to have met Skip LeFauve, Joe Kennedy and Jill. They were part of the many reasons that I not only sell Saturns, but also owned them. This forum WAS another reason. I still remember rec.auto.saturn group as well as the OLD Prodigy Board. A few of us were in constant battle with those who were NOT informed about Saturn or just wanted to “stir” the pot. Some of you may remember “Steve” from the rec.auto NewsGroup. I now feel as though we have several “Steves” posting here now.

Today, the Saturn Values are still in place. I use them everyday with every guest. It is a joy to come to work and help those who have been “hosed” by the Dealers and fast talking Car Salespeople. To take that customer who has ALL their defenses up and make it an enjoyable experience.


In conclusion, LOOK IN THE MIRROR and ask yourself, “What have I done to keep Saturn, the Company that I cared about?”

...
Al ClapDaddy

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Old 03-04-2009, 09:20 AM   #2
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Default Re: Look in the Mirror

Very well said. I think it sums up what a lot of long-time Saturnfans are feeling.

You are right. There are a few "fans" who seem to like nothing better than to give a play-by-play of the possible demise of the company that for whatever reason has drawn us to become members of this website.

Nobody likes what is going on at Saturn right now, but all segments of the auto industry have been affected during these tougher economic times, and it is very possible that some companies will not survive - not just in the auto industry (although that segment seems to be the most affected), but in many businesses everywhere.

If some members are really that disappointed with Saturn, maybe it is time for them to move on.

My .02.

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Old 03-04-2009, 09:45 AM   #3
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Default Re: Look in the Mirror

It's pretty simple....A good number of Saturn lovers on this board are frustrated with what they see as a total screw up by GM. The fact the folks on here are so passionate is really an affirmation of the hard work Saturn employees have done over the years to make customers happy. If GM had scrapped Buick I doubt you'd be hearing much from the few who buy that brand.

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Old 03-04-2009, 09:52 AM   #4
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Default Re: Look in the Mirror

That point has been made, and made, and made, and made, and...well, I think you get the idea.

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Old 03-04-2009, 10:53 AM   #5
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Default

Hi Al,

Thanks for the continued backing that you show for Saturn and the leaders in the division. As a long time and now four model Saturn owner I know your thinking is well justified.

I had not expected to like the non-poly products but now that I am driving one (when it is offered on very temporary loan from its main driver in our family) I am more pleased than ever with the product's quality, performance and appearance. One of the reasons my wife loves to drive our 2008 1 Mode Hybrid Seabreeze Vue is because of the adhoring comments she gets - they are as frequent.

I continue to drive our plastic body Vue - purchased within weeks of its debut - and manage 27mpg in mixed driving. Milage has always mattered to me. I long for my sw2 with its 35mpg in mixed driving but it was time to make the change.

Mostly, I want to offer my thanks once again for your posts - which I think I have been reading since 1994. You and Charlie have made the Saturn community fun to be in.

-Scott

94SL2, 95SW2, 02Vue, 08Vue Hybrid

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Old 03-04-2009, 11:50 AM   #6
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Default Re: Look in the Mirror

Presently, this country (and the world) are in an economic meltdown.

I highly suggest all to view the PBS documentary from Frontline: Inside the Meltdown.

LINK

We would not be having this conversation if the above did not happen.

I think most people are just plain angry. They have seen their savings/retirement/IRA shrink and continue to shrink. They have seen others become unemployed and worry themsleves. The self-employed have seen business shrink or decline.

All have witnessed 'smart' people make major miscalculations or mistakes or downright break the law.

People are frightened and angry and it shows up on these postings here.

People are dissappointed that 'smart' people have placed the Saturn Brand in this current position.

Sadly, some people just don't know how to react to this grand economic meltdown and how it relates to the Saturn Brand.

So they vent here.

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Old 03-04-2009, 12:02 PM   #7
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Default Re: Look in the Mirror

Good lord....being compared to Steve Scharf. That's it, pistols at 20 paces, Al!!!

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Old 03-04-2009, 12:47 PM   #8
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Default Re: Look in the Mirror

Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
That point has been made, and made, and made, and made, and...well, I think you get the idea.
I think the counterpoint has been made, and made, and made too. Both sides of this discussion are valid. None of what we say here is going to make any difference to the outcome so I don't see any harm in having folks speak their mind (whether it's pro or con).

Regards,

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Old 03-04-2009, 01:10 PM   #9
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Default Re: Look in the Mirror

To that I say, look at the threads right now that are posted in General Saturn Discussion. Look at the titles, look at the thread starters, and read their posts.

I, for one, do not care to hear anymore how much GM lost yesterday, how much sales are down this minute for Saturn, GM, Saturn of Canada, Saturn of Timbucktoo. If I want to be reminded of bad news numbers, I'll go read the business section of any major publication in the world. I come to Saturnfans to share my likes, dislikes, and interests with others, but I don't continuously bad mouth the brand of car I drive. I would also offer that most Saturn owners on here do not particularly care to hear nothing but negatives about one of the top 2 major purchases that most people make in their lifetime.

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Old 03-04-2009, 01:20 PM   #10
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Default Re: Look in the Mirror

Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
To that I say, look at the threads right now that are posted in General Saturn Discussion. Look at the titles, look at the thread starters, and read their posts.

I, for one, do not care to hear anymore how much GM lost yesterday, how much sales are down this minute for Saturn, GM, Saturn of Canada, Saturn of Timbucktoo. If I want to be reminded of bad news numbers, I'll go read the business section of any major publication in the world. I come to Saturnfans to share my likes, dislikes, and interests with others, but I don't continuously bad mouth the brand of car I drive. I would also offer that most Saturn owners on here do not particularly care to hear nothing but negatives about one of the top 2 major purchases that most people make in their lifetime.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion. See, isn't this great!?!

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Old 03-04-2009, 01:34 PM   #11
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Default Re: Look in the Mirror

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClapDaddy View Post
But something that everyone should know. Jill has worked very hard to keep Saturn, Saturn.
If I were in her shoes, I'd have quit in disgust after polymer was eliminated, Spring Hill stopped building Saturns, and the division became an outlet for rebadged foreign cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClapDaddy View Post
In conclusion, LOOK IN THE MIRROR and ask yourself, “What have I done to keep Saturn, the Company that I cared about?”
I bought a new SL2 in 1997 and a used SL2 in 2005. Also, due to my good experience, my parents leased a 1998 SL1 and then a 2002 L200.

More recently, what I have done to try to keep the real Saturn that I cared about is simply to not purchase the rebadged GM stuff that Saturn has been selling in recent years. By buying any of the "Saturn in name only" vehicles, you are supporting GM's decision to kill the real Saturn. Also, I speak my mind in forums like this, even when it pisses people off.

...
Celebrity Eurosport.
When the road gets a little nervous, take one of these.

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Old 03-04-2009, 01:37 PM   #12
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Default Re: Look in the Mirror

I think some of the blame can be pointed right back at Saturn itself. For about a decade, the brand has built a loyal following based on its alternative 'different' American brand stigma. Although Saturn was GM since birth, it was not your normal GM and shared very little with other GM products. I, for one was SOLD on this idea.

But the past 10 years, we've seen the brand go through multiple identity changes as you've outlined. As a result, Saturn has become another GM brand.
If you build a brand with a vocal following, well, expect that to haunt back at you if you upset them enough.

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Old 03-04-2009, 02:06 PM   #13
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Default Re: Look in the Mirror

Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
To that I say, look at the threads right now that are posted in General Saturn Discussion. Look at the titles, look at the thread starters, and read their posts.

I, for one, do not care to hear anymore how much GM lost yesterday, how much sales are down this minute for Saturn, GM, Saturn of Canada, Saturn of Timbucktoo. If I want to be reminded of bad news numbers, I'll go read the business section of any major publication in the world. I come to Saturnfans to share my likes, dislikes, and interests with others, but I don't continuously bad mouth the brand of car I drive. I would also offer that most Saturn owners on here do not particularly care to hear nothing but negatives about one of the top 2 major purchases that most people make in their lifetime.
I wish we could look at things through rose colored glasses.

When times were great, people posted good things. When times are tough, people express that in their postings.

No one knows when this all will hit bottom. If Saturn hangs on for a couple or years - when the upswing begins - people just might start buying cars/Saturns again. And Saturn could just make it. It's a long shot though.

We presently live in a doom and gloom world.

Some of us have lived through many recessions. It certainly is not a sweat time.

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Old 03-04-2009, 03:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: Look in the Mirror

aren't you guys happy these are " such great and exciting times?" ....

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Old 03-04-2009, 03:29 PM   #15
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Default Re: Look in the Mirror

Well, I no longer need the doom and gloom, so I'm outta here (Saturnfans).

Someone let me know if it ever gets better.

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Old 03-04-2009, 03:57 PM   #16
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Default Re: Look in the Mirror

In my user gallery you will find a picture of my driveway some years ago with 3 "S" series Saturns parked in it, the Vue arrived a year or so later. The only make of car we owned. The number I have worked (both inside and outside a Saturn Garage) to keep on the road numbers in the hundreds if not thousands.

Now there is one, a 2005 built in Spring Hill, as I have no desire to support the company that took something unique and amazing and destroyed it with so many poor planning and management decisions I could not even begin to list them all here. And let's not pretend, destroy it they have.

I will not blow artificial sunshine up the collective ..... but I will always speak the truth.

...
Old Saturns never die, people KILL them, so check your damn oil!
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." Albert Einstein

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Old 03-04-2009, 06:02 PM   #17
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Default Re: Look in the Mirror

Wow...some folks are touchy... touchy... because Saturn's latest sales figures got posted in a forum dedicated to ---wait for it----Saturn!!...lolol.

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Old 03-04-2009, 07:39 PM   #18
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Default Re: Look in the Mirror

There are alot of people who have ways of expressing their feelings...whether they be good or bad...we are all owners with one common interest...a car company that made a difference.

I'll agree with Wolfman. As someone myself that currently owns 3 S-Series cars myself...and having owned a 2005 VUE myself...I'll agree that there have been decisions that have really hurt. Not just seeing sales figures that represent down over 50% from last year.

I've met Al a few times at some Columbus meets and I can agree with his viewpoint as well. Ultimately; I am not upset or mad at Jill. How could I be? I have a 94 SC1 with over 300K miles on it...I took care of that car.

I'm more upset with Rick Wagoner and Bob Lutz moreso than anyone else. Even with Wagoner being with GM since 1977, you would think that both him and Lutz would take some choices to think "outside the box" with Saturn. There were too many failed ideas (The Relay comes to mind...too little too late)...rebadging cars was NOT the proper way to go, nor was stagnating a brand for so many years without any updates....then again it was probably some insight somewhere that the higher ups were going to squash Roger Smith's idea to create a competitive car with the Japanese Market.

What has been done has been done, unfortunately. Economically everyone is hurting now big time.

Hindsight is always 20/20 and there are always what if's...I've supported my Saturn dealership over the years, and I have alot of friends in the Service Department. I only hope that in the future; they will have jobs still selling cars whether they are Saturns or not.

For me...I'm still trying to come to the realization that the great experiences I have had the dealership many times over, may now be a thing of the past...

Just my $.35

...
Bryan

94SL2 HCE, "Pearl"

99 SL

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1/15

97SW2 266K Miles
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Always
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Old 03-04-2009, 11:36 PM   #19
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Arrow Re: Look in the Mirror

Great post, Al! Your thoughts have captured what I'm hearing from a lot of folks via e-mail who support Saturn, but are leery of posting their opinion for fear of being attacked or criticized in the forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nababbo
aren't you guys happy these are " such great and exciting times?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by ritz
See, isn't this great!?!
IMO, if criticisms were more constructive in nature, topic discussions would be more productive. Its important to discuss both sides of a story, but there are too many bitter, sarcastic, and off-the-cuff replies that seemingly exist to only berate other members or the topic being discussed. That needs to stop...

Charlie

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Old 03-04-2009, 11:49 PM   #20
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Idea Re: Look in the Mirror

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritz View Post
I think the counterpoint has been made, and made, and made too. Both sides of this discussion are valid. None of what we say here is going to make any difference to the outcome so I don't see any harm in having folks speak their mind (whether it's pro or con).
I agree that both sides need to be discussed, but folks should not be criticized for supporting Saturn or hoping for a brighter future. Over the years, many have wished that Saturn would one day be independent once again. It looks like its finally going to happen, and yet there's a small group of members who continue to sarcastically criticize and bash Saturn before they've even had a chance to reveal their plan for the future. Why not wait and see what their new lineup will look like before slamming them? We can either look at this opportunity as a "glass half full" or "glass half empty" situation. Unfortunately, there are those "few" who seem to always dwell on the negative side of all topics. I sympathize with the vast majority of folks who get tired of reading the same doom-and-gloom posts over and over and over again.

Charlie

...
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