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Old 05-30-2013, 03:18 PM   #21
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasy View Post
is the A/C pump same on 2.2 and 3.5 engines or is this a problem only associated with the 3.6 engine?
I don't follow too many 2.2 AC threads so don't know if they have a low RPM cooling issue.

I believe the 2.2 and 3.5 have different compressors - they are illustrated differently. I have a part number list somewhere - search continues.

The 3.5 compressor must be removed from engine to access the valve cover. However, if the 2.2 illustration is accurate, it appears the valve cover could be removed without removing the compressor.

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Old 05-30-2013, 04:00 PM   #22
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

well, fed ex just dropped off the parts, i'll be getting the recovery machine tonight and if all goes well tomorrow afternoon i'll be reporting on this myself. far2grumpy pm sent...

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Old 05-30-2013, 06:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

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well, fed ex just dropped off the parts, i'll be getting the recovery machine tonight and if all goes well tomorrow afternoon i'll be reporting on this myself. far2grumpy pm sent...
Got the PM but need email address - I just sent you my address so a quick response should hook us up.

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Old 05-31-2013, 03:25 PM   #24
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

well my 3 year old issue is finally resolved. got the valve replaced last night, vacumed and charged this morning and just like that my a/c is cold in traffic again.

goose thank you so much for being the guinea pig on this. my wife couldnt be happier.

gene thanks for the writeup and pics. i had already removed the compressor when i got your email, your writeup would have definitely made the process easier.

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Old 06-02-2013, 02:09 PM   #25
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluthng View Post
well my 3 year old issue is finally resolved. got the valve replaced last night, vacumed and charged this morning and just like that my a/c is cold in traffic again.
fdryer ... could you share your thoughts regarding the purpose of this valve and why changing (valve, spring and filter) would make such a dramatic difference in low RPM AC operation?

Its not often that I do anything to an automobile that results in such immediate (and so far - sustained difference).

I didn't do a complete compressor removal - just unbolted and lowered to access the rear cover - so I don't have any quality photos of the operation.

One item which is not clear in any photo is the small notch - or channel - between the filter socket and the larger valve cavity. This path is so small I can't imagine it handles the full amount of refrigerant.

Here are a few thumbnails ... the last photo made the change worthwhile ... the HVAC fan was on low and engine was around 720 RPM - temp before change was 30 higher.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 3.5 AC Scroll Valve Loc.jpg (148.6 KB, 310 views)
File Type: jpg 100_3763.JPG (142.3 KB, 277 views)
File Type: jpg 100_3769.JPG (77.4 KB, 236 views)
File Type: jpg Old Scroll Valve Parts.jpg (147.0 KB, 258 views)
File Type: jpg 100_3788.JPG (191.8 KB, 220 views)

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Old 06-02-2013, 04:08 PM   #26
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

I think I hate you for making me research information......

I've been following this thread since the beginning and in awe by the response of repairs. As with anyone else wanting to save on costs of any a/c repairs, Vues seem to have this peculiar problem with faulty scroll control valves. I was not aware, as I am just another member here, that behind the plate covering the valve also contained a mesh filter. I'd have to ask anyone here if they know their Vues use a scroll or variable displacement compressor. My familiarity with vehicle compressors ended with vdc's and am not aware if scroll compressors are used for vehicle a/c. Aside from this, the replacement of the brass(?) valve and filter doesn't seem to have an explanation, yet. I've noticed past threads, especially one with a picture showing a leaking dye stained compressor specifically leaking from the back plate. Being conservative, I refrained from commenting as a leak can be from a worn seal. Knowing that a plate is covering something accessible only leads me to believe that there's more going on behind that plate. Being curious, I was waiting until something would occur to push me into searching for answers and the pictures of old parts helps tremendously. Thank you f2g for providing them as that was what I needed before researching began.

It appears that Ford already had issues with their compressors going back to 2010 (posting from a member in the ackits forums) with similar results; http://www.autoacforum.com/messagevi...threadid=22170. Initial searches came back with this one long post but without any technical explanation of failure. There doesn't seem to be an explanation of control valve failure other than some scuffing on the brass valve. My failure to find a technical explanation is the correlation of higher low pressures found here (low side pressures are normally regulated to around 30 psi) and the control valve/filter replacement that effectively repairs these compressors back to factory condition. Whether the filter or valve is the fault remains unexplained, to me. The thermal expansion valve is also considered in this problem and my reason for hesitation or comments. I'm not about to suggest anything I can't do myself if I can't see a clear reason for replacement of expensive parts. All posts to date about Vue a/c systems seemed to be no different than most other posts about a/c problems except for where it boiled down to either a compressor or txv suspicion. Txv's rarely fail but compressors will due to the sophistication in design and technical operation. You'd have to hold a gun to my head before I would suggest compressor replacement. As it turns out, Vue compressors are one of the hard faults as time goes by, adding to the short list of leaks occurring to the majority of vehicle a/c problems. Hard fault being the control valve and filter as the least expensive repair - the way I would go too.

I'm going out on a limb and making a guess that the filter, unknown to me to be part of some compressors in Vues, is performing its job to remove contaminants from normal operation and the valve and/or spring degrades over time in combination, failing to maintain low suction pressures needed to allow compressors to operate correctly. In combination with reports from members of perfectly good a/c systems never serviced before, years of normal useage, and slowly degrading in idle cooling while working adequately at speed, seems to point to wear and tear in Vue a/c systems with a new wrinkle - worn out control valve, spring and dirty filter. Until I can find a more definitive reason for this specific type of failure, that's the best I can offer for now.

So, do Vue a/c compressors use scroll or variable displacement? This may help narrow down faults. I'm, reluctantly, open to comments and criticisms...........

Kudos to goose737700 for being the guinea pig and leading the way to a less expensive repair.

Last edited by fdryer; 06-02-2013 at 04:16 PM..

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Old 06-02-2013, 04:48 PM   #27
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

Your comments are welcome and most valuable as usual.

Following extracted from FSM (read before but didn't pay attention I guess) - it sort of indicates the Vue compressor is both (beats me).

The compressor is a variable displacement scroll type pump. The compressor uses a control valve to vary its displacement from 6.5 percent (9cc) to 100 percent (105cc).

I recall one member (post # 14) only changed the valve (and gasket) with satisfactory results. Ugh.

P.S. There are three more 3.5 Vue's in my family. Guess who just ordered a couple more AC valve kits. I've found that if I'm prepared for something to happen - it usually does not.

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Last edited by far2grumpy; 06-02-2013 at 04:56 PM..

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Old 06-02-2013, 05:53 PM   #28
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

Variable displacement scroll compressors? I do recall reading this when I had access to service manuals too. This confirms a new/old issue, with Ford having the early lead on their scroll compressors failing. It would appear that vehicle scroll compressors have their own age related problems associated with control valve/spring/filter replacement.

As with any new found repairs not discussed by any car manufacturer unless its in their service bulletins, members sharing their experiences is the only trial and error test for DIY outcomes. This looks like the fix for the cheapest possible repair.

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Old 06-03-2013, 01:05 PM   #29
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

Thanks for your input Fdryer, I remember discussing this with you last year, You seem to be the resident guru on ac issues. my valve came only with a spring , valve and O-ring, but it seems to work just fine, actually we turn it off periodically. I wonder about that filter though, I noticed it's location just before I put the plate on, and wondered what it was. Thinking back I'm sure it has some contamination on it because I noticed it was somewhat odd and fibrous. I guess we'll see how long it lasts, but at this point I do not see the need for breaking into the system again.

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Old 06-03-2013, 04:16 PM   #30
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

I deny any and all knowledge of whatever I said in the past, present and future!? That should cover everything unless I need a lawyer to use better terms of 'plausible deniability'.......................

A world of change from last year and now; http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=179161 and http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=182341. If this was what you referred to then a sea change occurred with you leading the way for all others with Vue a/c problems exactly as you and others described. Without your valuable input, more Vue owners will be replacing compressors and/or txv's for no reason when it appears to be the scroll valve/spring/filter that fails. A much less costly repair than wholesale compressor replacement. I wish my L300 has this issue but troubleshooting has shown a leak requiring the discharge hose be replaced. I guess 10 years of trouble free service is nothing to complain about.

Whether you like it or not, future Vue a/c issues using similar descriptions will be referred to your post as the best low cost solution. There's already another Vue thread discussing low cooling at idle...............http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...70#post1984670

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Old 06-04-2013, 01:25 AM   #31
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

I wish I'd have known this was also an issue with the Vue otherwise I'd have suggested it earlier. The early Equinox/Torrent is also prone to this issue, and someone posted this fix a couple years ago on the Chevy forums. Glad to hear it is working here too.

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Old 06-04-2013, 02:59 PM   #32
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Without your valuable input, more Vue owners will be replacing compressors and/or txv's for no reason when it appears to be the scroll valve/spring/filter that fails.
Goose is my idol.

I'm now leaning toward the valve spring as the significant culprit ... just because of compression differences in old and new springs.

I just received another valve kit ($30 insurance policy for another family Vue) and was able to compare compression of new spring in kit (25 pounds) to old spring removed from 07 Vue ... which compressed at 15 pounds.

I don't understand the role of these parts but a 10 pound difference in spring tension is significant regardless of mission.

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Old 06-04-2013, 04:05 PM   #33
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

Ahh, more information for the idle mind (mine). I haven't found much info on the plain variable displacement compressors awhile back other than disassembling a donor compressor for an up close examination. VDC's use a copper bellows arrangement to adjust displacement. Its almost another mystery about scroll/vdc's and the role that large brass valve/spring does. I'm presuming the scroll control valve adjusts displacement too.

My theory is based on little displacement = little cooling, larger displacement = more cooling. Varying displacement becomes an exercise in mechanically controlling displacement from pressures. Things get complicated/compounded due to varying compressor speeds.

I too agree that the spring seems to be the main issue, especially when you measured and found large differences in tension. Reverse engineering is always fascinating without a formal education..

Last edited by fdryer; 06-04-2013 at 04:10 PM..

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Old 06-04-2013, 07:18 PM   #34
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

I am going to change mine on Thursday. I do not quite get why mine did not come with a gasket though. Anyway, I will let you know it works out with using the existing gasket. Also, the compressor bolts will be a biotch on my 320K miles Vue huh? Any tips on getting those puppies turning a little easier?

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by far2grumpy View Post
Goose is my idol.

I'm now leaning toward the valve spring as the significant culprit ... just because of compression differences in old and new springs.

I just received another valve kit ($30 insurance policy for another family Vue) and was able to compare compression of new spring in kit (25 pounds) to old spring removed from 07 Vue ... which compressed at 15 pounds.

I don't understand the role of these parts but a 10 pound difference in spring tension is significant regardless of mission.

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Old 06-04-2013, 09:30 PM   #35
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

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I am going to change mine on Thursday. I do not quite get why mine did not come with a gasket though. Anyway, I will let you know it works out with using the existing gasket. Also, the compressor bolts will be a biotch on my 320K miles Vue huh? Any tips on getting those puppies turning a little easier?

Thanks
The three attach bolts for my compressor were not that tight ... two of the three were easy to get at and out. You'll need to remove the suction and discharge hoses (one bolt for fitting holding both) to get at top bolt nearest the cat-con.

I'll attached the checklist I put together to make the next Vue a bit easier.

MAY 30, 2013

SCROLL VALVE REPLACEMENT

Recover refrigerant

Remove induction tube and air cleaner assembly (remove IAT sensor from air box - pulls out)

Remove accessory drive belt

Raise front of Vue with floor jack (I use center of front tube of cradle with a small piece of 2X4)

Put jack-stands under the two rear cradle attach bolts (each side of Vue)

Loosen two front cradle bolts approximately 1/2 inch - lower floor jack (improves access to compressor bolts)

Remove bolt (8mm) holding the AC suction and discharge hoses to the compressor

Move compressor hoses to access one of two upper bolts holding compressor to engine (don't damage AC seals - unless you have new ones)

Remove three bolts (13mm) holding AC compressor to engine (two upper and one lower)

Lower rear of compressor to provide access to diamond shaped cover plate

Remove two bolts (10mm) holding rear cover in place - the cover is under a small amount of spring tension

Remove the old scroll valve, spring, gasket and filter assembly

Check for any debris in / around the valve compartment

I used residual compressor oil to lubricate the new valve and spring and put mineral oil on diamond cover gasket and inline filter assembly

Install the spring, valve, gasket and filter

Install diamond shaped valve cover bolts

Attach compressor to engine

Attach suction and discharge hoses to compressor

Tighten cradle bolts

Install accessory drive belt

Install air filter and induction tube - insert IAT in air filter box

I used a pump to vacuum AC system - pump ran for two hours and I left gauges on overnight to verify no loss of vacuum.

The compressor won't run without refrigerant pressure so you need to remove the AC clutch relay and jump pins 30 and 87 to engage the clutch.

You must also remove the V6 cooling fan relay and jump pins 30 and 87 so the cooling fans draw air across the condenser

I let my 3.5 suck in two 12 oz can of R134a - the gauges and thermometer were indicating great performance at idle.

According to FSM the system requires 1.5 pounds of refrigerant (so I dumped another 4 oz into the system).

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Old 06-05-2013, 12:25 PM   #36
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

"The compressor won't run without refrigerant pressure so you need to remove the AC clutch relay and jump pins 30 and 87 to engage the clutch.

You must also remove the V6 cooling fan relay and jump pins 30 and 87 so the cooling fans draw air across the condenser"


I did not do this, i just added the refrigerant to the system, let the vacuum, draw it in and then engaged the compressor and it emptied that can like nobody's business lol, as for the fan engagement I cannot remember if it cam on or not I assume so.

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Old 06-05-2013, 02:15 PM   #37
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goose737700 View Post
"The compressor won't run without refrigerant pressure so you need to remove the AC clutch relay and jump pins 30 and 87 to engage the clutch.

You must also remove the V6 cooling fan relay and jump pins 30 and 87 so the cooling fans draw air across the condenser"


I did not do this, i just added the refrigerant to the system, let the vacuum, draw it in and then engaged the compressor and it emptied that can like nobody's business lol, as for the fan engagement I cannot remember if it cam on or not I assume so.
According to AC theory of operations the cooling fan would be enabled once the AC had sufficient R134a to engage the pressure sensor.

I put two cans in with relays jumped - then shut it down - installed relays and all was normal from that point.

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Old 06-06-2013, 04:41 PM   #38
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Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

Well boys and girls, the elusive AC at stop lights has been solved. That valve worked! I started out at 69 degrees from center vent prior to repairs in a 70 degree ambient temp.

After repairs, 81 degree ambient temp and the center vent read 40 degrees at idle of course!

Grump...you hit nail on the head. It took right at 3 hours less the recharge and vac work.

My only snag is one compressor bolt broke when turning it out . We just put it back together and are hoping for the best.

It is just amazing to have these damn shops saying 'weak compressor' and wanting $500 tp replace everything.

Now my 321K 2004 Vue 3.5L is back to like new condition.

Thanks to that great post!

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Old 07-18-2013, 07:55 AM   #39
cjhsa
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Location: Michigan
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2007 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

Very odd, but that A/C Parts House link has multiple site (DNS) names, but the old link doesn't work correctly. This one does:

http://www.techchoiceparts.com/inven...-control-valve

You'll notice the sites look very similar (it's the same business in Texas).

...
2007 VUE AWD V6 3.5L

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Old 07-21-2013, 05:15 PM   #40
02BlackSC2
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Location: Oklahoma
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2002 SC2
2005 VUE Red Line
Default Re: Lo Idle AC mystery solved.

So does the new filter and spring come with this valve?

acpartshouse.com/categories/air-conditioning-and-heating?page=1

Sorry can't post url's please copy and paste.

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