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Old 10-17-2020, 01:46 PM   #181
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

Still, it has been a very long thread. I agree that a re-statement of the symptoms would be helpful, so that we don't have to wade through all posts, maybe missing something. Do not just copy/paste from previous, think and write the symptoms from scratch now; there may be some subtle but important differences.

Now that the MAP issue seems resolved, pay close attention to what spark advance does when you go WOT. the MAP reading is not too important, we will assume it always goes to about 14.7 psia at WOT. Vehicle speed also does not matter much, but it will be easier to keep the engine at "steady state" to watch the WOT spark advance if you have the trans in the highest gear possible.
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Old 10-17-2020, 02:04 PM   #182
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

I also agree thatís a good idea. I have to drive the car about 200 miles today. Now that the MAP is resolved and Iím not focusing on that Iíll start from scratch again. Iíll give an update on whatís going on probably tomorrow. Plus I want to thank you all for sticking through 10 pages of this car kicking my butt!
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Old 10-17-2020, 07:24 PM   #183
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

Here are two pictures.

One is going up a grade at 40mph where you can see the MAP, TPS and ignition advance. The other is at 55 going WOT.

Barometer is 30.36 my air box more open than factory and the 15.1 is probably a ram air effect. I have seen anywhere from 14.3 to 15.1. I actually think 15.1 is the sensor maxed out.
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Old 10-17-2020, 09:46 PM   #184
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1996SL11.9L View Post
Here are two pictures.

One is going up a grade at 40mph where you can see the MAP, TPS and ignition advance. The other is at 55 going WOT.

Barometer is 30.36 my air box more open than factory and the 15.1 is probably a ram air effect. I have seen anywhere from 14.3 to 15.1. I actually think 15.1 is the sensor maxed out.
What gear were you in for each one?
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Old 10-17-2020, 09:51 PM   #185
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

Well, I made a mistake before. I should have said I like to see spark advance and engine rpm at WOT. Yes, if you give vehicle speed and overall gearing (revolutions/mile) then I can calculate back to rpm can work, but it is easier to just give rpm direct. Regardless, I neglected to ask for rpm before, or any way to calculate it.
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Old 10-18-2020, 03:36 AM   #186
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

So starting from scratch.

Symptoms are sputtering at idle, bucking and surging on acceleration and deceleration. Doesnít do it on a flat road while holding a steady speed but will buck going up an incline while holding speed. I have a P0440 popping up the last few days but if I retighten the gas cap it usually goes away within a few miles. Gas cap is new.

What is new: plugs (Copper AC delco), wires, Ignition coils, fuel filter and IAC.
Tested: EGR, TPS fuel pressure, fuel injectors and vacuum leak. Areas of concern was the fuel pump deadhead pressure was 2 psi below spec but engine running and driving under load it was well within spec.

I recorded a 30-60 mph roll in 5th gear at WOT and the results are.

Speed 30 rpm 1,100 MAP 14.3 ign 11 knock .9
35 1,300 14.2 6 0.0
40 1,500 14.2 1 0.0
45 1,600 14.0 -2 0.0
50. 1,750 14.7 -2 1.5
55 2,000 14.9 -4 .9
60 2,200 14.9 -8 0.0
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Old 10-18-2020, 04:03 AM   #187
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

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What gear were you in for each one?
5th for both. Around 2000rpm at 55mph say 1500rpm at 40mpg. I can confirm the 40mph rpm on way to work this morning.
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Old 10-18-2020, 11:59 AM   #188
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

Those negative spark advance numbers puzzle me. I think spark should never go negative, except in over-run when engine braking is wanted.

Gotta think about this...
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Old 10-18-2020, 12:27 PM   #189
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

Just out of curiosity, have you tried removing the front o2 sensor or checked for too much back pressure in the exhaust. I have not read all ten pages so forgive me if it's already been checked.
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Old 10-18-2020, 01:10 PM   #190
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

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Those negative spark advance numbers puzzle me. I think spark should never go negative, except in over-run when engine braking is wanted.

Gotta think about this...
It will go negative under a major knock retard condition. I've seen it many times on my 96 and see if a few times on my 02.

With the adaptive knock retard program if sensed knock in the same condition before it will modify the spark table to prevent it. But its constantly looking at the sensor to try and het it as high as it can.
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Old 10-18-2020, 01:32 PM   #191
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

OP, disconnect the knock sensor again and see if you still get that negative spark advance.
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Old 10-18-2020, 02:51 PM   #192
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

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Just out of curiosity, have you tried removing the front o2 sensor or checked for too much back pressure in the exhaust. I have not read all ten pages so forgive me if it's already been checked.
Itís been mentioned but I havenít tried it.
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Old 10-18-2020, 02:59 PM   #193
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

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OP, disconnect the knock sensor again and see if you still get that negative spark advance.
Ok, I’ll try that. Also yesterday when I was leaving a light when I got into 3rd gear I put the gas about 3/4 down and it sounded like a can of bolts getting shaken. I’ve heard the car knock before on takeoff but this was the worst it’s ever done it. Also another symptom I mentioned before but I’ll mention again since you brought up negative timing is it will go all the way to -30’s at idle. Car doesn’t do it when it’s cold. When the engine starts to warm up is when the timing jumps around. Anywhere from -10 to - 32 at idle.
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Old 10-18-2020, 04:44 PM   #194
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

Whatís the number on your knock parameter at idle when itís jumping around?

It uses the back ground noise at idle as a base reference to detect knock when itís not at idle.
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Old 10-18-2020, 05:39 PM   #195
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

Knock at idle is 0.0. If I put the car in neutral and coast the idle is at 1,050 and the timing is steady at -20 to -21 degrees. Soon as I come to a stop the idle goes to 750 and thatís when the timing starts to jump all over.
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Old 10-19-2020, 08:05 AM   #196
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

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sounded like a can of bolts getting shaken
Timing chain????
...
94 SL2 Automatic
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:06 AM   #197
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

Maybe for the noise, but it would have no effect on spark timing and probably not account for the other symptoms.

That spark "wander" at idle may be normal. Spark advance is often used along with the IAC valve to keep idle speed correct. Spark can respond much quicker than the IAC valve. I can't say if the Saturn PCM is programmed to do that, but it is a possibility.

While confessing that I have been too lazy to connect a scanner and go driving to see how my Saturns control spark, I have to say I am leery of the retard figures being discussed. Even for knock control, advance less than zero should never be needed. Again, I have seen retard (on other type engines) during coasting, but never when power is supposed to be being produced.

Have you used a timing light to verify the spark timing is as indicated by Scangauge?
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Old 10-19-2020, 11:05 AM   #198
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

On my way home last night driving at 40 in 5th going up a long hill I have it some throttle to maintain speed and my advance went from 30 to 24 with zero knock retard showing. Then I gave it more throttle and my knock retard showed 36 and my ignition advance went all the way down to 8. As I accelerated up the hill the knock number lowered to zero and the spark slowly walked its way back up to 28.
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Old 10-19-2020, 12:54 PM   #199
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

Those numbers are reasonable. I am taking exception to your reply #190, where you claim spark advance goes negative (ATDC) under some knock conditions.

PS: I interpret the below to mean spark advance retarded back to 8 BTDC; still a "positive" number

"... my ignition advance went all the way down to 8."
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Old 10-19-2020, 01:36 PM   #200
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Default Re: Surging and very high compression

Quote:
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Those numbers are reasonable. I am taking exception to your reply #190, where you claim spark advance goes negative (ATDC) under some knock conditions.

PS: I interpret the below to mean spark advance retarded back to 8 BTDC; still a "positive" number

"... my ignition advance went all the way down to 8."
Yes i me positive in that situation. But, Iíve seen negative numbers as well. I think I even questioned OldNuc about it years ago with my 96 that had major carbon buildup on my pistons. Iíve seen negative a few times on my 02. Seen it much more on my 96. Plus there is a reason why the went to a two wire knock sensor around 99 or so. Iíd hear knock on my 96 and the display showed nothing.

Running those special plugs significantly reduced my knock retard activity. Itís all documented in my thread for my 02 or my thread on the ďNot your typical spark plug questionĒ.

Read the patent pdf for saturns active knock retard. It explains it very well.
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