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Old 01-05-2017, 02:35 PM   #141
trottida
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1999 SL2
2001 SL1
Default Re: and so it begins....

Thinking about this some more, the last time I ran the car before I parked it for 4 days was to move it from one side of the driveway to the other. I did not let it warm up at all; it was run for less than a minute from cold start. Oil would have been close to ambient temperature when shut down which was about -8 Celsius (18 Fahrenheit).

I'd still like to read the TSB if anyone has a copy.

...
2001 SL1 MT (428,500 km @ 01/2019)
1999 SL2 MT (272,500 km @ 01/2019)
2011 Suburban LT (120,506 km @ 01/2019)

Past Saturns
1993 SW2 AT (10y)
2001 LW200 MT (3.5y)
1992 SL2 MT (5y)

:canada:

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Old 01-05-2017, 05:46 PM   #142
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1998 SC2
Default Re: and so it begins....

Quote:
Originally Posted by trottida View Post
Huh, I've never come across that before or it never stood out. Do you happen to have the TSB number or a copy of it?
I have a copy of it but it tends to be specific to a 97 engine issue. That was blamed on chamfered exhaust valve guides. It also changed the followers out and the springs. Turns out when you start looking it shows up for many different years. Historically DOHC engines tend to have valve noise that irritates some customers so the design is to use the lightest spring possible. Saturn changed valve springs almost every model year. As I said, high quality oil or full synthetic oil tends to drastically reduce occurrence.

I will hunt up the TSB for you.

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Old 01-05-2017, 06:15 PM   #143
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1998 SC2
Default Re: and so it begins....

Turns out that this is 19 pages of smoke and mirors alng with the meat of the matter. MIL Service Engine Soon Light On with DTCs
P0300 and/or P0301-P0304, Engine Misfire #97-
T-30B - (Jan 6, 2003)

E-mail me and I will send you a copy.

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Old 01-05-2017, 09:47 PM   #144
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2001 SL1
Default Re: and so it begins....

Thanks for the email.

Ya, that is a hard read for sure and I did find it in another post when I searched the TSB number shortly before your email arrived. However, if I read it correct it seems that I would have set of the SES light with codes but it never presented any codes. I don't think it was exhaust valve related but these terms from the TSB seems to fit
Quote:
Misfire caused by cold-start spark plug fuel-fouling
Quote:
Engine Stalls Immediately After Start Followed by Extended Engine Cranking
I spoke with my mechanic a bit about it and he figures that I simply flooded the engine and thus had no spark. It's hard for him to diagnose when he can't replicate it and is just going by my attempted description.

I suppose I'll never know for sure unless it happens again. I've experienced cold start stalls (>-30 Celsius) and subsequent hard starts but nothing like this occurrence at -5 Celsius. For now it's starting and running well; this morning it was -18 Celsius (0 degrees Fahrenheit) and it started like a champ.

...
2001 SL1 MT (428,500 km @ 01/2019)
1999 SL2 MT (272,500 km @ 01/2019)
2011 Suburban LT (120,506 km @ 01/2019)

Past Saturns
1993 SW2 AT (10y)
2001 LW200 MT (3.5y)
1992 SL2 MT (5y)

:canada:

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Old 01-06-2017, 01:05 AM   #145
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1998 SC2
Default Re: and so it begins....

A misfire is only generated if the engine runs long enough. A bunch sticking soon after start will not generate any codes and all you notice is no compression.

Misfire code requires a number of consecutive misfire events in a specific cylinder or for the 300 code a number in several cylinders of low amplitude.

Having several exhaust valves hang open and an engine stall is not going to routinely set a code if you have more than 2 cylinders experience valve sticking simultaneously or close to simultaneously. There are misfire count tables that can be checked post stall to see what happened.

As I said, that TSB is full of CYA.

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Old 01-06-2017, 08:56 AM   #146
trottida
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Default Re: and so it begins....

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
A misfire is only generated if the engine runs long enough. A bunch sticking soon after start will not generate any codes and all you notice is no compression.

Misfire code requires a number of consecutive misfire events in a specific cylinder or for the 300 code a number in several cylinders of low amplitude.

Having several exhaust valves hang open and an engine stall is not going to routinely set a code if you have more than 2 cylinders experience valve sticking simultaneously or close to simultaneously. There are misfire count tables that can be checked post stall to see what happened.

As I said, that TSB is full of CYA.
Okay, that explains it. So it's running well but is there anything else I should do? Should I expect an impending disabling failure or is this likely a one off.

I'm not using synthetic oil nor am I using cheap oil. I was running Pennzoil SAE 5W-30 when this occurred. I'm not 100% sure what my mechanic just put in; I think he uses Quaker State and it would be SAE 5W-30 conventional motor oil.

...
2001 SL1 MT (428,500 km @ 01/2019)
1999 SL2 MT (272,500 km @ 01/2019)
2011 Suburban LT (120,506 km @ 01/2019)

Past Saturns
1993 SW2 AT (10y)
2001 LW200 MT (3.5y)
1992 SL2 MT (5y)

:canada:

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Old 02-27-2017, 01:03 PM   #147
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2001 SL1
Default Re: and so it begins....

So the no start issue I had in January didn't present itself again. The car has been running well; I'm now just over 238K km's.

I had the left front hub bearing assembly replaced with a Timken last week as the bearing was getting noisy. I noted that the Timken bearing was not SKF Made in Spain like the last one I bought; it had no manufacture identified and was stamped China. That's disappointing.

Yesterday I changed the light grey leather interior to black on black ebony cloth interior (from a 99 SL2). I think the dark interior looks better. Still contemplating moving my 10th Anniversary Edition interior over from the SL1 that my daughter has taken over.

I'll take some pictures when the snow is gone and it's all cleaned up again.

...
2001 SL1 MT (428,500 km @ 01/2019)
1999 SL2 MT (272,500 km @ 01/2019)
2011 Suburban LT (120,506 km @ 01/2019)

Past Saturns
1993 SW2 AT (10y)
2001 LW200 MT (3.5y)
1992 SL2 MT (5y)

:canada:

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Old 03-01-2017, 10:06 AM   #148
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1999 SL2
2001 SL1
Default Re: and so it begins....

So I have a dash rattle/metallic buzz that goes away if I press on the dash here with moderate force. The sound seems to be behind and above the glove box although when I removed at dash cover I didn't see of feel anything that would be causing it. It's still there with the dash cover removed and it presents while driving and not while stationery. Any ideas what it might be from? It's not caused by anything in the glove box; I already beat that to death. The engine mounts are fine; there is no excessive vibration typical for bad mounts.



I've attached some pictures of the 99 SL2 ebony interior I swapped in as mentioned in my previous post.



Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20170227_154901.jpg (208.8 KB, 105 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20161110_165118_Small.jpg (66.1 KB, 105 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20170227_154910_small.jpg (96.4 KB, 105 views)

...
2001 SL1 MT (428,500 km @ 01/2019)
1999 SL2 MT (272,500 km @ 01/2019)
2011 Suburban LT (120,506 km @ 01/2019)

Past Saturns
1993 SW2 AT (10y)
2001 LW200 MT (3.5y)
1992 SL2 MT (5y)

:canada:

Last edited by trottida; 03-01-2017 at 10:14 AM..

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Old 05-15-2017, 08:28 AM   #149
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1999 SL2
2001 SL1
Default Re: and so it begins....

I'm starting to work on the SLCraig's 96 SL2 which started this post just over a year ago and somewhat morphed into another engine swap/AT to MT swap project.

In the first post mentioned that the subframe was cracked and needed to be replaced. Here are some photos of the problem area (the typical issue). I have 2 good subframes in storage and I'm getting ready to change it out.

Also on the todo list
  • move front spindles over from parts car
  • 1 front bearing
  • 2 front rotors
  • 2 rear brake shoes
  • replace battery (moved it to 99 SL2)
  • left rear brake line
  • rear bushings
  • 2 tires
  • 1 front marker light
  • headliner missing (need to find one)
  • replace sunroof motor
  • A/C repaired (optional)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20170506_170239.jpg (137.8 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20170506_170306.jpg (151.2 KB, 19 views)

...
2001 SL1 MT (428,500 km @ 01/2019)
1999 SL2 MT (272,500 km @ 01/2019)
2011 Suburban LT (120,506 km @ 01/2019)

Past Saturns
1993 SW2 AT (10y)
2001 LW200 MT (3.5y)
1992 SL2 MT (5y)

:canada:

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Old 04-30-2018, 11:01 AM   #150
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1999 SL2
2001 SL1
Default Re: and so it begins....

Just an update. No progress on the 96 SL2 and I'm thinking I may abandon the project. The 99 SL2 is running well an I plan to refresh the front suspension this spring.

...
2001 SL1 MT (428,500 km @ 01/2019)
1999 SL2 MT (272,500 km @ 01/2019)
2011 Suburban LT (120,506 km @ 01/2019)

Past Saturns
1993 SW2 AT (10y)
2001 LW200 MT (3.5y)
1992 SL2 MT (5y)

:canada:

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Old 04-30-2018, 12:36 PM   #151
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1998 SL2
Default Re: and so it begins....

Your interior swap looks great!

...
I'm not worthy to grovel in the shadow of Signmaster's wisdom

11/2016 red 2002 5 spd SC2 141k DD
7/2010 Craigslist white 1997 SC2 project
12/2008 eBay silver 1998 SL2 5 spd 102k, now 201k+ miles

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Old 04-30-2018, 01:51 PM   #152
trottida
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1999 SL2
2001 SL1
Default Re: and so it begins....

Quote:
Originally Posted by alordofchaos View Post
Your interior swap looks great!
Thanks. I'm debating black leather SC2 seats with seat heater upgrades. I still have the grey leather interior in storage and for sale. Nobody seems to have interest in them even though they are in good shape.

...
2001 SL1 MT (428,500 km @ 01/2019)
1999 SL2 MT (272,500 km @ 01/2019)
2011 Suburban LT (120,506 km @ 01/2019)

Past Saturns
1993 SW2 AT (10y)
2001 LW200 MT (3.5y)
1992 SL2 MT (5y)

:canada:

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Old 04-30-2018, 02:23 PM   #153
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1998 SL2
Default Re: and so it begins....

Tough call. My '98 seats were pretty comfy year round. Then again, matching leather to the steering, brake handle, and shifter is nice, too

I like my '02 SC2's leather seats, except in shorts season. And when the summer sun happens to be on them for a while, it is much hotter to the feel than cloth seats (I'm pretty good at remembering putting up sun shades in the windshield when I park)

Buying some window vent shades in a month or two, too, so that will help with interior heat buildup as I'll be able to leave windows cracked without fear of being rained on

...
I'm not worthy to grovel in the shadow of Signmaster's wisdom

11/2016 red 2002 5 spd SC2 141k DD
7/2010 Craigslist white 1997 SC2 project
12/2008 eBay silver 1998 SL2 5 spd 102k, now 201k+ miles

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Old 04-30-2018, 02:36 PM   #154
trottida
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1999 SL2
2001 SL1
Default Re: and so it begins....

Quote:
Originally Posted by alordofchaos View Post
Tough call. My '98 seats were pretty comfy year round. Then again, matching leather to the steering, brake handle, and shifter is nice, too

I like my '02 SC2's leather seats, except in shorts season. And when the summer sun happens to be on them for a while, it is much hotter to the feel than cloth seats (I'm pretty good at remembering putting up sun shades in the windshield when I park)

Buying some window vent shades in a month or two, too, so that will help with interior heat buildup as I'll be able to leave windows cracked without fear of being rained on
I have black leather 10th Anniversary seats in my 2001 SL1 and I haven't found it to be a problem as long as there are seat heaters for the winter months.

...
2001 SL1 MT (428,500 km @ 01/2019)
1999 SL2 MT (272,500 km @ 01/2019)
2011 Suburban LT (120,506 km @ 01/2019)

Past Saturns
1993 SW2 AT (10y)
2001 LW200 MT (3.5y)
1992 SL2 MT (5y)

:canada:

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Old 05-24-2018, 10:59 AM   #155
trottida
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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1999 SL2
2001 SL1
Default Re: and so it begins....

I replaced both control arms on the 99 SL2 which eliminated the annoying clunk-ity clunk that I've been chasing for a while now. Everything looked tight however when I removed the sway bar bolt you could see gaps between the bushing and the sway bar end. What a relief getting rid of that noise! Now if I can only stop my sunroof from rattling...

I have new Monro Quick Struts and tie rod ends waiting to be installed but I may hold off until black-fly season has moved on.

As a side note, I made an error when ordering my front struts from Rock Auto and now I have a set of rear struts for sale if anyone is interested. I'm asking $220 CAD for the pair which is about $40 less than what I paid.

...
2001 SL1 MT (428,500 km @ 01/2019)
1999 SL2 MT (272,500 km @ 01/2019)
2011 Suburban LT (120,506 km @ 01/2019)

Past Saturns
1993 SW2 AT (10y)
2001 LW200 MT (3.5y)
1992 SL2 MT (5y)

:canada:

Last edited by trottida; 05-24-2018 at 11:13 AM..

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Old 05-28-2018, 12:11 PM   #156
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1999 SL2
2001 SL1
Default Re: and so it begins....

I have been tripping a P0137 code on the 99 SL2 which is persistently coming back usually while coming off a long highway run. I have been clearing the code and it comes back after a few hundred kilometers. It seems to never come up doing city driving. I understand this is the rear O2 sensor and could be either wiring, exhaust leak or bad O2 sensor. I'm going to quickly check the condition of the wires and exhaust pipes/joints and if okay throw in an O2 sensor from my parts car and see what happens. Let me know if you have any other suggestions.

...
2001 SL1 MT (428,500 km @ 01/2019)
1999 SL2 MT (272,500 km @ 01/2019)
2011 Suburban LT (120,506 km @ 01/2019)

Past Saturns
1993 SW2 AT (10y)
2001 LW200 MT (3.5y)
1992 SL2 MT (5y)

:canada:

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Old 05-28-2018, 01:05 PM   #157
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2001 SC2
Default Re: and so it begins....

Worst case: bad PCM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1999 S-Series FSM, Document ID# 1208224
The heated rear oxygen sensor (HO2S) consists of a zirconia electrolyte between 2 platinum plates. When the sensor reaches approximately 318C (600F), it becomes an electrical source that responds to the oxygen content in the exhaust. The PCM produces a bias voltage of approximately 450 millivolts on the oxygen sensor circuit. When the sensor is cold, its internal resistance is extremely high, therefore the PCM recognizes the bias as an open circuit. As the sensor warms up, the internal resistance decreases. When the sensor reaches approximately 318C (600F), it starts producing a voltage based on the oxygen content in the exhaust stream. Refer to DTC P0141 for heater circuit operation.

Conditions for Setting the DTC

Important
The HO2S signal is continuously checked once the above conditions have been met for 0.5 seconds.


DTC P0137 will set if the HO2S voltage is lower than 25 mV for 100 seconds

OR

HO2S voltage is less than 291 mV in power enrichment (PE) mode for 30 seconds when:

The system is in closed loop mode.
No other engine sensor or misfire DTCs have been set.
The commanded A/F ratio is approximately 14.7:1.
Diagnostic Aids

Important
Do not apply grease or any material in the HO2S connector or alter the wiring in any way. The wires carry reference air to the sensor used to determine the difference in oxygen from the exhaust gas to the atmosphere.


Possible Causes
If a front O2S DTC and a rear HO2S DTC are set, diagnose the front O2S fault first. A diagnosed from O2S DTC may lead to a mechanical or fuel system failure which set the rear HO2S DTC.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P0137 Diagnostic Chart.jpg (43.2 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg HO2S Wiring Diagram.jpg (47.8 KB, 2 views)

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Old 08-07-2018, 09:09 AM   #158
trottida
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1999 SL2
2001 SL1
Default Re: and so it begins....

Changed out the lower trans mount on the 99 SL2. Here's the difference between a 19 year old OEM mount and a new OEM mount.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg 99 SL2 Trans Mount Comparison.jpg (174.7 KB, 55 views)

...
2001 SL1 MT (428,500 km @ 01/2019)
1999 SL2 MT (272,500 km @ 01/2019)
2011 Suburban LT (120,506 km @ 01/2019)

Past Saturns
1993 SW2 AT (10y)
2001 LW200 MT (3.5y)
1992 SL2 MT (5y)

:canada:

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Old 08-07-2018, 10:32 AM   #159
cgg17
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 609

1995 SL2
1999 SL2
Default Re: and so it begins....

The metallic rattle/chirping is easy. Had the same issue with my dads 99. Pull the dash cover and then the look at the metal tab with the bolt facing you towards the right side of the airbag area. Tighten it and be done.

...
1994 Sl2 5spd: 56,576 (Totaled 1/10/2018)
1995 Sl2 5spd Manual Swap: 150,062
1999 Sl2 4spd: 98,8xx

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Old 08-07-2018, 11:01 AM   #160
trottida
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1999 SL2
2001 SL1
Default Re: and so it begins....

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgg17 View Post
The metallic rattle/chirping is easy. Had the same issue with my dads 99. Pull the dash cover and then the look at the metal tab with the bolt facing you towards the right side of the airbag area. Tighten it and be done.
Yep, I posted that somewhere with photos and a video. I should have added it to this post in followup.

Here it is.....
Gen2 Dash Rattle

...
2001 SL1 MT (428,500 km @ 01/2019)
1999 SL2 MT (272,500 km @ 01/2019)
2011 Suburban LT (120,506 km @ 01/2019)

Past Saturns
1993 SW2 AT (10y)
2001 LW200 MT (3.5y)
1992 SL2 MT (5y)

:canada:

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

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